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    1. How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      03-20-2020 10:06 PM #51
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      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      maybe its just me, but i wouldnt put anything in the circle of "unrealistic" when it comes to sex.

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      03-20-2020 10:52 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Yeah, I mentioned before with the MDX and RX that there is certainly a big place for them and it's not bad to specialize in that range. I'm talking about it being sad more as a car fan that the Japanese have incredible craftsmen and a great culture for that stuff (as shown in the growth of Grand Seiko I mentioned), but they gave up on that direction too quickly IMO. I think Toyota could have even created a brand above Lexus doing more bespoke stuff.

      I just don't know that Americans care. I agree and love for example how Lexus interiors look like old Nakamichi audio equipment. But most Americans, who are Lexus main customers, don't know that. Warmed over Camrys and Highlanders are what we deserve.

      I do think it may be time for Lexus to get on the turbo train across the lineup. And competitively. All of the IS engine options are slow.

      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

    4. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      03-21-2020 01:45 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by GLI Dan View Post

      My Infiniti is a great car that does everything well. I honestly have no complaints. But it doesn't offer the same experience an S4 or M40i or AMG 43 car does. It's not as polished, not as sharp.
      for honesty.

    5. 03-21-2020 02:35 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Again I'm not saying Infiniti is on the level of BMW M or whatever. But an M340i costs like 50% more than a similarly equipped Q50RS. So I would hope it would be better. And IMO in the F30 generation........... they def weren't that much better. At least not driving normally on the street.

      And my overall thesis is the German brand proposition is so strong the only way for anyone else to come in is either to not compete directly (i.e. Lexus ES/RX) or to do the value play. I'd argue several auto makers have made cars as good as the German offerings, but the market was not willing to pay German prices for them. So the notion that nobody has ever made cars good enough is kind of a strawman. Plus the heavy lease subsidies the Germans do skews things too. BMW leases more than 3/4 of its cars in the US.... in that context, what does MSRP even mean? Everything comes down to lease terms.

      So yea Infiniti is not without its problems but I don't think it's as simple as "Infiniti bad Germans good". The fact that you went with an Infiniti speaks to that.
      I loaded up an M340xi with $1900 Individual paint, every option package, came out to $69,275. Infiniti Q50RS AWD with base paint (no price increase) and Proactive package (only option available) came out to $61,300. That's a significant premium, but you also don't have to add $10k worth of options to the M340. The Infiniti would have to be about $48k for your statement to be true, which it is not, unless Infiniti is giving $13k in incentives.

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      03-21-2020 05:21 PM #55
      Looks like the price gap shrank a good bit between 2019 and 2020. A loaded Q50RS is $6-7K more expensive, and a loaded 340i is cheaper. I was going off what I saw last year.

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      03-23-2020 01:37 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Looks like the price gap shrank a good bit between 2019 and 2020. A loaded Q50RS is $6-7K more expensive, and a loaded 340i is cheaper. I was going off what I saw last year.
      Infiniti finally updated the infotainment system on the Q50/60s, they now come with Carplay/Android Auto. Perhaps that's why

      OTOH, why Lexus is still in business? Some of their buyers are just buying them like they do Camrys like it was mentioned, or ignorant of the current state of the brand that they even accuse some Lexus forum mods of bias that the "sky is falling", when it sort of is. Hey, its good enough to keep the brand #3.
      Last edited by got-rice; 03-23-2020 at 01:42 AM.

    8. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 08:09 AM #57
      I think there are several realities at play here. Lexus (the only real competitor to Mercedes/BMW) sells vehicles, IMO, every bit as good as what the Germans sell on an objective level. Not everything needs to be capable of carving corners for example. And if I'm after a real luxury car experience, I would prefer a softer ride anyway. The reality is that the Germans still set the agenda across the industry. They have a much deeper history (both just building cars and in sexy things like factory race cars) and are FAR, FAR, FAR better at selling a dream than Lexus. Lexus is well, a sensible, very well built choice. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche sell a dream and an experience. It's really just that simple IMO. Infiniti IMO doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation as they're about on the same level as Acura, IMO. They're ok cars, but they seem like a brand that exists to be much different than the Nissan brand.

