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    1. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 09:36 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      Wrong.

      Zero related to CVT.

      4-cyl. toys are terrible engines for 4000lbs+ vehicles.

      This is why Kia, Honda & Toyota keep pushing V6 in expensive SUV,
      Sounds like you haven't actually driven one. Keep in mind that the Ascent 2.4 is a really big 4 banger. There are v6s of similar displacement. The DI + Turbo means it has a wide torque band. Our Ascent is a LOT quicker than the v6 Equinox it replaced. The motor parts bin has a lot to do with why different manufacturers use different motors. Toyota, Honda, etc. have a long history of v6s. Subaru mostly makes 4 bangers, and turbo 4s for higher output applications- it does not make v6 motors, and the H6 would have needed way too much work to replicate the performance in the FA24.

      No, it's not fast by any stretch, but it's just fine for the intended duty. One might argue that a v6 is going to be more reliable over the very long term, which is a consideration for those intending to keep the car for 10+ years. But I think you'll have CVT problems before you have motor issues.

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    3. Member Yo Teach's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 10:37 AM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I am shocked the Ascent is ranked 2th. There are probably a lot of Subie-fans at C&D. I was rather deceived by it, specially with that appalling engine. Honestly it is like if the Mazda and Subaru have been swapped by mistake. I am ok with the Honda and the Telluride where they are.
      This is from Motor Trend.

      Quote Originally Posted by chocofrappe55 View Post
      If these are "midsize" what is "fullsize"?

      Scary...
      Especially since an actual midsize class already exists and several of these brands offer something in it - Sorento, Edge, Passport, etc.

      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Oh but I'm sure Mazda got thousands of real victories on the back of the fairy tales the auto rags sold (and the internet kept repeating).

      It's a big paradox. If you can only have 1 car in your household, and you want something fun to drive, but need to legitimately seat 7 regularly, you can't get a CX-9 anyway. If you need to seat seven, but have more than one car, you can get a legit 7 seater and a legit fun car (albeit for more money). Who exactly is this for?

      I'm still a bit bummed there's no CX-7. 10" lopped off of a CX-9 with no pointless 3rd row = a nice compromise for a smaller family that needs more room.
      And there's no reason why the third row in the CX-9 should be so small. It has three-row size on the outside, but two-row space on the inside. Its overall length and wheelbase are longer than a Pilot. Mazda needs to work on its packaging efficiency.
      You think you hate it now, but wait 'til you drive it.

    4. Member swedesc's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 10:59 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      I am solidly in the XC90 camp too. Those were some of the most comfortable seats I have ever sat in.

      The problem is finding a deal on one, and finding the actual model we want.
      We got ours in September of 2018 and it was 2019 MY and still received a stellar deal. If you’re leasing though, Volvo doesn’t do the best leases.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

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      03-26-2020 11:41 AM #79
      The XC90 seats are divine and I love the looks of the car. Just had seat time no drive time but I am sure its a good ride. Unfortunately it is out of my budget so if I do decide to upsize the Ascent is pretty much #1 on the list.

      It's interesting for me that one of the reasons I enjoy sticking with Subaru is the dealer experience. My local dealer is great so it does really make a difference when it comes to sticking with a brand, for me it does anyway.

    6. Member
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      03-26-2020 11:49 AM #80
      I'm waiting on what the new Sienna is going to offer before diving into the world of AWD three-row vehicles. I want to like the new AWD Pacifica, but FCA quality issues concern me.

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      03-26-2020 11:49 AM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      And there's no reason why the third row in the CX-9 should be so small. It has three-row size on the outside, but two-row space on the inside. Its overall length and wheelbase are longer than a Pilot. Mazda needs to work on its packaging efficiency.
      That's the consequence for TCL's class leading styling.
      Quote Originally Posted by Jezza
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    8. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 11:54 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      The change to a rear drive platform must have necessitated some odd cost cutting (in hindsight looks quite penny smart, dollar dumb).
      Hopefully that will equate to a more durable longer lasting SUV.
      Are they shipping police units yet?
      They wanted the RWD platform to make Lincoln standout, so I suspect you're right. My assumption would be that in an effort to keep the Explorer margin similar or better than the previous gen, they cut costs where possible despite a higher priced platform.

