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    1. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      09-16-2020 12:00 PM #176
      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      I find it funny that Lexus has a lot of fanboys online, especially you see in Youtube comments, but sales say otherwise when compared to Ze Germans...these guys watched too much Initial D and drank too much bubble tea.
      The Germans have the badge and the design to attract both Chinese billionaire children and pompous white guys alike. Lexus are in a completely different world, imo. I wouldn't call myself a fanboi, but having owned an IS350, there are elements that just don't exist in other makers. Everything feels a step up, even if it's not "latest and greatest". Maybe I'm just a nostalgic bastard.

      I never really had trouble with the trackpad infotainment, and their cars have Carplay/AA now so I'm not sure what the big deal is really.

      Sales don't always mean something is better. Don't forget that 98% of the car-buying public doesn't know squat about what makes a car good in one area or another.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

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      09-16-2020 12:47 PM #177
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      I feel that Lexus hasn't been able to capitalize on the "fun" and sporty aspect of luxury cars. They thrived in the 90s and 2000s because we didn't have AMG/M/S# lite everything and you couldn't get a really great exhaust note with burbles and DSG farts back then for fairly cheap. These buyers don't want old man lux, they want sporty and European.

      Nowadays, Lexus isn't even on my radar. Really underwhelming engines, cramped interiors, a god awful infotainment that made the first gen iDrive look like a MacBook.
      We have to stop twisting and turning the machinations of the car market to validate our beliefs and preferences. If buyers didn't want old man lux, the majority of German luxury vehicles sold wouldn't be non-sport trim with automatics and dieselly 2.0T 4 bangers. The 3 series sales wouldn't be down by more than half in the US, and the non-M gas cars wouldn't have lost a manual option worldwide. Hell, there would be a manual sport sedan available to buy in the US (check- there isn't for the 2021MY). Crossovers wouldn't be so popular. Etc. etc.

      Even if Lexus made the perfect German killing IS, buyers (and peanut gallery comedians like got-rice) would still find reasons to choose inferior German product. Because badge. So why should Lexus even bother? The Japanese have beat the Germans several times in the last 30+ years, and the Germans haven't been knocked off their perch. There are certain aspects of the war that just can't be won.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      09-16-2020 12:51 PM #178
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      I feel that Lexus hasn't been able to capitalize on the "fun" and sporty aspect of luxury cars. They thrived in the 90s and 2000s because we didn't have AMG/M/S# lite everything and you couldn't get a really great exhaust note with burbles and DSG farts back then for fairly cheap. These buyers don't want old man lux, they want sporty and European.

      Nowadays, Lexus isn't even on my radar. Really underwhelming engines, cramped interiors, a god awful infotainment that made the first gen iDrive look like a MacBook.
      Can't argue with that. Lexus still knows the formula for entry level SUV/CUVs (because the bar isn't too high) and front wheel drive luxury sedans (which is pretty much all theirs and favors older buyers), but their rear wheel drive sedans/coupe (and to some extent BOF SUV) business strategy leave to be desired.

      Is Genesis a threat to Lexus? Definitely not with their dealer strategy now, but their cars are getting some more stares that even some loyal Lexus owners have taken notice.

    5. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      09-16-2020 12:54 PM #179
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      There are certain aspects of the war that just can't be won.
      This is where I disagree with you. But to win the war, some Japanese company (at a bare minimum) needs to create a world-killer car. The new Acura TLX Type Sand the "new" IS won't hack it.

      Imagine if Infiniti had actually created a luxury sports sedan based upon the GT-R back in ~2010? (and no, the Red Sport models don't count). Imagine if Lexus had made the GS-F a 600+hp turbo sedan? That's what they're doing now, of course, but it will strategically be released a good decade after the Germans made 600hp sedans.

      I agree with that a high performance car isn't going to magically resurrect any of these companies. But it's a good start, and it builds a halo.
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      09-16-2020 01:01 PM #180
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      We have to stop twisting and turning the machinations of the car market to validate our beliefs and preferences. If buyers didn't want old man lux, the majority of German luxury vehicles sold wouldn't be non-sport trim with automatics and dieselly 2.0T 4 bangers. The 3 series sales wouldn't be down by more than half in the US, and the non-M gas cars wouldn't have lost a manual option worldwide. Hell, there would be a manual sport sedan available to buy in the US (check- there isn't for the 2021MY). Crossovers wouldn't be so popular. Etc. etc.

