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    1. 03-25-2020 11:37 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboREX View Post
      IMO Lexus and Infiniti styling on the majority of their cars has been questionable at best, interiors are small (built for Asian sized humans), and they never really got the balance right between luxury, performance and value.
      Huh?

      The G/Q50 has always been the largest within the compact segment (along w/ the 1G/2G CTS), now surpassed by the CT5.

      The LS 460 was offered in short and LWB form (like the Germans) and the Q70 can be had here in LWB form (Q70L), making it the roomiest in the midsize segment.

      That's why the RX, MDX and JX/QX60 are midsize CUVs, but priced in the compact segment.

      The Japanese have always developed/engineered their RWD lux sedans and most of their other products primarily w/ the American market in mind.



      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I think for Lexus, the biggest issue is the rise of leasing in the luxury space. If you are a buyer, things like long-term reliability, MSRP/transactional price, and resale value are of critical importance. The luxury market used to be buy and hold, at least more so than now.
      The majority of Lexus vehicles are leased these days.



      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      But now that it's lease all the things, no one cares about reliability past 36k miles, and things like resale value and MSRP can be thrown out the window as much as the automakers want to subsidize lease prices and put the lease payment wherever they want it, rather than where economics dictates it should be. So in that world, there's really no downside to buying German, and that removes the biggest advantage for Lexus. .
      But yes, this has likely played a part in declining sales of Lexus RWD sedans (among other things).
      Why you wouldn’t (buy an Optima SX):

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    3. 03-25-2020 11:48 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      2. Don't see why this matters. The Camry was a best seller while riding on the same platform for a decade.
      It does reflect poorly on a lux brand when the mainstream variant gets the new platform first.

      Such as the Highlander vs. the RX.

      There was a lot of talk on Acura forums about why get an ILX (prior to F/L) when the Civic (on the new platform) was better in a no. of ways.




      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      I don't know what this means? Low prices, transverse engines? Have you heard for the 2 series grand coupe? How about the GLA or X1/2? Yes, times have indeed changed, LOL. And yet, when I look at the higher range for Lexus, I don't see anything that's cheap or longitudinal. I do see a nice amount of NA V8s though, which is in fact something I'd prefer over what the Germans are offering at the moment. And as far as BOF SUVs, that doesn't seem to have ever stopped the G wagon from selling. Clearly, there's far more to it than being a BOF vehicle. I don't know about you, but I drove the last gen LS back to back with a previous gen 7 series. The LS was a MUCH nicer place to spend time. The sportiness of the 7 series seemed silly and out of place. It was a true luxury car in the same vein as an S class. I have never driven an S class, so I can't speak to how it compares to the LS, but I can't ever see owning a 7 series.
      BMW and MB have only done FWD when it has come to the sub-entry segments.

      Meanwhile, Lexus is selling a vehicle (RX) based on a FWD midsize platform at entry-level/compact segment prices, and even a vehicle (ES) based on a FWD fullsize platform at entry-level/compact segment prices.


      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      And given that a lot of Lexus vehicles are using shared platforms with volume toyota models, I would be willing to bet that Lexus is still making a very healthy profit. It's clear that Toyota spends their time and money on the vehicles that are volume sellers, while spending less on vehicles that aren't.
      One would think that, but there have been signs of the opposite being true.
      Last edited by CP1; 03-25-2020 at 11:51 PM.
      Why you wouldn’t (buy an Optima SX):

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      03-26-2020 12:04 AM #128
      Too perfect... just like the first Matrix. They need to engineer in some "scared to own outside of warranty-ness" to give luxury car buyers what they truly want and expect: Initial joy followed by pain at the end of 3yr/36k miles.

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      03-26-2020 08:01 AM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by CP1 View Post
      It does reflect poorly on a lux brand when the mainstream variant gets the new platform first.

      Such as the Highlander vs. the RX.