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      03-26-2020 12:31 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      They wanted the RWD platform to make Lincoln standout, so I suspect you're right. My assumption would be that in an effort to keep the Explorer margin similar or better than the previous gen, they cut costs where possible despite a higher priced platform.
      I think they did it to make the Ford stand out. It can tow a lot more and is more rugged than its hinged door minivan competitors. It's like a mini Expedition. The problem was in the execution, not the concept. I think it was smart to distance it from the legions of FWD based 3 row crossovers.

    10. Member adrew's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 12:41 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by Yo Teach View Post
      This is from Motor Trend.
      Yeah, I have never put much stock in MT ratings.

      Think about all the cool stuff that was out in 1991 and they gave COTY to the Caprice Classic. Cirrus, Malibu, PT Cruiser, 300M, Thunderbird, Fusion, Passat

      Other COTYs, most of it is super questionable from about 2008-back, IMO
      2020 Chevrolet Corvette
      2019 Genesis G70
      2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia / Giulia Quadrifoglio
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV
      2016 Chevrolet Camaro
      2015 Volkswagen Golf
      2014 Cadillac CTS
      2013 Tesla Model S
      2012 Volkswagen Passat
      2011 Chevrolet Volt
      2010 Ford Fusion
      2009 Nissan GT-R
      2008 Cadillac CTS
      2007 Toyota Camry
      2006 Honda Civic
      2005 Chrysler 300
      2004 Toyota Prius
      2003 Infiniti G35
      2002 Ford Thunderbird
      2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
      2000 Lincoln LS
      1999 Chrysler 300M
      1998 Chevrolet Corvette
      1997 Chevrolet Malibu
      1996 Dodge Caravan
      1995 Chrysler Cirrus
      1994 Ford Mustang
      1993 Ford Probe GT
      1992 Cadillac Seville Touring Sedan
      1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LTZ
      1990 Lincoln Town Car
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    11. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 01:03 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Yeah, I have never put much stock in MT ratings.

      Think about all the cool stuff that was out in 1991 and they gave COTY to the Caprice Classic. Cirrus, Malibu, PT Cruiser, 300M, Thunderbird, Fusion, Passat

      Other COTYs, most of it is super questionable from about 2008-back, IMO
      2020 Chevrolet Corvette
      2019 Genesis G70
      2018 Alfa Romeo Giulia / Giulia Quadrifoglio
      2017 Chevrolet Bolt EV
      2016 Chevrolet Camaro
      2015 Volkswagen Golf
      2014 Cadillac CTS
      2013 Tesla Model S
      2012 Volkswagen Passat
      2011 Chevrolet Volt
      2010 Ford Fusion
      2009 Nissan GT-R
      2008 Cadillac CTS
      2007 Toyota Camry
      2006 Honda Civic
      2005 Chrysler 300
      2004 Toyota Prius
      2003 Infiniti G35
      2002 Ford Thunderbird
      2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
      2000 Lincoln LS
      1999 Chrysler 300M
      1998 Chevrolet Corvette
      1997 Chevrolet Malibu
      1996 Dodge Caravan
      1995 Chrysler Cirrus
      1994 Ford Mustang
      1993 Ford Probe GT
      1992 Cadillac Seville Touring Sedan
      1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LTZ
      1990 Lincoln Town Car
      I think most of them are pretty defensible from 2003 onward. They had a very strong domestic bias before that which I think has a lot to do with the questionable calls. American cars (not trucks) were still mostly uncompetitive with imported rivals until the mid 00s, but I don't think they were allowed to give an import COTY in the 90s.