      Even if Lexus made the perfect German killing IS, buyers (and peanut gallery comedians like got-rice) would still find reasons to choose inferior German product. Because badge. So why should Lexus even bother? The Japanese have beat the Germans several times in the last 30+ years, and the Germans haven't been knocked off their perch. There are certain aspects of the war that just can't be won.
      Peanut gallery really? C'mon there...the problem isn't the cars, its the people that buy them.

      It seems that more luxury car buyers in our country have a mindset kind of like "Doug Demuro" (probably poor example, but he seems to be a Euro fanboy) that get bored of it after 3-4 years (usual a lease period), whereas buyers like "Scotty Kilmer" is representative of a decreasing amount of buyers who are not so conscious and plan to treat their car like a Camry/Corolla.
      Last edited by got-rice; 09-16-2020 at 01:07 PM.

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      09-16-2020 01:13 PM #181
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      This is where I disagree with you. But to win the war, some Japanese company (at a bare minimum) needs to create a world-killer car. The new Acura TLX Type Sand the "new" IS won't hack it.

      Imagine if Infiniti had actually created a luxury sports sedan based upon the GT-R back in ~2010? (and no, the Red Sport models don't count). Imagine if Lexus had made the GS-F a 600+hp turbo sedan? That's what they're doing now, of course, but it will strategically be released a good decade after the Germans made 600hp sedans.

      I agree with that a high performance car isn't going to magically resurrect any of these companies. But it's a good start, and it builds a halo.
      I don't have to imagine. We have previous examples of when the Japanese beat the Germans. I told you how it went in the TLX Type-S thread.

      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I'm tired of this lie. They just need to make it cheaper and better! Then it will succeed!

      OG NSX was objectively better and cheaper than the 964 C2 and absolutely embarassed the 348. Did it "succeed"? No. (And spare me the "they didn't update it" nonsense. It was out for YEARS before the 993 and 355).

      OG Lexus LS embarassed the German establishment for half the price. Not matched, embarrassed!!! 30 years later we are still talking about Lexus as a "second tier" brand.

      OG Infiniti G unleashed the dragon on the E46. OG IS350 was the first regular sport sedan I can remember to do 0-60 in the 4s. German brand apologists immediately pivoted and sprinted to the intangible panic room.... heritage, precision, engineering, yadda ****ing yadda. Then immediately pivoted back to metrics once the E9x 335i came out and the Germans took back the performance metric crown.

      The whole thing is a joke honestly. I don't think Acura is stupid. They know not to fall into the trap of chasing a moving target. They know they can't appeal to emotions through objective superiority. So this thing is probably designed and priced for who they know their actual customers to be. People who buy and hold for a long time, rather than lease for example. People who aren't badge crazy (I am not immune or judging- if I ditch the TLX it will probably be for a German car). People who still prioritize value/content per $, even on a $50K car. Etc. People are looking at this all wrong and completely misreading what's happening IMO. Adamantly! It's annoying.
      Replace Acura with Lexus and TLX Type-S with IS500 and this basically applies here. Would it be cool if all your fantasy killer Japanese sedans came to life? Sure. Would it do jack **** to shake up the German establishment? Absolutely not. It's OK to have hopes and dreams but trying to rationalize them as good business decisions in the face of so much evidence to the contrary just doesn't make any sense.

      To add to this, again as I've said before, German sport sedan sales are way down from their peak, so you're also suggesting the Japanese go all in on a declining market. None of this makes any sense.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      09-16-2020 01:25 PM #182
      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      Peanut gallery really? C'mon there...the problem isn't the cars, its the people that buy them.

      It seems that more luxury car buyers in our country have a mindset kind of like "Doug Demuro" (probably poor example, but he seems to be a Euro fanboy) that get bored of it after 3-4 years (usual a lease period), whereas buyers like "Scotty Kilmer" is representative of a decreasing amount of buyers who are not so conscious and plan to treat their car like a Camry/Corolla.
      I made a conscious decision long ago not to talk cars with anyone who cites or looks at Scotty Kilmer in a positive light. Thanks
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      09-16-2020 01:28 PM #183
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I made a conscious decision long ago not to talk cars with anyone who cites or looks at Scotty Kilmer in a positive light. Thanks
      I definitely do not look at Scotty as a someone who gives good advice...I'm just saying those types of people with a mindset similar to him are the ones that keep the brand #3, because they only care about "reliability", and for those, Lexus rest their laurels. But that model started cracking when some buyers got bored of their products and chose to jump ship. Those 2000 IS and GS owners, have gone to the Germans for their next ride.
      Last edited by got-rice; 09-16-2020 at 01:34 PM.