      There was a lot of talk on Acura forums about why get an ILX (prior to F/L) when the Civic (on the new platform) was better in a no. of ways.
      I think you missed my point. I agree that luxury cars should get the latest tech + platforms (though I bought an outdated TLX over a new Accord anyway)

      But again, the German double standard rears its ugly head. Or at least a gross misunderstanding of what's actually going on. All the German manufacturers run long model cycles. Typically about 7-9 years. Current IS and GS are on year 7 or 8. So Lexus problems aren't that their platforms are outdated. The platforms are fine. The problems are what they were 7-8 years ago- less than great infotainment and a lack of horsepower. Since luxury = tech these days (YUCK) that gripe is legit, but the 4 banger 5 and E are slower than the similarly priced GS350 so I'm not sure what the complaint is there.

      I just think it's silly to think luxury buyers care about the same esoteric technical details as we do. "People don't buy Lexus because their autos don't shift as quickly as the ZF8 in sport mode" It all sounds completely ridiculous. People don't buy Japanese luxury brands because they aren't German luxury brands. Someone who wants a Mercedes wouldn't be caught dead in a Lexus dealership.

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      03-26-2020 08:21 AM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      BMW has been debating producing the X7 since the GLS launched in the mid 2000s. They did not feel that they would be able to command enough sales to make it viable. Now that the buying public is SUV focused, things have changed. This shouldn't be an unfamiliar story.
      So what you're saying is that a 3 row Luxury crossover hasn't really mattered until recently? And technically, Lexus does have 3 row options. I'm sure you'll complain about it being too small or some such nonsense, but the reality is that the GX appears to be on its way out according to what was posted yesterday on this site. So it's a moot point. I see MANY GXs around me---they still sell extremely well for being old and with a 3rd row that may not be spacious. Oh and there's the RX-L, which also has a 3rd row. Lexus has more 3rd row SUV options than BMW.


      This thread is about Lexus not catching up to the Germans is it not? The $60k+ range is exactly where Lexus is most absent.
      Again, it's not clear what this arbitrary $60k has to do with anything. There's literally no relationship between the items that you're saying. You can easily buy a $60k Lexus however if that's oddly important to you.



      The Germans haven't let their RWD sedans languish as Lexus as. If they did, I think sales would fall just as much. I'm just saying Lexus has some equity and if they were to properly relaunch their lines they would see a healthy sales increase. We can agree to disagree on the CLA. The CLA was criticized for the exact same attributes over in Europe as it was here and there's plenty of status seekers abroad. The A3 and 1-series hatch were a better overall drives and it that showed up in sales.
      Lexus is clearly very strategic in how they do things. They've been quite good at maintaining their volume SUV lines--which of course is key to their profits. They have done the typical German thing with bringing out a new version of their flagship sedan every what 7-10 yrs? The ES is as modern and current as Toyota can do for that car, so that's not lagging anything. So what you really mean is the IS and GS, which have been hanging out for what seems to be forever. Changes looks to be coming down for both of those vehicles in the next year or so---a new IS and no more GS.

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      03-26-2020 09:06 AM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Again, it's not clear what this arbitrary $60k has to do with anything. There's literally no relationship between the items that you're saying. You can easily buy a $60k Lexus however if that's oddly important to you.
      It's not really arbitrary because around $60k price point is where high margin cars start. Everyone here seems hyperfocused on counting sales in units, and it makes sense because that is what is presented most frequently to the buying public. What really matters though is making money, which Lexus has not excelled at recently, and also the most important thing when talking about luxury goods is price. Not size, not power, not comfort, not quality, not technology. It needs to cost considerably more than the regular version of the same thing. Lexus' inability to succeed in the ~$60k+ range has hampered their profitability and equates to them failing at luxury.

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      03-26-2020 09:28 AM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I think you missed my point. I agree that luxury cars should get the latest tech + platforms (though I bought an outdated TLX over a new Accord anyway)

      But again, the German double standard rears its ugly head. Or at least a gross misunderstanding of what's actually going on. All the German manufacturers run long model cycles. Typically about 7-9 years. Current IS and GS are on year 7 or 8. So Lexus problems aren't that their platforms are outdated. The platforms are fine. The problems are what they were 7-8 years ago- less than great infotainment and a lack of horsepower. Since luxury = tech these days (YUCK) that gripe is legit, but the 4 banger 5 and E are slower than the similarly priced GS350 so I'm not sure what the complaint is there.