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      03-23-2020 09:44 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      I think there are several realities at play here. Lexus (the only real competitor to Mercedes/BMW) sells vehicles, IMO, every bit as good as what the Germans sell on an objective level. Not everything needs to be capable of carving corners for example. And if I'm after a real luxury car experience, I would prefer a softer ride anyway. The reality is that the Germans still set the agenda across the industry. They have a much deeper history (both just building cars and in sexy things like factory race cars) and are FAR, FAR, FAR better at selling a dream than Lexus. Lexus is well, a sensible, very well built choice. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche sell a dream and an experience. It's really just that simple IMO. Infiniti IMO doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation as they're about on the same level as Acura, IMO. They're ok cars, but they seem like a brand that exists to be much different than the Nissan brand.
      I don't want to be pessimistic, but I can't imagine Infiniti surviving a potential economic slowdown.
      Nissan is already on thin ice, as it is. I don't think they will try to keep Infiniti alive, while trying to save the overall company.
      They can easily fold Infiniti's best selling models back into the Nissan brand, to still support those customers.
      I don't even know what their best selling models are anymore, anyway!
      The Armada/Patrol twin?
      The largest crossover?

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      03-23-2020 09:50 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Are you counting their fleet sales? I dont really consider stripper taxis and work vans as luxury vehicles.
      My local Mercedes dealership is surrounded by white box vans.
      It looks like a GMC dealership!
      I think Mercedes counts its van sales independently, at least in the US.
      The commercial vehicle strategy is definitely a smart move, however, especially if personal vehicle sales start to decline.

    11. Member TurboREX's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 09:54 AM #60
      IMO Lexus and Infiniti styling on the majority of their cars has been questionable at best, interiors are small (built for Asian sized humans), and they never really got the balance right between luxury, performance and value.

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      03-23-2020 10:09 AM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      Infiniti finally updated the infotainment system on the Q50/60s, they now come with Carplay/Android Auto. Perhaps that's why

      OTOH, why Lexus is still in business? Some of their buyers are just buying them like they do Camrys like it was mentioned, or ignorant of the current state of the brand that they even accuse some Lexus forum mods of bias that the "sky is falling", when it sort of is. Hey, its good enough to keep the brand #3.
      Lexus covers a nice middle ground. Not everyone is wowed by brand heritage or chassis dynamics. I think something like a Lexus ES is more rational/high value/realistic than an equivalent German lease special- IF driving dynamics aren't a priority, which frankly they aren't for 90% of the driving population.

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      03-23-2020 10:20 AM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      I don't want to be pessimistic, but I can't imagine Infiniti surviving a potential economic slowdown.
      Nissan is already on thin ice, as it is. I don't think they will try to keep Infiniti alive, while trying to save the overall company.
      They can easily fold Infiniti's best selling models back into the Nissan brand, to still support those customers.
      I don't even know what their best selling models are anymore, anyway!
      The Armada/Patrol twin?
      The largest crossover?
      Nobody is gonna pay $50-60K for a Nissan Q50/Q60 in America. If anything, they should move the Maxima & Murano up to the Infiniti brand, with some powertrain (and in the case of the Murano, interior) upgrades.

      Quote Originally Posted by TurboREX View Post
      IMO Lexus and Infiniti styling on the majority of their cars has been questionable at best, interiors are small (built for Asian sized humans), and they never really got the balance right between luxury, performance and value.
      The only Lexus/Infiniti that was on the small side I can remember was the last Lexus IS. The Infiniti G/M/Q50/60/70 have always been bigger than the German competition; the ES/RX are way bigger for the money etc. And given that the G20 looks like a Lexus....................................

    14. Member Samson's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 10:30 AM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Nobody is gonna pay $50-60K for a Nissan Q50/Q60 in America. If anything, they should move the Maxima & Murano up to the Infiniti brand, with some powertrain (and in the case of the Murano, interior) upgrades.

      The only Lexus/Infiniti that was on the small side I can remember was the last Lexus IS. The Infiniti G/M/Q50/60/70 have always been bigger than the German competition; the ES/RX are way bigger for the money etc.
      Yeah, a major selling point of the G (and probably the M) was that it was in between the standard sizing, yet cost less, generally had higher performance, and was a better value. Not as refined, for sure, but that was mostly traded for engagement. Styling is too subjective to be a consideration... I mean, look at all of the modern BMWs and Lexuseses you see on the roads.