    10. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      09-16-2020 01:34 PM #184
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't have to imagine. We have previous examples of when the Japanese beat the Germans. I told you how it went in the TLX Type-S thread.

      So maybe try again . . .
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      09-16-2020 01:43 PM #185
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      So maybe try again . . .
      Why? You don't listen to facts or reason. You want Japan to make German killers, no matter the cost or outcome, and nothing will change your mind. I responded mostly out of politeness.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

    12. Member SchnellFowVay's Avatar
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      09-16-2020 01:54 PM #186
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Why? You don't listen to facts or reason. You want Japan to make German killers, no matter the cost or outcome, and nothing will change your mind. I responded mostly out of politeness.
      Why not? It's a different market than it was 20-30 years ago. None of the Japanese behemoths seem to be adding much in the way of electric-car killers. There's no Tesla P100D/Porsche Taycan competitor in the works, that I am aware of.

      Why do you take issue with the fact that I would really, really like the Japanese manufacturers to make something that isn't boring? Other than the Subaru WRX STI (which is dated as holy hell, but still awesome) and the Civic Type-R, and maybe the Acura NSX, what the hell else is out there? Are you seriously not tired of tarted up, reliable, Japanese sedans?
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
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      09-16-2020 02:13 PM #187
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Why not? It's a different market than it was 20-30 years ago. None of the Japanese behemoths seem to be adding much in the way of electric-car killers. There's no Tesla P100D/Porsche Taycan competitor in the works, that I am aware of.
      Yes, it is a different market than it was 2-3 decades ago. Crossovers were new and nowhere as proficient. You could get a luxury sedan with a manual transmission. Driving dynamics and engagement were way more important to the average luxury buyer.

      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Why do you take issue with the fact that I would really, really like the Japanese manufacturers to make something that isn't boring? Other than the Subaru WRX STI (which is dated as holy hell, but still awesome) and the Civic Type-R, and maybe the Acura NSX, what the hell else is out there? Are you seriously not tired of tarted up, reliable, Japanese sedans?
      Well, OK let's break this down a bit. For starters you seem to whittle down automotive excitement to nothing more than numerical superiority and extravagance. And that said numerical superiority is the only reason certain brands are popular, and is all the Japanese need to take the crown. You ignore the times in the past when the Japanese actually did that and still weren't able to take the top spots from the Germans. Typing this all out now I am starting to feel like I'm talking to a brick wall. Like I said you dismiss any facts or logic that doesn't support your dream, which kind of begs the question as to why you "discuss" this at all. Maybe there is nothing more for us to discuss on this topic.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      09-16-2020 03:30 PM #188
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      This is where I disagree with you. But to win the war, some Japanese company (at a bare minimum) needs to create a world-killer car. The new Acura TLX Type Sand the "new" IS won't hack it.
      This has happened many times in history, it doesnt matter. People dont care about "world killer", horsepower and handling.

      They care about badge, style, and tech (latest and greatest). Certain cars that pioneer a segment tend to own that segment, and with luxury cars it was all pioneered by the Germans. The 3er, the 5er, the E-class, the S-class, you're not going up head to head against those established nameplates. Lexus has a couple pioneering segments as well with the RX and ES and even LX and they do well with it.

      The IS looks like a really nice quality car, unless I was a clueless trust fund kid etc... I would not pick the G20 BMW over it. Between the exorbitant part and maintenance prices and the planned obsolescence in both styling and mechanicals, the BMW is a no go. These cars need to be constantly frequently refreshed because by the time everyone realizes how trash the current model is (F30, E90, E46) the new one is out. Fool me how many times now?

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      09-16-2020 04:10 PM #189
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      These cars need to be constantly frequently refreshed because by the time everyone realizes how trash the current model is (F30, E90, E46) the new one is out. Fool me how many times now?
      The 3 series has had longer generation cycles than the IS the whole time the IS has existed

      What is the purpose of being so adamant in such ill informed opinions???
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      09-16-2020 05:47 PM #190
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      The 3 series has had longer generation cycles than the IS the whole time the IS has existed

      What is the purpose of being so adamant in such ill informed opinions???
      The 3er is redesigned in each cycle with a new platform and powertrain. The IS hasn't been fully redesigned since 2006. The newest IS350 is still using the same engine from 2006.