      I just think it's silly to think luxury buyers care about the same esoteric technical details as we do. "People don't buy Lexus because their autos don't shift as quickly as the ZF8 in sport mode" It all sounds completely ridiculous. People don't buy Japanese luxury brands because they aren't German luxury brands. Someone who wants a Mercedes wouldn't be caught dead in a Lexus dealership.
      You’re right. People don’t buy German cars because shift speeds. They buy them because they won’t be confused with a Nissan or Toyota.

      I don’t think it’s a coincidence the two most dominant luxury brands (which do happen to be German) have no down-market partner. Even if certain components on them are cheap, you aren’t going to find them on a $20k eco-line car which makes it a little less obvious. I think Audi struggles a bit with this too.

      And also that the current Lexus and Infiniti models are ancient. Yeah, they’re due for an upgrade, but it’s not here yet. Until we see what they are, we can’t really price that in.
      Last edited by Taco1933; 03-26-2020 at 09:34 AM.

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      03-26-2020 10:12 AM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      It's not really arbitrary because around $60k price point is where high margin cars start. Everyone here seems hyperfocused on counting sales in units, and it makes sense because that is what is presented most frequently to the buying public. What really matters though is making money, which Lexus has not excelled at recently, and also the most important thing when talking about luxury goods is price. Not size, not power, not comfort, not quality, not technology. It needs to cost considerably more than the regular version of the same thing. Lexus' inability to succeed in the ~$60k+ range has hampered their profitability and equates to them failing at luxury.
      Again, a pretty arbitrary number if you're not going to back it up with anything. Pickups are passenger vehicles that are well known to have high margins---and you don't need to spend anywhere neat $60k for that to happen. So you're going to need to provide some actual data on your POV, because nothing you've presented shows that this magical number is anything other than something you made up.

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      03-26-2020 10:25 AM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      Oh, yeah, us?

      I like switching stuff up. If a Corolla fell in my lap for super cheap, or free, I'd probably park it next to the house. Never know when you might need a third car. But as far as just daily driving a random turd every day for 25 years? No thanks.
      A physician I work with at McMaster still drives a Toyota Echo. His weekend toy is a 2005 Gold Wing. Some people are enthusiasts and keep things a long time. As for what usually defines the Japanese: meticulous attention to detail. If Lexus made a hot hatch or wagon, it would be our Golf R replacement. I will freely admit though that I am Japanophile through and through. Seiko and Grand Seiko over the Swiss. Zojirushi and Hario over anything German except maybe Miele. Sony Master Series or Panasonic Cinema TVs all day, every day. Nakamichi, Denon and Onkyo over Bower Wilkins and B&O. The Japanese know how to make excellent stuff that lasts.

      Lexus' problem is they have focused on the wrong market segments. They stopped listening to what people wanted and lacked direction. The company is in the midst of a revival, but make no mistake, they will be back.
      Last edited by unhappymeal; 03-26-2020 at 10:40 AM.

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      03-26-2020 10:55 AM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      It's not really arbitrary because around $60k price point is where high margin cars start. Everyone here seems hyperfocused on counting sales in units, and it makes sense because that is what is presented most frequently to the buying public. What really matters though is making money, which Lexus has not excelled at recently, and also the most important thing when talking about luxury goods is price. Not size, not power, not comfort, not quality, not technology. It needs to cost considerably more than the regular version of the same thing. Lexus' inability to succeed in the ~$60k+ range has hampered their profitability and equates to them failing at luxury.
      People aren't willing to pay more than $60K for anything that

      - doesn't have a German or exotic badge
      - can't carry a family of 7 + luggage + tow a boat at the same time
      - isn't ordained by our lor't and savior Elon Musk

      at least in significant enough volume to make a huge difference.

