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    1. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 12:56 PM #26
      I had a DSG MkV, and love it. However, to get the fun out of the DSG, it seemed like you had to drive it fast, especially to get the fast up-shifts. With something like the DCT in the M3, where you can toggle the transmission shift from "light to heavy," you can enjoy more of the dual clutch goodness without going at very fast speeds.

      But, the tradeoff was always making fast starts at stop lights, and the general comfort of an auto. And, I had (still have them) two manual cars at the same time, so I could always scratch the manual itch, one of them being the S2000. I say that because after driving that manual, driving most other manuals isn't as fun.

      If I had to do it over again, as long as you have access to manual in another car on a regular basis, I'd go with the DSG. If not, then get the 6MT as you're always going to crave driving a manual.

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    3. Member dr_spock's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 01:26 PM #27
      There is no regular DSG service with the manual. I think the cost of one DSG service could cover the cost of a couple basic manual lessons at the local driving school.

      Test drive both and then decide.

    4. 03-30-2020 01:26 PM #28
      Since you have the mk2 (if you still have it, and I assume it's manual?), then DSG.

      My daily is Auto, but I have a fun MT car as well.

    5. 03-30-2020 01:40 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by burgsprinta View Post
      That's the same experience I had with the DSG GLI. It shifted fast. It was nice. But it wasn't for me. Glad we still have the option. I'm probably looking at getting a manual R in the next year or so. I do miss having AWD in the winter. Lucky for me, my wife agrees with me on the manual/stick shift thing, so I don't have that fight. I'm surprised that's the argument so many have. Plenty of women can drive stick. I learned from my mother! Also, after 12 years of driving stick exclusively, traffic is second nature, so is a moot point. Everyone (me included) is trying to justify one or the other, but the DSG and the manual are both great transmissions. Pick the one you like. Both can hold the power, whether with a DSG tune or a clutch. I'm just really glad we have the option still. The GLI lost it's manual for a few years, so I'm glad they bought it back on mk7. I'm also glad MKVIII GTI and R keep the manual option.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
      I was originally looking at DSG as my fiancé does not know how to drive manual, but she is awesome and decided that she will just take a chance to learn. Now I just got to find a good car to borrow for her to learn on. Not sure R is a good choice for first time lesson.

    6. Member smoothsix's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 01:54 PM #30
      Loved my manual Mk7 R. DSG is no substitute. Slapped the s3 short shifter in there, made it better.

      If you want to add power, you'll need a stronger clutch.
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      03-30-2020 02:07 PM #31
      I had a 6MT in my Mk7 GTI, and while it wasn’t the best MT ever it’s pretty decent and I don’t understand the criticism nor all the ‘car was made for DSG’ banter. It was really easy to daily with a light clutch that’s easy to read and a reasonably precise shifter. Front/back throws are a little long but that’s easy to fix with the OEM S3 shifter, and the 1-2 shift is a big jump but you get used to it. I had a lot of fun with the car, was extremely happy with my choice, genuinely miss it, and if I got another Mk7 would choose 6MT again. As others have said, Only MT = MT and there’s no replacement for it.

      That said, the DSG is really good too in other ways. A lot of people think the world will end if they switch to an automatic, and then when they do, realize that modern ones are actually incredibly nice. I had a DSG Mk5 that I loved and currently have a PDK in my 982. The world didn’t end for either of those cars, and I estimate that I spend as much time being impressed with the technology/speed as I do lamenting the loss of the two pedals. Not just 0-60 runs either; for example at the end of the straight on LRP a lot of MTs don’t go to 5th because they have to go right back down to fourth—not an issue in a MT. Or rolling up to a red light which turns green—not that I can’t do it smoothly in a MT, but PDK does it effortlessly and perfectly every time. And for most other people in my life it’s a win as I think a grand total of three of my close family/friends were even able drive the stick cars.

      Also do you want to tune? That’s a strong argument for DSG; 6MT really ought to have a clutch upgrade to tune.

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      03-30-2020 02:17 PM #32
      Oh, and on the PDK in my 982–in a vacuum I would’ve gotten the 6MT. But after 8 months of ownership I estimate the extra speed and tech I get out of PDK makes it a wash against the fun the MT would’ve otherwise been. But for Ms. ghost and other friends and family it’s a huge win. So I don’t enjoy it any less, and the car cumulatively gets enjoyed more, and that’s great. Not sure if that’s true for your situation or not but something to think about.