      2003: G35 was essentially a luxe 350Z- not a bad package and a good performer for the time. It was an interesting car from a make that was generally pretty stodgy. Still see a lot on the road.
      2004: The Prius was a game changer when it came out. First hybrid to really sell in volume.
      2005: The 300 has stood the test of time. It's been in production for 15 years. It was a huge step up for American luxury at the time.
      2006-7: Perhaps questionable, but these Civic and Camry were both solid cars that have held up well.
      2008: CTS was a a big deal in terms of driving dynamics and quality that rivaled the Germans, plus a powertrain in some trims that actually outperformed.
      2009: GT-R was a huge deal. Bonkers performance at a very reasonable price upon release.
      2010: I agree this was a bad call. The Fusion was nothing special, but I suppose it was an attempt at rebirth for Ford's midsize lineup.
      2011: Volt was a BIG deal as the first mainstream plugin hybrid. They were good cars even if they didn't sell in the huge numbers that had been hoped for.
      2012: I agree this was a bad call. They gave VW too much credit for Americanizing.
      2013: Love or hate Tesla, I'd argue the Model S was hands down the car of the decade.
      2014: CTS: Maybe didn't deserve a second run, but it remains a pretty impressive car. The CTS-V still commands higher values than the German equivalents of the same age.
      2015: The MK VII Golf was a huge improvement over the MKVI, and I would argue it remains a global benchmark for compact cars. The MQB architecture was also a big deal and was early in the trend of modular architectures.
      2016: The Camaro is still one of the best performance bargains out there. It's really outgrown it's mullet-mobile roots. Too bad you still can't see out of them.
      2017: Bolt deserves it as being first to market for an affordable long range EV.
      2018: Giulia has had reliability problems (mostly the early Quads), but they are fantastic and beautiful cars that deserved the accolades.
      2019: Maybe a missed call, but it's rare to see a competitive new entrant in the space (especially from someone other than the Japanese/Germans), so I think it deserved some credit.
      2020: I don't see how you argue with that one. Even if it's not 100% perfect, a midengined supercar for $60k is a game changer.


      So in the last 17 years, I'd say there were only two complete misses and maybe 1-2 others that were questionable.

    12. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 01:29 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I think they did it to make the Ford stand out. It can tow a lot more and is more rugged than its hinged door minivan competitors. It's like a mini Expedition. The problem was in the execution, not the concept. I think it was smart to distance it from the legions of FWD based 3 row crossovers.
      I agree with all of that. I'm simply saying that a big part of it was to give Lincoln a competitive platform, as it needs to compete with the likes of the X5, GV80, Q7, and GLE. My assumption is they overshot it on the platform, and that left little room for everything else. And it cam down to preserving margin, or spending more per unit to improve it.

      If my assumption is true, then perhaps we'll see a mid cycle refresh with more cost thrown into the interior, and some of the other gaffes fixed, again with the assumption that doing so allows them to preserve margins for the time being. But who know. Either way, they botched up what is a high profile and critical vehicle, and the rest of what's in the pipeline, including the Mach E, new F150, EV F150, etc are going to need all of their talent and money, so I also wonder how much capacity they're going to have to address the Explorer.

      Yet another example of why spending money to do something right the first time costs far less than trying to fix it later.

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      03-26-2020 04:10 PM #87
      What MT should of done, for a more comprehensive road test...

      they could of kept the Palos Verdes roads, then hit the 405 north, to I-5 north (for a brief few miles) then Rte 14 to Rte 395 to Mammoth or Tahoe, so they can test at sea level all the away to more than a mile above sea level (which purposely hurts the naturally aspirated motors) and back.


      https://goo.gl/maps/fwhhWCDzYg3xSnHXA
      Quote Originally Posted by Jezza
      Power and Speed solves many things
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    14. 03-26-2020 07:12 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      Wrong.

      Zero related to CVT.

      4-cyl. toys are terrible engines for 4000lbs+ vehicles.

      This is why Kia, Honda & Toyota keep pushing V6 in expensive SUV,
      Have you driven an Ascent? It scoots, and it keeps going to its electronically limited 130mph lol.

      My mother’s Ascent puts my V8-powered Lexus GX460 to shame.

      Of course it’s apples to oranges, my GX can tow more, but that “4 cylinder can’t handle it” mentality is so outdated.