      A huge part of luxury and branding in general is the story of the brand. All the top luxury brands got a huge head start on companies like Lexus and Genesis. Short of building a time machine there is nothing the non Germans can do to match the German's cachet at this point. Yea the non German cars might not be as good in many aspects, but there were periods where they were (or in some cases even better) and the market still didn't bite. To Joe Sixpack a CLA with a glow in the dark emblem has more clout than a Genesis whatchamacallit?

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      03-26-2020 11:02 AM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Again, a pretty arbitrary number if you're not going to back it up with anything. Pickups are passenger vehicles that are well known to have high margins---and you don't need to spend anywhere neat $60k for that to happen. So you're going to need to provide some actual data on your POV, because nothing you've presented shows that this magical number is anything other than something you made up.
      I don't have any peer reviewed studies or w/e but $60K is kind of where non-German brands struggle to push customers beyond, at least in the sedan world. MB, BMW and even Audi have no problem selling $70, 80, 90K sedans in decent numbers. Every non-German brand I can think of struggles to break that threshold. Even Lexus, the best of the rest, is barely moving units above that price point.

      Where I think Jack is wrong is in assuming that is because the German cars are objectively better. If they are it's not in a meaningful way to the market. The big driver is the brand. People are way more willing to pay $60K+ (or more realistically, pay a $600+ lease payment) for a Mer-SAAAAAAAYYYYYYYYYYY-deez than a Lexus or some newcomer brand that has to be explained. Even if Lexus made objectively and significantly better cars than the Germans people would still go to the Germans. So what's the point of improving cars when the cars aren't really the problem?

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      03-26-2020 11:25 AM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      So what's the point of improving cars when the cars aren't really the problem?
      Because if you're not careful, other brands that are putting in the effort like Genesis, Tesla, and Lincoln are going to gradually swipe your customer base away from you. Brings me back to who I really think Lexus is fighting in the marketplace today and tomorrow. Several brands that are all not from Europe.

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      03-26-2020 11:37 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Because if you're not careful, other brands that are putting in the effort like Genesis, Tesla, and Lincoln are going to gradually swipe your customer base away from you. Brings me back to who I really think Lexus is fighting in the marketplace today and tomorrow. Several brands that are all not from Europe.
      This is not relevant to the question this thread is asking.

      The question is why Lexus/Infiniti didn't catch up to the Germans. A lot of people have offered a lot of esoteric, geeky, car guy tech reasons that IMO are flat out wrong and demonstrate a lack of understanding of auto civilians.

      The reason they haven't caught up is because in today's luxury market brand trumps everything else. It's not like the old days when you established a brand by making good + innovative product. No matter how good a Lexus or Infiniti is- and there have been some that were at least as good or better than comparable German offerings- they will never have German brand cachet. So the very notion of them catching up was an illusion. It's impossible and not even worth pursuing. It's no mistake that Lexus' most successful models deviated completely from the German brand architecture.

      Yes Lexus has some work to do to stave off non-German competitors... but the point here is there are clear tiers in the luxury auto market delineated by brand and nothing else. A CLA is more "premium" to the average person than an ES, and there's nothing Lexus can do to change that.

    15. 03-26-2020 12:00 PM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      This is not relevant to the question this thread is asking.

      The question is why Lexus/Infiniti didn't catch up to the Germans. A lot of people have offered a lot of esoteric, geeky, car guy tech reasons that IMO are flat out wrong and demonstrate a lack of understanding of auto civilians.

      The reason they haven't caught up is because in today's luxury market brand trumps everything else. It's not like the old days when you established a brand by making good + innovative product. No matter how good a Lexus or Infiniti is- and there have been some that were at least as good or better than comparable German offerings- they will never have German brand cachet. So the very notion of them catching up was an illusion. It's impossible and not even worth pursuing. It's no mistake that Lexus' most successful models deviated completely from the German brand architecture.
      You demonstrate a lack of understanding- you keep mentioning speed when comparing Lexus to the German competition. Most mainstream buyers don't care about speed.