      By the time we realized the E46 had critical flaws (interior/exterior trim, electronics, engine cooling system) it was on to the E90. By the time we realized the E90 had problems (much of the same) it was time for the F30. But the time we realized the F30 had problems (N20 lol) it's time for G20.

      When you replace your 3 series the promise of a new improved version masks your judgement over the ownership experience of the prior model. This is a brand new version surely they've gotten it right by this time you tell yourself as you sign another lease.
      Last edited by tejlab; 09-16-2020 at 05:53 PM.

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      09-16-2020 05:58 PM #191
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      The 3er is redesigned in each cycle with a new platform and powertrain. The IS hasn't been fully redesigned since 2006. The newest IS350 is still using the same engine from 2006.
      The powertrain changes have been occurred independently of the actual model changes on the 3er.

      The E90 started with the N52/51 and later got the N54 and N55. The F30 started with the N20 and N55 and eventually got the B48 and B58. All of these engines received multiple revisions throughout their use as well.
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    18. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      09-16-2020 06:18 PM #192
      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      The powertrain changes have been occurred independently of the actual model changes on the 3er.

      The E90 started with the N52/51 and later got the N54 and N55. The F30 started with the N20 and N55 and eventually got the B48 and B58. All of these engines received multiple revisions throughout their use as well.
      It's teljab. Lexus does no wrong, everyone else makes blobby crap cars.
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      09-16-2020 06:21 PM #193
      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      The powertrain changes have been occurred independently of the actual model changes on the 3er.

      The E90 started with the N52/51 and later got the N54 and N55. The F30 started with the N20 and N55 and eventually got the B48 and B58. All of these engines received multiple revisions throughout their use as well.
      How is this different from my original comment?

      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      These cars need to be constantly frequently refreshed because by the time everyone realizes how trash the current model is (F30, E90, E46) the new one is out. Fool me how many times now?
      How many engine revisions has the 3er received since E46? How many has the IS? My point still stands.

      The pressure is on BMW to constantly refresh either the powertrains, the platform, or the styling to attract repeat buyers to the nameplate despite the issues with predecessors (be they engines or entire models). Who would still be buying these cars if all the powertrains and their myriad of issues were carried over?
      Last edited by tejlab; 09-16-2020 at 06:27 PM.

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      09-16-2020 06:25 PM #194
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      How is this different from my original comment?



      How many engine revisions has the 3er received since E46? How many has the IS? My point still stands.
      Well you edited your post after the fact which is why I didn’t have the part you added in the quote.

      But it’s great that BMW is constantly improving their powertrains over the years instead of standing pat and selling really old designs that aren’t competitive in the current market place. You see that with their interior upgrades as well and cars getting iDrive upgrades as they become available instead of waiting for model refreshes.
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      09-16-2020 06:27 PM #195
      Quote Originally Posted by ND40oz View Post
      Well you edited your post after the fact which is why I didn’t have the part you added in the quote.

      But it’s great that BMW is constantly improving their powertrains over the years instead of standing pat and selling really old designs that aren’t competitive in the current market place. You see that with their interior upgrades as well and cars getting iDrive upgrades as they become available instead of waiting for model refreshes.
      The irony is that Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 from 2006 is still overall a better engine than all of the engines BMW has put in the 3er since, with all their twin power turbos and plastic cooling parts and battery draining issues and with the N20 at least the self destructive tendencies. Its not so much as improvement as it is abandoning one problematic design for a newer one.

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      09-16-2020 06:38 PM #196
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      The irony is that Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 from 2006 is still overall a better engine than all of the engines BMW has put in the 3er since, with all their twin power turbos and plastic cooling parts and battery draining issues and with the N20 at least the self destructive tendencies.
      Yeah, and their transmission options are better too! That B58/ZF8HP combo is terrible compared to the 2GR/AA81E!
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      09-16-2020 06:57 PM #197
      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      Why not? It's a different market than it was 20-30 years ago. None of the Japanese behemoths seem to be adding much in the way of electric-car killers. There's no Tesla P100D/Porsche Taycan competitor in the works, that I am aware of.