    9. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 03:01 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by smoothsix View Post
      Loved my manual Mk7 R. DSG is no substitute. Slapped the s3 short shifter in there, made it better.

      If you want to add power, you'll need a stronger clutch.
      Quit saying this, because it's not [entirely] true.

      Based on my experience, ANY MANUAL will require a new clutch. Modded or not, hard driven or not, the clutch WILL slip and you WILL have to replace the clutch. Buyer beware on any 6 speed GTI/GLI and ESPECIALLY the Golf R.

      Approach any stock-clutch Golf R with the expectation that the clutch needs to be replaced.
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    10. Member n0rdicalex.'s Avatar
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      03-30-2020 03:15 PM #34
      did the same with a B8.5 S4. test drove DSG and MT6 models, ended up buying DSG. I've also driven my mom's 2016 GLI DSG on two 2500 mile trips and really wanted to try DSG for long-term.

      before my S4, I'd been daily driving manual transmission cars for 16 years, so daily driving the S4 with DSG is a change of pace. I really enjoy the DSG, but I still have my mk4 R32 if I want to row some gears.
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    11. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 03:56 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Quit saying this, because it's not [entirely] true.

      Based on my experience, ANY MANUAL will require a new clutch. Modded or not, hard driven or not, the clutch WILL slip and you WILL have to replace the clutch. Buyer beware on any 6 speed GTI/GLI and ESPECIALLY the Golf R.

      Approach any stock-clutch Golf R with the expectation that the clutch needs to be replaced.

      Quit saying this, because even the DSG has (at least one) a ... clutch.

    12. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 04:26 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      Quit saying this, because even the DSG has (at least one) a ... clutch.
      Which was not the point of my post, if you re-read what I said.
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    13. Senior Member PowerDubs's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 05:13 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post

      Based on my experience, ANY MANUAL will require a new clutch. Modded or not, hard driven or not, the clutch WILL slip and you WILL have to replace the clutch.



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    14. Member Aguilar's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 05:51 PM #38
      Have you ever heard some DSG farts? I couldn't stop giggling when I modified my first DSG GTI.

      You already know you're going to mod the car, in that case the DSG will hold the power, the manual will not. If you're planning to upgrade the clutch, then the choice is yours, but having a car that both you and your wife can enjoy might be worth the consideration, I know it is to me. I buy GTIs because they're amazing value for the money, and a dual clutch transmission this good in the low $20k is unbeatable.

      Some of the recent DSG VW I've owned:

      2006 GTI, 2008 GTI, 2009 GLI, 2012 GTI, 2015 GTI, 2017 GTI (current). All base cars.

      I also owned a manual transmission 2009 Rabbit that I autocrossed extensively, but that one was a 5MT.

      Being the VW fan that I am, I've driven a few of my friend's manual GTIs, even taken a manual Golf R at a road course. They okay fun, I love manual transmissions, but again the DSG is the one to get with the GTI in my opinion.

      The early DSGs were short geared, at 70 mph you were already spinning close to 3000 rpm. Later VW started giving them taller gear. Our 2017 GTI does 100 mph at 3000 rpm, which I really enjoy; however, with the stock programming, a stock car feels really lazy when it tries to put you on the highest possible gear. A COBB ECU and TCU flash later, the car feels really enjoyable.

      So this is why a base 2019/2020 DSG GTI is an amazing deal, even compared to earlier GTIs:
      - the 7 speed DSG has higher torque limits than the 6 speed with better spacing between gears
      - now comes with the Golf R brakes
      - mechanical LSD included
      - great deals on 2019 (no major changes for 2020)
      - 0% interest rate for 72/mo (if applicable)

      Our next VW will be a 2019/2020 GTI, once again, DSG. Plans for the car from the get-go: IS38 turbo with supporting downpipe/intake/intercooler. Stratified tune to enable left foot braking, enable crackle and pops from the exhaust, change the T/C to timing-based, etc. Once I find the right deal I'll be all over it. Now that the base cars include a LSD, adding power will actually be worth it.