      Also, you definitely can establish a brand still with an innovative product- Tesla. They have a unique product niche and they have established a significant cachet of "socially responsible luxury," or whatever you want to call it.

      The biggest problem Lexus has is that they do not offer anything unique- whether it is heritage, racing provenance, stunning technology, etc. They make a really reliable product that is well made. Nothing that really stands out- no groundbreaking carbon fiber construction, no super efficient powertrain, no huge power figures, no radical styling that is well received, nothing really that makes the car really desirable. I would also argue that most of the German brands' flagships are pretty boring, but they have already established themselves for a longer time, which gives them a big advantage.

      Finally, Lexus does share platforms with Toyota, which IMO is a big mistake. The crossovers and the ES use Toyota platforms in a pretty obvious way. One thing that Genesis did well is that they built vehicles on a totally separate platform, which gives them greater separation from Hyundai than Lexus from Toyota. I wouldn't have all of those Kia models like the Stinger and the K900 if it were my call.

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      03-26-2020 12:05 PM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      A huge part of luxury and branding in general is the story of the brand. All the top luxury brands got a huge head start on companies like Lexus and Genesis. Short of building a time machine there is nothing the non Germans can do to match the German's cachet at this point. Yea the non German cars might not be as good in many aspects, but there were periods where they were (or in some cases even better) and the market still didn't bite. To Joe Sixpack a CLA with a glow in the dark emblem has more clout than a Genesis whatchamacallit?
      There's no doubt that Asian brands don't have the long history as the Germans. And to a certain demographic, such a storied history is crucially important. But given how well Lexus does in selling the hideous looking UX and RX SUVs, a storied history is 100% irrelevant to many many people. If I wasn't a car person, there's a 100% chance I'd own a Lexus if I wanted something nice, but not role the dice on reliability and expensive service.

      At the same time, having longevity'history requires time on the market. There's no way around that. That doesn't mean people shouldn't try to sell offerings at the upper end of the automotive spectrum.


      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't have any peer reviewed studies or w/e but $60K is kind of where non-German brands struggle to push customers beyond, at least in the sedan world. MB, BMW and even Audi have no problem selling $70, 80, 90K sedans in decent numbers. Every non-German brand I can think of struggles to break that threshold. Even Lexus, the best of the rest, is barely moving units above that price point.
      You're talking about something different than he was talking. He was speaking purely about profit, with $60k representing the start of an ultra-profitable tier for companies. You're saying that people don't buy $60k Lexi. That may be true, but it doesn't reflect how much profit Lexus makes when they sell a <$60k car. So the question is what evidence is out there that Lexus needs to substantially increase just the volume of $60k+ vehicles they sell vs putting effort into increasing sales across the board, with the goal of substantially juicing their profits?
      Last edited by 6cylVWguy; 03-26-2020 at 12:07 PM.

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      03-26-2020 12:11 PM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      So what you're saying is that a 3 row Luxury crossover hasn't really mattered until recently? And technically, Lexus does have 3 row options. I'm sure you'll complain about it being too small or some such nonsense, but the reality is that the GX appears to be on its way out according to what was posted yesterday on this site. So it's a moot point. I see MANY GXs around me---they still sell extremely well for being old and with a 3rd row that may not be spacious. Oh and there's the RX-L, which also has a 3rd row. Lexus has more 3rd row SUV options than BMW.
      From a prestige standpoint, and that's what we're talking about in thread, yes a successful luxury 3 row SUV has become more important than ever. Consumers aren't buying big sedans as much anymore (obviously) and are moving on to SUVs. I love that you think having a small third row seat is nonsense, but it clearly isn't given BMW and Mercedes have worked hard to create a suitable 3rd row for the average adult. They saw how lucrative the family hauler segment has become and are taking a piece of the pie. Lexus dealers complain about both the RX-L and the GX due to their small third row seats; this is public knowledge. The GX sells great its true, but Lexus is missing out on the most expensive segments because all they have is the comparatively lackluster LX570.