    15. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 07:25 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by Ilikewaffles View Post
      Have you driven an Ascent?
      Yes, I heard it and it felt just utter cheap.

      No wonder we don't see them around. I even prefer the Mazda 2.5T to it.

    16. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 07:47 PM #90
      Remember, up to 1999 there was a Motortrend Import Car of the Year.
      So the normal MCotY was just for domestics.


      Quote Originally Posted by wiki

      Import Car of the Year listing
      Introduced in 1970 for one year and then brought back in 1976 due to differences between imports and American cars. This was discontinued after the 1999 model year when the line between what is a domestic vehicle and what is not became problematic.

      1999 Volkswagen New Beetle
      1998 Lexus GS
      1997 BMW 5 Series
      1996 Mercedes-Benz E-Class
      1995 Nissan Maxima
      1994 Honda Accord
      1993 Mazda RX-7
      1992 Lexus SC 400
      1991 Mitsubishi 3000GT VR-4
      1990 Nissan 300ZX Turbo
      1989 Mitsubishi Galant GS
      1988 Honda CR-X Si
      1987 Acura Legend Coupe
      1986 Mazda RX-7
      1985 Toyota MR2
      1984 Honda Civic CR-X
      1983 Mazda 626
      1982 Toyota Celica Supra
      1981 Mercedes-Benz 300SD Turbodiesel
      1980 Honda Civic
      1979 Datsun 280ZX
      1978 Toyota Celica
      1977 Mercedes-Benz 280E
      1976 Toyota Celica Liftback
      1971-1975 No Awards
      1970 Porsche 914

      Last edited by BRealistic; 03-26-2020 at 07:50 PM.
      Vehicles owned (*=automatic):
      Chevy: 82 Cavalier Type 10, 94 Cavalier Coupe* | Chrysler: 96 Town & Country* | Ford: 73 F100, 88 F150, 18 F150* | Jeep: 78 CJ-5 | Mazdas: 83 GLC, 85 RX7 GS, 86 323, 90 323, 90 B2600i, 92 Miata, 97 Protege, 01 B2300, 01 B3000, 04 RX8 | Nissan: 90 240SX SE | Plymouth: 88 Caravan* | Pontiac: 84 Grand Prix* | Toyota: 84 Celica GTS, 02 Tundra*

    17. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      03-27-2020 09:09 AM #91
      Also remember that Motor Trend limits COTY nominees to significantly revised or all new products.

      The year the Caprice came out, as I recall, there were very few all new American cars that year.
      Matt
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    18. 03-30-2020 06:42 PM #92
      I'd like to see where they'd rank the 3 row Model Y.

    19. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      03-30-2020 07:04 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      Yes, I heard it and it felt just utter cheap.

      No wonder we don't see them around. I even prefer the Mazda 2.5T to it.
      You heard it? What does that even mean? Who cares what it sounds like?

      They are a top seller for Subaru. I see a lot of them - and I don’t see that many Subarus around.
      Last edited by Nealric; 03-30-2020 at 07:21 PM.

    20. 03-31-2020 02:51 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I think most of them are pretty defensible from 2003 onward. They had a very strong domestic bias before that which I think has a lot to do with the questionable calls. American cars (not trucks) were still mostly uncompetitive with imported rivals until the mid 00s, but I don't think they were allowed to give an import COTY in the 90s.

      2019: Maybe a missed call, but it's rare to see a competitive new entrant in the space (especially from someone other than the Japanese/Germans), so I think it deserved some credit.
      Wouldn't exactly say that for a vehicle that won NAIAS NACOTY, but one can say that such an award (like MT's COTY) is limited to new models (so smaller pool).

      But the G70 also made C/D's 10Best list (which takes into account all the competition).


      More from MT on the Pilot, Highlander and Explorer.

      https://www.motortrend.com/news/hond...mparison-test/
      Last edited by CP1; 03-31-2020 at 02:55 AM.
      Why you wouldn’t (buy an Optima SX):

      Because you have your eyes on the Frigidaire Limited Edition Camry that you saw last weekend at the neighborhood Autoplex
      .
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