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    1. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 10:37 AM #1
      So I was watching Jay Leno's video on his Monteverdi and I had no idea that inboard brakes were a thing. Makes sense to remove unsprung weight, but would be a pain to service

      Here is the Alfa Romeo 75 transaxle showing inboard brakes:



      This got me thinking about other weird brake formats that have been done, from Audi's "UFO" internal brakes;



      which is similar, but different , to Buell's "Inside out" brake;



      to Mercedes-Benz's brake by wire SBC system;



      So educate me TCL, what other bizzare/interesting braking 'experiments' are there in the world of cars, trucks, bikes, etc?
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    3. Member geofftii2002's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 10:43 AM #2
      Jaguar ran inboard rear brakes for eons - any car with the classic Jaguar independent rear uses inboard brakes.

      Citroen also used them on the DS, and if my fuzzy brain is working properly, the Lotus Elan also had them.
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      06-30-2020 10:44 AM #3
      You covered all of the ones that came to mind right away for me. Jags with IRS had inboard brakes as well, there were a lot of Cobra replicas running around in the 90's with inboard brakes for this reason.


      Didn't you own a V8Q with the UFO brakes at one point, OP?
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    5. Member x(why)z's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 10:47 AM #4
      I think the Hummer h1 also had inboard brakes and maybe the LM002, too? There are vehicles that have drive-shaft brakes, also. I think Leno's giant Rolls has one.

    6. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 11:02 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by x(why)z View Post
      There are vehicles that have drive-shaft brakes, also.
      New to me, google search pulled this (seems popular with the 4x4 crowd as a parking brake)

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    7. 06-30-2020 11:16 AM #6
      some of the custom hot rod crowd used to use Jag rear ends and they were inboard. i also see this huge mud trucks with the super sized tractor tires, they use a single inboard usually on the drive line. I always wondered about stopping distance but thought I heard it has to deal with mud. The brakes would get caked with mud in the traditional behind the wheel so they move them inboard. Not sure if true or not

    8. Member r_fostoria's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 11:21 AM #7
      My dad worked in an import/gray market car garage in the 80s. He was the go-to guy whenever a Jaguar would come in for brake work because he was the quickest one in the shop at replacing the inboard brakes.


    9. Geriatric Member @McMike's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 11:30 AM #8
      ^ and that's why the Jag IRS was popular with hot rodders. LSD, IRS, and it just bolted right in, suspension and all.

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      06-30-2020 12:34 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by x(why)z View Post
      I think the Hummer h1 also had inboard brakes
      It does.
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    11. Member Shmi's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 12:38 PM #10
      Inboard brakes go back a long ways.

      ಠ_ಠ

    12. 06-30-2020 12:51 PM #11
      The AlfaRomeo Alfetta / GTV used the same rear suspension and inboard rear brake design as the 75 did.

      With front wheel drive, the Alfasud used inboard front brakes.

      The humble Citroen 2CV used inboard front brakes.

      The first Subaru to use what became their hallmark layout - longitudinal boxer engine with front wheel drive (extending this to drive the rear as well came later) - was the Subaru 1000 / FF-1. That used inboard front brakes.

    13. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 01:18 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      The AlfaRomeo Alfetta / GTV used the same rear suspension and inboard rear brake design as the 75 did.

      With front wheel drive, the Alfasud used inboard front brakes.

      The humble Citroen 2CV used inboard front brakes.

      The first Subaru to use what became their hallmark layout - longitudinal boxer engine with front wheel drive (extending this to drive the rear as well came later) - was the Subaru 1000 / FF-1. That used inboard front brakes.

      I believe the Alfa Montreal did too.

      What I love about those Alfas, particularly the GTV6 is that they incorporate inboard brakes, a transaxle, and a de Dion tube, and a Watts linkage all on the same car, nevermind the Busso V6. As Petrolicious called it, it's "pornography for engineers."

    14. Member geofftii2002's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 01:33 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I believe the Alfa Montreal did too.

      What I love about those Alfas, particularly the GTV6 is that they incorporate inboard brakes, a transaxle, and a de Dion tube, and a Watts linkage all on the same car, nevermind the Busso V6. As Petrolicious called it, it's "pornography for engineers."

      The Montreal had outboard brakes all around. It was basically a 105/115 Giulia under the skin.
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    15. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 01:40 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by geofftii2002 View Post
      The Montreal had outboard brakes all around. It was basically a 105/115 Giulia under the skin.
      Sorry, you're right. My mind wandered. I was thinking of the SZ, which Harry's Garage recently featured.

    16. How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 01:54 PM #15
      I understand why they existed but I'm glad I've never had to deal with them.
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    17. Member GTaye's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 03:28 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      I understand why they existed but I'm glad I've never had to deal with them.

      My '82 Sprint Veloce 1.5 had inboard front brakes and they were easy. My Alfa dealer helped me source bigger disks/calipers (Alfa 75 parts, maybe?) and there were no wheel-clearance issues tp deal with.

    18. 06-30-2020 03:34 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      I understand why they existed but I'm glad I've never had to deal with them.
      I wonder how they are vs those horrible captive rotors some cars like the early 90s accord had, which I still dont understand the design reasons for those

    19. 06-30-2020 04:11 PM #18
      Why don't any cars (at least performance cars) have inboard brakes? Seems like it would be a great idea for reducing unsprung mass, and as long as the calipers are clocked properly, pad swaps shouldn't be too difficult (thinking of the calipers where you can slot the pads in from the top).

      Is it heat due to being near the differential? I feel like that would be solved with some ducting. I guess they wouldn't look as cool if you just had a big void instead of some flashy brakes.