      Lexus isn't going to catch up with the Germans if the best they have to offer is at lower price points than the Germans.


      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Again, it's not clear what this arbitrary $60k has to do with anything. There's literally no relationship between the items that you're saying. You can easily buy a $60k Lexus however if that's oddly important to you.
      The posters above elaborated more on this point. This phenomenon isn't unique to Lexus or even the Germans at other price points. At some point people look at the badge and go "Why would I buy x brand, at this point I should just get y brand." Lexus hits that barrier at a much earlier point than the BMW and Mercedes, hence my why they haven't caught up.

      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Lexus is clearly very strategic in how they do things. They've been quite good at maintaining their volume SUV lines--which of course is key to their profits. They have done the typical German thing with bringing out a new version of their flagship sedan every what 7-10 yrs? The ES is as modern and current as Toyota can do for that car, so that's not lagging anything. So what you really mean is the IS and GS, which have been hanging out for what seems to be forever. Changes looks to be coming down for both of those vehicles in the next year or so---a new IS and no more GS.
      Lexus isn't any more strategic than its competitors. They botched the LS operation with keeping it out forever due internal conflicts and then replaced it with something customers don't want. Both the LS and LC are way off their projected sales targets. They're basically dead in the XL luxury SUV segment because the LX570 is easy to ignore and the next generation has been delayed a few times now. Yes there's going to be a new IS but some sources are saying that just may be a half-assed effort, or in other words a heavy refresh of the current car. I'll keep my fingers crossed its actually worth paying attention to.

      These are all points I've made earlier, so no I'm not just talking about the IS and GS. I've never said the brand is doomed, but there's clear reasons why they've never caught up to the Germans. And that might be OK with Toyota/Lexus at the end of the day.
      Quote Originally Posted by Doug Butabi View Post
      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

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      03-26-2020 12:23 PM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      This is not relevant to the question this thread is asking.

      The question is why Lexus/Infiniti didn't catch up to the Germans. A lot of people have offered a lot of esoteric, geeky, car guy tech reasons that IMO are flat out wrong and demonstrate a lack of understanding of auto civilians.

      The reason they haven't caught up is because in today's luxury market brand trumps everything else. It's not like the old days when you established a brand by making good + innovative product. No matter how good a Lexus or Infiniti is- and there have been some that were at least as good or better than comparable German offerings- they will never have German brand cachet. So the very notion of them catching up was an illusion. It's impossible and not even worth pursuing. It's no mistake that Lexus' most successful models deviated completely from the German brand architecture.

      Yes Lexus has some work to do to stave off non-German competitors... but the point here is there are clear tiers in the luxury auto market delineated by brand and nothing else. A CLA is more "premium" to the average person than an ES, and there's nothing Lexus can do to change that.
      Have you sat in a Lexus recently? The difference between a 2020 E and a 2020 GS goes so far beyond brand power. They seem like they come from different eras.

      Branding is such a cop out. Lexus isn’t making competitive cars right now.

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      03-26-2020 12:29 PM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      Again, a pretty arbitrary number if you're not going to back it up with anything. Pickups are passenger vehicles that are well known to have high margins---and you don't need to spend anywhere neat $60k for that to happen. So you're going to need to provide some actual data on your POV, because nothing you've presented shows that this magical number is anything other than something you made up.
      https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...le-car-of-2019

      What does a lightly equipped six cylinder (the best selling) GLE or X5 go for? Take a guess.


      "As for the SUVs, the GLE, together with its GLS sibling, will account for 24% of earnings at Mercedes in 2020, from just 9% of total volume"

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      03-26-2020 01:14 PM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by t44tq View Post
      You demonstrate a lack of understanding- you keep mentioning speed when comparing Lexus to the German competition. Most mainstream buyers don't care about speed.

      Also, you definitely can establish a brand still with an innovative product- Tesla. They have a unique product niche and they have established a significant cachet of "socially responsible luxury," or whatever you want to call it.