      Why do you take issue with the fact that I would really, really like the Japanese manufacturers to make something that isn't boring? Other than the Subaru WRX STI (which is dated as holy hell, but still awesome) and the Civic Type-R, and maybe the Acura NSX, what the hell else is out there? Are you seriously not tired of tarted up, reliable, Japanese sedans?
      The 86.
      The GT-R.
      The ND.
      The 370Z.
      The upcoming 400Z.
      The LC.
      Even the Corolla (XS and GR).
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      The 3er is redesigned in each cycle with a new platform and powertrain. The IS hasn't been fully redesigned since 2006. The newest IS350 is still using the same engine from 2006.

      By the time we realized the E46 had critical flaws (interior/exterior trim, electronics, engine cooling system) it was on to the E90. By the time we realized the E90 had problems (much of the same) it was time for the F30. But the time we realized the F30 had problems (N20 lol) it's time for G20.

      When you replace your 3 series the promise of a new improved version masks your judgement over the ownership experience of the prior model. This is a brand new version surely they've gotten it right by this time you tell yourself as you sign another lease.
      I'm not sure if you're advocating for or against the 3-series in this case. Would you rather the always-flawed-yet-always-changing BMW or the build it well once and improve over time IS with an otherwise solid engine? There are tons of engines that are carryover from yesteryear that still have merit. Hell, the Coyote V8 is almost a decade old and they will not stop using that any time soon.
      Last edited by Elite_Deforce; 09-16-2020 at 07:05 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

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      09-16-2020 07:28 PM #198
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      The irony is that Toyota/Lexus 3.5L V6 from 2006 is still overall a better engine than all of the engines BMW has put in the 3er since, with all their twin power turbos and plastic cooling parts and battery draining issues and with the N20 at least the self destructive tendencies. Its not so much as improvement as it is abandoning one problematic design for a newer one.
      Wow you're delusional. Toyota has starved Lexus of both product and innovation, and I find it entirely believable That Lexus hasn't turned a profit in a few years. Sales are off 10% from 5 years ago.

      Name the last exciting product that had actual customers flocking to showrooms? Name the last innovation Lexus brought to market that had consumers excited? No plug in hybrids, no EV's, no real exciting high performance cars.

      You would probably have to go back to the LFA to find something they brought out that people were anticipating.

      Their engine tech is woefully behind the competition in fuel economy, and performance. They were last by a mile to integrate carplay and android auto. Still don't have a real 7 seat suv for families.

      Face it they are standing still, and not profitably either.

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      09-16-2020 07:37 PM #199
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      The 86. great car. not particularly exciting or innovative.
      The GT-R. I mean, it's an awesome car, but it's going on 12 years old with minimal updates
      The ND. [b] Great car. But is it really exciting?
      The 370Z. Seriously?
      The upcoming 400Z. Might be promising . . .
      The LC. beautiful car, no doubt, but in what category is it really innovative (other than looks)? Even Doug Demuro, who loved the car, struggled to discern where it fit in market-wise and performance-wise .
      .
      See comments in bold.
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      I used to pack his chute all the time

    26. Member
      Join Date
      Sep 20th, 2017
      Posts
      1,066
      Cars
      Boring silver appliance w/rear disc brakes & TuRD Japan shift knob
      09-16-2020 07:40 PM #200
      Quote Originally Posted by vwwtchr View Post
      Wow you're delusional. Toyota has starved Lexus of both product and innovation, and I find it entirely believable That Lexus hasn't turned a profit in a few years. Sales are off 10% from 5 years ago.

      Name the last exciting product that had actual customers flocking to showrooms? Name the last innovation Lexus brought to market that had consumers excited? No plug in hybrids, no EV's, no real exciting high performance cars.

      You would probably have to go back to the LFA to find something they brought out that people were anticipating.

      Their engine tech is woefully behind the competition in fuel economy, and performance. They were last by a mile to integrate carplay and android auto. Still don't have a real 7 seat suv for families.

      Face it they are standing still, and not profitably either.
      The earthquake really mess the product side up for Lexus.

      The LC is moderately exciting but buyers aren't that excited enough to be flocking there; dealers are still clamoring for a real 3rd row SUV.

      Lexus USA is not so profitable, but Lexus China is the new darling in Nagoya. It was the region with the most growth, since demand is great for their car which we yawn about here, because it's new to them.

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