      VW has had a long time to give the GTI a stronger clutch, but it hasn't happened. You have daily driven 300whp Fiesta STs (had one of those too) running stock clutches all day long, to include one running high 10s on stock motor and clutch. With the 7 speed VW did give you an even stronger DSG that will hold pretty much whatever you throw at it. Now that DSG tunes are so good and you have different flavors, it's an easy decision to make.

    15. Member n0rdicalex.'s Avatar
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      03-30-2020 06:53 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by Aguilar View Post
      Have you ever heard some DSG farts? I couldn't stop giggling when I modified my first DSG GTI.
      spark cut on my old mk5 R32 was hilarious and DSG farts on my S4 with AWE exhaust is intoxicating.
      welcome to the layer cake

    16. Member Giovanni's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 07:31 PM #40
      I never thought I would say this but I like the DSG too. It is more practical and easier to drive in heavy traffic. I get stuck in some traffic and can't deal with the clutch anymore. My left hip is shot. The DSG is really good by the way. The MK7 manual trans felt blah to me anyway. I would get a DSG over stick now no question.

    17. Member
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      03-30-2020 08:20 PM #41
      Upgrading a clutch is not the saga many are making it out to be. It's not terribly expensive. Especially considering a.) The car itself is a bit less expensive. B.) DSG tunes cost money too. C.) DSG service intervals. I'm not saying the DSG is a bad choice. It's an excellent transmission. But upgrading a clutch just isn't that big of a deal, and there are so many aftermarket ones available, to meet so many different needs and driving styles and price points. I've done it on other modded cars, and when the time comes, will do it here too. Should vw put a better clutch in from the factory? From an enthusiast standpoint, probably. But on that subject, why don't they also sell the DSGs without the need for a DSG tune? Of course from the factory it's only going to need to hold factory power. But the one they chose is cheaper, so that's an accounting choice, and a valid one. Most people won't mod, so I get it, even if I don't like it. Sure the Focus ST came with a better stock clutch. But it's also discontinued. There was no financial case for it anymore, so now it's gone in the US. The GTI and R have some of the highest manual take rates around, next to the WRX (including the manual only STI). That says that there are plenty of people getting enjoyment from a row-your-own VWs. So much that it's back for another generation of GTis and Rs for 2020 and on the GLI for 2019+.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk

    18. 03-30-2020 08:29 PM #42
      I have a manual Sportwagen, my brother has a DSG R. He was telling me a few days ago that sometimes he does wish he had bought a manual R instead, and that the DSG is good, but not amazing as most reviewers said.

      FWIW the manual does kind of suck straight out of the factory, but it costs a couple hundred $ and a few hours to make it feel great. DieselGeek Sigma 6, Superpin, clutch delay valve delete (free) and clutch spring return delete (also free) help immensely. The cost to replace a clutch is also a moot point since you'll pay extra for the DSG + TCU tune + DSG services over the long haul.

      I would get the manual. In the future you won't have a choice anyways, so might as well enjoy it while you can.

    19. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 09:09 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by burgsprinta View Post
      Upgrading a clutch is not the saga many are making it out to be. It's not terribly expensive. Especially considering a.) The car itself is a bit less expensive. B.) DSG tunes cost money too. C.) DSG service intervals. I'm not saying the DSG is a bad choice. It's an excellent transmission. But upgrading a clutch just isn't that big of a deal, and there are so many aftermarket ones available, to meet so many different needs and driving styles and price points. I've done it on other modded cars, and when the time comes, will do it here too. Should vw put a better clutch in from the factory? From an enthusiast standpoint, probably. But on that subject, why don't they also sell the DSGs without the need for a DSG tune? Of course from the factory it's only going to need to hold factory power. But the one they chose is cheaper, so that's an accounting choice, and a valid one. Most people won't mod, so I get it, even if I don't like it. Sure the Focus ST came with a better stock clutch. But it's also discontinued. There was no financial case for it anymore, so now it's gone in the US. The GTI and R have some of the highest manual take rates around, next to the WRX (including the manual only STI). That says that there are plenty of people getting enjoyment from a row-your-own VWs. So much that it's back for another generation of GTis and Rs for 2020 and on the GLI for 2019+.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
      This is the second time in this thread I've seen someone mention a clutch replacement is easy and not that expensive.