      As much as I'd prefer to not spend the premium on a Infiniti/Lexus over the comparable Nissan/Toyota (that you cannot buy in this country), the dealer experience seems to be far better with the luxury badged version. The "better' badge or brand is pretty much irrelevant to me, but you do get better service... as well as the bigger engine, better chassis, more depreciation, etc.

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      03-23-2020 10:56 AM #64
      Something else I just thought of.

      Usually when you create a segment or establish yourself as a benchmark in it, you pretty much have it for life. Once people associate a segment with a vehicle, as long as that vehicle doesn't go to complete ****, it pretty much has the segment on lock.

      The clearest indication of this is the Camry. It couldn't have come at a better time, and Toyota worked extremely hard to establish it as the midsize mainstream benchmark. Once they did that, they took their foot off the gas for a good 20 or so years. The 5th gen ('98-02 I think?) was a huge step back from the baby Lexus '93-97 gen. The '07 was a big update, but then they literally didn't touch the mechanicals or platform for a decade. It was the same with the Corolla pretty much. When your brand is so strong you can basically change body panels and remain the top seller in a segment- what can your competition do to knock you off?

      So I think the Germans have that same level of brand power. The F30 was not very good at many of the key things a 3 series is known to be good at. But it was the top selling generation in the US. Mercedes has had some design and quality missteps since the W123-6 generations that built their reputations. Still the top volume luxury brand decades later. The fact that VWAG even exists after the MK4 era shows how strong their brands are. What could the non-Germans do to overcome that? The market clearly has a double standard for brands that I'm not sure will ever change. It's not even a battle worth fighting IMO. Especially considering how saturated the luxury market is. The best any non German brand can hope for is to carve out a little niche that warrants the investment. But I don't think we will ever see the day when a non-German brand takes the top luxury spot around the globe.

    16. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 01:03 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      I think there are several realities at play here. Lexus (the only real competitor to Mercedes/BMW) sells vehicles, IMO, every bit as good as what the Germans sell on an objective level. Not everything needs to be capable of carving corners for example. And if I'm after a real luxury car experience, I would prefer a softer ride anyway. The reality is that the Germans still set the agenda across the industry. They have a much deeper history (both just building cars and in sexy things like factory race cars) and are FAR, FAR, FAR better at selling a dream than Lexus. Lexus is well, a sensible, very well built choice. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche sell a dream and an experience. It's really just that simple IMO. Infiniti IMO doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation as they're about on the same level as Acura, IMO. They're ok cars, but they seem like a brand that exists to be much different than the Nissan brand.
      I don't think that is true at all about Lexus. Objectively, Lexus vehicles are lacking compared to Germans.

      There is no 3 row CUV from Lexus where the 3rd row is fit for actual humans. If Acura can figure this out, there is no reason why Lexus can't do it.

      There is no 4 door coupes from Lexus if you desire something with 4 doors and a tiny bit of style. Again, ES is great but why is ES the only offering of substance from Lexus? Where is the ES coupe?

      There is no CUV coupes that evidently is what Americans really want to buy from luxury brands right now.

      And Germans knows how to play the soft ride pillow car games too. I haven't heard anyone say the 5-series ride is too stiff or the steering is too communicative lately

      But I do agree about Infiniti... it's about as irrelevant as you can get for a supposedly luxury auto brand. There is no sizzle and the steak is overcooked.

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      03-23-2020 02:01 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      I think there are several realities at play here. Lexus (the only real competitor to Mercedes/BMW) sells vehicles, IMO, every bit as good as what the Germans sell on an objective level. Not everything needs to be capable of carving corners for example. And if I'm after a real luxury car experience, I would prefer a softer ride anyway. The reality is that the Germans still set the agenda across the industry. They have a much deeper history (both just building cars and in sexy things like factory race cars) and are FAR, FAR, FAR better at selling a dream than Lexus. Lexus is well, a sensible, very well built choice. BMW, Mercedes, and Porsche sell a dream and an experience. It's really just that simple IMO. Infiniti IMO doesn't really deserve to be in this conversation as they're about on the same level as Acura, IMO. They're ok cars, but they seem like a brand that exists to be much different than the Nissan brand.
      Audi is the primary competitor to Mercedes and BMW, not Lexus. Look at global sales volume, product mix and ATPs. What are these objective measurements you are referencing?