      The biggest problem Lexus has is that they do not offer anything unique- whether it is heritage, racing provenance, stunning technology, etc. They make a really reliable product that is well made. Nothing that really stands out- no groundbreaking carbon fiber construction, no super efficient powertrain, no huge power figures, no radical styling that is well received, nothing really that makes the car really desirable. I would also argue that most of the German brands' flagships are pretty boring, but they have already established themselves for a longer time, which gives them a big advantage.

      Finally, Lexus does share platforms with Toyota, which IMO is a big mistake. The crossovers and the ES use Toyota platforms in a pretty obvious way. One thing that Genesis did well is that they built vehicles on a totally separate platform, which gives them greater separation from Hyundai than Lexus from Toyota. I wouldn't have all of those Kia models like the Stinger and the K900 if it were my call.
      So not only did you not read my post.... you parroted many of the silly and flat out wrong arguments I spoke about within. No, the typical German lease special buyer doesn't give a **** about "groundbreaking carbon fiber construction". If they did, the high tech CF in the LFA would have done the trick, and the i3/i8 wouldn't have failed. No, someone leasing a 4 banger 5 series or E class obviously doesn't give a **** about "huge power figures" or even super efficient powertrains (as they'd get the PHEV versions). Nor do they care about racing provenance. And Lexus' most successful models for the last 20 years have been fancy Toyotas (ES, RX, GX, LX). Etc. I mean you even close your 2nd paragraph by backing up my point- the German flagships largely sell on previously established reputation. Again you are just projecting the things that matter to you onto the market at large, w/o proof or substance.

      Genesis might do better than Lexus in the very specific sectors they compete in, but even if they made objectively better offerings than the Germans, it wouldn't matter. I don't think German car fans would ever admit it, and if they did they would fall back to the subjective for justification on why the German offerings are still better. On another forum I'm on there's a dude who literally says Mercedes is the best brand because it has history and heritage. What tech or spec can ever overcome such thinking?
      Last edited by CTK; 03-26-2020 at 01:16 PM.

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      03-26-2020 01:17 PM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by Taco1933 View Post
      Have you sat in a Lexus recently? The difference between a 2020 E and a 2020 GS goes so far beyond brand power. They seem like they come from different eras.

      Branding is such a cop out. Lexus isn’t making competitive cars right now.
      So you really think that if Lexus made the GS a true objective equal to the E class, they could charge E class money and move E class volumes? Do you think a Lexus E class would steal sales from Mercedes?

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      03-26-2020 01:26 PM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      So you really think that if Lexus made the GS a true objective equal to the E class, they could charge E class money and move E class volumes? Do you think a Lexus E class would steal sales from Mercedes?
      Uh, yeah. Is you opinion that the deck is stacked against them so they just shouldn’t try?

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      03-26-2020 01:38 PM #147
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      From a prestige standpoint, and that's what we're talking about in thread, yes a successful luxury 3 row SUV has become more important than ever. Consumers aren't buying big sedans as much anymore (obviously) and are moving on to SUVs. I love that you think having a small third row seat is nonsense, but it clearly isn't given BMW and Mercedes have worked hard to create a suitable 3rd row for the average adult. They saw how lucrative the family hauler segment has become and are taking a piece of the pie. Lexus dealers complain about both the RX-L and the GX due to their small third row seats; this is public knowledge. The GX sells great its true, but Lexus is missing out on the most expensive segments because all they have is the comparatively lackluster LX570.
      Stop, you're not making sense now. So Lexus has 3 third row crossovers, 2 of which have been around WELL before BMW and about as long as Mercedes and Audi. If you look at the GX as the midsized option, 3rd row legroom is identical to the Audi Q7 (both of which are smaller than the X7/GLS). However, both the Audi and GX have SUBSTANTIALLY more shoulder room than the the X7 (which has much more legroom than the Audi/Lexus). So it's far more of a toss up than you're letting on. These are just the facts. By and large, the 3rd row in the GX is competitive with the German offerings. Also, what's lackluster about the LX? It's like a large G wagon. Way better built than any of the German cars we're talking about here. And this is frankly, where the storied nameplate matters. But as you well know, both the GX an LX will be getting replaced in the next couple of years. Frankly, what Lexus is doing is mighty impressive given what they have to work with.