      While the job is not that hard it goes beyond the scope of most DIYers, especially if the car is a daily. Additionally, most aftermarket kits are single mass flywheels,. They work, but they chatter and make a bunch of noise at idle a lot of people don't want.

      So, if someone wants an OEM level NVH repair, with more strength, and is paying someone else to do it, it's a $2500-3000 job.

    20. Member
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      03-30-2020 09:31 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      This is the second time in this thread I've seen someone mention a clutch replacement is easy and not that expensive.

      While the job is not that hard it goes beyond the scope of most DIYers, especially if the car is a daily. Additionally, most aftermarket kits are single mass flywheels,. They work, but they chatter and make a bunch of noise at idle a lot of people don't want.

      So, if someone wants an OEM level NVH repair, with more strength, and is paying someone else to do it, it's a $2500-3000 job.
      I have to say I do agree with you. The dual mass is very refined, and the single mass options are noisy. That's why I said that it can cost as much as you want it to, and that there are many aftermarket options. It's actually why I'm thinking about doing my clutch now, before it starts slipping, so I can keep my Dual Mass flywheel, and go with something like this: https://www.ecstuning.com/b-spec-clu...t/sv502-2~spc/
      Or this
      https://www.ecstuning.com/b-sachs-pe...eel/4999502kt/

      It's reasonably priced, and works with the DMF. Otherwise, it's single mass at the same price point, or much more to replace the dual mass flywheel. I will not do the install myself, but it looks like labor will be about $1000. It's either that one or the ECS stage 2, which I know is noisy, but I can deal with it. I had a ceramic clutch on my first STI... I figure either way, I'll be out the door at around $2k, which isn't awful. I guess expensive is relative though. So even $2500 isn't that bad to me, including labor, considering the car is cheaper to start with, and you still have to get a DSG tune to mod that transmission, so in the end, it's only about $1000 more, to keep my 3 pedals.


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      Last edited by burgsprinta; 03-30-2020 at 10:01 PM.

    21. Member
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      03-30-2020 09:41 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Raguvian View Post
      FWIW the manual does kind of suck straight out of the factory, but it costs a couple hundred $ and a few hours to make it feel great. DieselGeek Sigma 6, Superpin, clutch delay valve delete (free) and clutch spring return delete (also free) help immensely.
      This is the first I'd heard of the clutch return spring delete. I just did this now. Hopefully I like it. If not, I guess I can put it back. I already did the delay valve delete last week; that was a huge improvement.
      Edit: Drove to work today with the clutch spring delete (30 mile commute). It's nice. Especially taking off at lights and when I got out of town to the backroads. "Out of the box", the manual driving experience is catered towards casual drivers, which makes sense, given there broad appeal. But with 2 free mods (clutch delay valve removal and spring delete) and one fairly inexpensive one (adjustable pedal stop), it becomes a very good experience for the enthusiast.

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      Last edited by burgsprinta; 03-31-2020 at 08:50 AM.

    22. Member
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      04-02-2020 10:23 AM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by Jimmy Russells View Post
      This is the second time in this thread I've seen someone mention a clutch replacement is easy and not that expensive.

      While the job is not that hard it goes beyond the scope of most DIYers, especially if the car is a daily. Additionally, most aftermarket kits are single mass flywheels,. They work, but they chatter and make a bunch of noise at idle a lot of people don't want.

      So, if someone wants an OEM level NVH repair, with more strength, and is paying someone else to do it, it's a $2500-3000 job.
      I just set up an appointment at my local shop on a clutch install. Labor will be $650. That's not bad at all. Add that to whatever clutch you choose, but they start at around $700… and can go up to much higher prices, of course. So the final installed price, labor included, starts at $1350, for a single mass flywheel option, including flywheel. To keep dual mass, you start at about 1450, including labor, if your stock flywheel is still good, and can be re-used. Otherwise, add in the cost of a new dmf if you want to keep it. Even the most expensive option (other than a $3200 carbon twin disc set up), is only $1782 for the clutch kit, so would be $2432 installed. A new clutch, fully installed, will run between $1350 and $2432, depending on which clutch you run. Because there's no DSG tune needed, the manual car itself is cheaper, and no DSG service requirement on the manual, I still feel like it costs about the same as a DSG, so people should just choose the transmission they prefer. I personally love rowing my own gears in all situations (I'm a glutton for punishment I guess, so including in traffic), and using three pedals. When this is no longer an option, I'll get an electric car.
      I'm going to get mine done now. I'm probably on borrowed time anyway, and would rather the clutch not go out at an inopportune time, even though mine is still fine. I just set up an appointment. Luckily, car maintenance shops are still open during coronavirus.