      I guess rotor changes would be more involved, but a lot of designs already make rotor changes a pain in the butt (like some of the bigger diesel trucks where the rotor hat also has the wheel bearing in it and the axle has to be removed anyways to change it out).

    20. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 04:45 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      I wonder how they are vs those horrible captive rotors some cars like the early 90s accord had, which I still dont understand the design reasons for those
      Had to google that....... holy clap, what level of hell did these pop from



      Germans are white people. Look up #84 on the list of things white people like: Gear. Lots of Gear. We even have gear farkles over here. -Atomicalex

      Upon my word I have had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers. -James Byford McCudden

    21. 06-30-2020 04:49 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Had to google that....... holy clap, what level of hell did these pop from



      Try watching the DIY videos on youtube, it looks like a painful job lol. A local Accord owner that added me on FB looks to have continued using them on his car when there are factory options that do away with them, but I don't think he realized it...

      But I was doing a search on them a few weeks ago and it seems a lot of trucks use them and based on Raguvian post, I think he is talking about the same thing.

    22. 06-30-2020 04:52 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Raguvian View Post
      Why don't any cars (at least performance cars) have inboard brakes? Seems like it would be a great idea for reducing unsprung mass, and as long as the calipers are clocked properly, pad swaps shouldn't be too difficult (thinking of the calipers where you can slot the pads in from the top).

      Is it heat due to being near the differential? I feel like that would be solved with some ducting. I guess they wouldn't look as cool if you just had a big void instead of some flashy brakes.

      I guess rotor changes would be more involved, but a lot of designs already make rotor changes a pain in the butt (like some of the bigger diesel trucks where the rotor hat also has the wheel bearing in it and the axle has to be removed anyways to change it out).
      For front-wheel-drive - It puts higher loads through the CV joints. The layout is ok with a longitudinal engine (transaxle on the centerline of the vehicle without having engine too close nearby) but not so much with a transverse engine - a lot of the time, tight packaging of the driveshaft that runs alongside the engine doesn't leave space for a brake rotor there. I don't think inboard brakes have ever coincided with transverse engine in the same vehicle, although I am quite open to be proven wrong on that point. Longitudinal engine and front-wheel-drive has gone out of favour. Basically Audi and Subaru may have this choice, but few others.

      The Alfasud used the same drivetrain layout as Subaru did - and introduced at almost the same time. Longitudinal liquid-cooled flat-four ahead of the front wheel centerline, transaxle with inboard brakes immediately behind it.

      Brake rotor maintenance becomes a nuisance. You have to disconnect the CV shaft to do it.

      For rear-drive, obviously this only makes sense with independent (or de-dion) suspension, and it just hasn't been a high design priority.

      The packaging of the Alfetta rear-mounted transaxle, inboard brakes adjacent to it, de-Dion axle and its locating arms was quite ingenious.

    23. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 05:01 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Raguvian View Post
      bigger diesel trucks where the rotor hat also has the wheel bearing in it and the axle has to be removed anyways to change it out).

      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      a lot of trucks use them and based on Raguvian post, I think he is talking about the same thing.
      OK, I see what you both are saying;



      Glad I've never had to deal with that sorta thing
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      06-30-2020 05:14 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      For front-wheel-drive - It puts higher loads through the CV joints. .
      Many RWD would have to deal with a CV as well.


      And that load is a concern for safety. Brake a joint or axle and you now have no brakes on that corner.

    25. 06-30-2020 05:14 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Aw614 View Post
      Try watching the DIY videos on youtube, it looks like a painful job lol. A local Accord owner that added me on FB looks to have continued using them on his car when there are factory options that do away with them, but I don't think he realized it...

      But I was doing a search on them a few weeks ago and it seems a lot of trucks use them and based on Raguvian post, I think he is talking about the same thing.
      Yeah, I'm not super familiar with how the design works, but my friend was showing me the front rotors on his older F350 4x4 and the rotor and hub were one piece and weighed something like 70lb each.

      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      For front-wheel-drive - It puts higher loads through the CV joints. The layout is ok with a longitudinal engine (transaxle on the centerline of the vehicle without having engine too close nearby) but not so much with a transverse engine - a lot of the time, tight packaging of the driveshaft that runs alongside the engine doesn't leave space for a brake rotor there. I don't think inboard brakes have ever coincided with transverse engine in the same vehicle, although I am quite open to be proven wrong on that point. Longitudinal engine and front-wheel-drive has gone out of favour. Basically Audi and Subaru may have this choice, but few others.

      The Alfasud used the same drivetrain layout as Subaru did - and introduced at almost the same time. Longitudinal liquid-cooled flat-four ahead of the front wheel centerline, transaxle with inboard brakes immediately behind it.

      Brake rotor maintenance becomes a nuisance. You have to disconnect the CV shaft to do it.

      For rear-drive, obviously this only makes sense with independent (or de-dion) suspension, and it just hasn't been a high design priority.

      The packaging of the Alfetta rear-mounted transaxle, inboard brakes adjacent to it, de-Dion axle and its locating arms was quite ingenious.
      I didn't even think about the transverse applications for FWD. Thanks for the info!

      I guess RWD cars would still need conventional brakes up front (or have CV's just to turn the inboard brakes up front, which would negate any space savings), and would be a packaging issue as you said with engine and other components in the way.

      It would still be cool to see Subaru do it as it seems like they have the only design where the inboard brakes would work on all 4 corners.
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    26. How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      06-30-2020 09:18 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Had to google that....... holy clap, what level of hell did these pop from



      F*ck that.
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      You take that fake rich sled back to the toothless masses and rub their stupid meth faces in your success. Do it for me.

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