      Also? It's real convenient that you seem to left out Porsche which has been in the SUV game for over a decade. They seem to have NO need for a 3rd row SUV. Where's you're objection there?



      The posters above elaborated more on this point. This phenomenon isn't unique to Lexus or even the Germans at other price points. At some point people look at the badge and go "Why would I buy x brand, at this point I should just get y brand." Lexus hits that barrier at a much earlier point than the BMW and Mercedes, hence my why they haven't caught up.
      That literally only comes into play in two low volume situations: aspirational vehicles (like Lexus F models vs AMG/M/RS) and the LX. Lexus is pretty much the better buy in pretty much every other situation.


      And that might be OK with Toyota/Lexus at the end of the day.
      Actions always speak louder than words and this would be the only logical conclusion. Lexus spends their money on what sells. Small/mid-size SUVs are very big sellers in the luxo SUV market. Large SUVs in any category don't sell as well as smaller/mid-sized SUVs. You're talking incremental changes in a segment that just isn't that important to the company.


      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      What does a lightly equipped six cylinder (the best selling) GLE or X5 go for? Take a guess.


      "As for the SUVs, the GLE, together with its GLS sibling, will account for 24% of earnings at Mercedes in 2020, from just 9% of total volume"
      Once again, this has absolutely nothing to do with margin. Thanks for playing, please try again.

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      03-26-2020 01:42 PM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by Taco1933 View Post
      Uh, yeah. Is you opinion that the deck is stacked against them so they just shouldn’t try?
      My opinion is nobody is going to buy a Lexus if the same money can get them an equivalent Mercedes. Again I am speaking strictly in the context of the questions asked in the OP. For a given price the average person is going to pick a Mercedes over a Lexus the majority of the time, even if the Lexus is as good or better.

    25. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      03-26-2020 01:57 PM #149
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I wonder if it's a chicken/egg situation. With the GS in particular... IMO, in 2013 a GS350 was a much better car than an F10 528i or W212 E350. OK the infotainment sucked even 7 years ago but standards were lower then too. But it didn't catch on. Why put more money in when the RX/ES are easy cash cows. But even now I think there's still some value in a simple, reliable luxury car. Tech <> luxury which is the story the Germans are leaning heavy on.
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      I thought the 2013 GS350 was a great car as well, if a bit ugly. They were behind from the start with that car in my opinion simply because they didn't have many variants and lacked aggressive lease support. They only had a niche hybrid GS450h and GS350 against the E-class, which had the coupe/convertible/wagon padding sales as well as the E350 Bluetec, E550, and E63 AMG sedan variants. Through a couple of Lexus insiders I learned they almost cancelled the GS earlier (signalling a lack of future investment) and now in present day the next-generation GS turned into the 2021 Toyota Mirai.

      I see your point on having a luxury car where the tech is secondary and not overwhelming in its presence. I think this is the route Genesis is taking to good effect with the G80 and GV80. We'll see how well they fare in comparison tests and sales charts.
      The GS had a big problem because it was substantially more expensive than the ES but not offering any substantial benefits that Lexus buyers liked or wanted. It was supposed to compete head on with the Germans but instead, it got its butt kicked by the much cheaper and basically identically sized ES.

      This is why Toyota didn't invest in a new GS or even attempt to keep it fresh. The ES was a much better investment for Toyota and more attractive car for the kind of people that buy Lexus - big, comfortable, (relatively) cheap.

      Genesis G80 is a pretty compelling car and Hyundai is also not making the mistake that Toyota did by offering a cheaper identical size alternative.

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      03-26-2020 01:58 PM #150
      And now we learn that the next IS350 will have a BMW engine, like the Supra.

      Who would have figured this just a few years ago....

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