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      Last edited by burgsprinta; 04-02-2020 at 10:28 AM.

    23. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      04-02-2020 11:11 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by burgsprinta View Post
      I just set up an appointment at my local shop on a clutch install. Labor will be $650. That's not bad at all. Add that to whatever clutch you choose, but they start at around $700… and can go up to much higher prices, of course. So the final installed price, labor included, starts at $1350, for a single mass flywheel option, including flywheel. To keep dual mass, you start at about 1450, including labor, if your stock flywheel is still good, and can be re-used. Otherwise, add in the cost of a new dmf if you want to keep it. Even the most expensive option (other than a $3200 carbon twin disc set up), is only $1782 for the clutch kit, so would be $2432 installed. A new clutch, fully installed, will run between $1350 and $2432, depending on which clutch you run. Because there's no DSG tune needed, the manual car itself is cheaper, and no DSG service requirement on the manual, I still feel like it costs about the same as a DSG, so people should just choose the transmission they prefer. I personally love rowing my own gears in all situations (I'm a glutton for punishment I guess, so including in traffic), and using three pedals. When this is no longer an option, I'll get an electric car.
      I'm going to get mine done now. I'm probably on borrowed time anyway, and would rather the clutch not go out at an inopportune time, even though mine is still fine. I just set up an appointment. Luckily, car maintenance shops are still open during coronavirus.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
      I'm not sure the labor rates in your area, but $650 is pretty cheap. Around here it would be more like $1000 at an independent. Then add in all the peripherals like shop supplies, new subframe bolts, etc etc.

      Reusing the flywheel is a risky measure at best. You cannot properly resurface a dual mass flywheel, some people try to scuff them up with a pad on a grinder, but this is backyard type stuff and could mean you're taking it all apart again in a few months.

      As I said, there are cheaper ways to do it if you don't mind some NVH. If you want a factory type repair with more holding power, it's not a cheap proposition. This is not a dig at 6 speeds (I owned one for almost eight years), it just is what it is.

    24. 04-02-2020 11:30 AM #48
      I've no experience with the 6MT in later Golfs/GTIs, but I have a 2017 1.8TSI Golf 5MT and it's the most un-fun stick I've ever owned. Wide ratios and tall gearing at least keep revs low on the highway for fuel economy and low noise, but getting there is just boring. The clutch is light but really lacks the feel it needs for a sense of driver engagement. In hindsight, I should have spent more money and just gotten an automatic top-trim Golf SEL. At least I'd have the nicer seats and more things to play with while sitting in rush hour traffic.

    25. Senior Member JustinCSVT's Avatar
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      04-02-2020 11:35 AM #49
      I had a '15 GTI 6MT that I loved but if I had to do it again, I'd go DSG.
      2017 VW GTI

    26. 04-02-2020 01:20 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by burgsprinta View Post
      This is the first I'd heard of the clutch return spring delete. I just did this now. Hopefully I like it. If not, I guess I can put it back. I already did the delay valve delete last week; that was a huge improvement.
      Edit: Drove to work today with the clutch spring delete (30 mile commute). It's nice. Especially taking off at lights and when I got out of town to the backroads. "Out of the box", the manual driving experience is catered towards casual drivers, which makes sense, given there broad appeal. But with 2 free mods (clutch delay valve removal and spring delete) and one fairly inexpensive one (adjustable pedal stop), it becomes a very good experience for the enthusiast.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
      I forgot I did the clutch pedal stop mod as well, cost about $3 for 4 stops using furniture slider feet.

      Considering I've seen quotes of $500+ for DSG service (every 40k, or even earlier if you are modified), I don't see why people are complaining so much about the cost of a clutch change. The DSG costs $1k more, TCU tune costs at least $700, and DSG service every 20-40k will end up costing considerably more in the long run, and that's assuming your DSG clutches don't wear out (which isn't unheard of) or have some other gearbox related issue. Spend $2500, throw a good clutch into the manual and you're set. Transmission service is as easy as an oil change.

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