    18. 03-23-2020 02:22 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      I don't think that is true at all about Lexus. Objectively, Lexus vehicles are lacking compared to Germans.
      You forgot to address one big point- the vast majority of Lexus vehicles are at the extreme end of reliable. That cannot be said of any of the German brands. Maybe they're boring and don't fit into every niche, but they are really well made and engineered to be quite durable.

    19. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 02:25 PM #68
      I'm not even going to touch on Infiniti, which is a dumpster fire, or Acura, which is a dumpster fire outside of the RDX/MDX which are very much class-competitive.

      I think for Lexus, the biggest issue is the rise of leasing in the luxury space. If you are a buyer, things like long-term reliability, MSRP/transactional price, and resale value are of critical importance. The luxury market used to be buy and hold, at least more so than now.

      But now that it's lease all the things, no one cares about reliability past 36k miles, and things like resale value and MSRP can be thrown out the window as much as the automakers want to subsidize lease prices and put the lease payment wherever they want it, rather than where economics dictates it should be. So in that world, there's really no downside to buying German, and that removes the biggest advantage for Lexus.


      On a personal note, there are three major and one minor reason I haven't/won't consider Lexus when shopping in that range:

      1. Terrible and dated infotainment and UI/touchpad/mousething
      2. Loooong model cycles and outdated models
      3. Poor market segment choices; no real 3-row crossover (not willing to pay the penalties for a BOF 3-row), abandonment of the midsized sedan market outside of the FWD ES, awful powertrain choices in the smaller CUVs, etc etc

      4. Front end styling (would overlook if it wasn't for 1-3)

      We'll be in the market for a new CUV in the next year, somewhere in the $45-60k range. A Lexus should be squarely in our sights, but none fit the bill. Even if we skip the tentative 3-row desire (not requirement), the Lexus touchpad thingy is just terrible to use. And I can't with a straight face suggest my wife buy a new 2020 same-as-2012 GX.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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      03-23-2020 03:54 PM #69
      Another though that just came to me: I have been watching Entourage the past few weeks, and in a couple of the middle seasons, Ari, the high-powered Hollywood agent, is driving an LS460 Hybrid instead of his E65 7-series or his MB S550. This was from maybe 10-15 years ago; any chance of that happening today, an LS as a stand in for an S class or 7? Not a chance.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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      03-23-2020 04:44 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I'm not even going to touch on Infiniti, which is a dumpster fire, or Acura, which is a dumpster fire outside of the RDX/MDX which are very much class-competitive.

      I think for Lexus, the biggest issue is the rise of leasing in the luxury space. If you are a buyer, things like long-term reliability, MSRP/transactional price, and resale value are of critical importance. The luxury market used to be buy and hold, at least more so than now.

      But now that it's lease all the things, no one cares about reliability past 36k miles, and things like resale value and MSRP can be thrown out the window as much as the automakers want to subsidize lease prices and put the lease payment wherever they want it, rather than where economics dictates it should be. So in that world, there's really no downside to buying German, and that removes the biggest advantage for Lexus.


      On a personal note, there are three major and one minor reason I haven't/won't consider Lexus when shopping in that range:

      1. Terrible and dated infotainment and UI/touchpad/mousething
      2. Loooong model cycles and outdated models
      3. Poor market segment choices; no real 3-row crossover (not willing to pay the penalties for a BOF 3-row), abandonment of the midsized sedan market outside of the FWD ES, awful powertrain choices in the smaller CUVs, etc etc

      4. Front end styling (would overlook if it wasn't for 1-3)

      We'll be in the market for a new CUV in the next year, somewhere in the $45-60k range. A Lexus should be squarely in our sights, but none fit the bill. Even if we skip the tentative 3-row desire (not requirement), the Lexus touchpad thingy is just terrible to use. And I can't with a straight face suggest my wife buy a new 2020 same-as-2012 GX.
      I think your point about the market shift to leasing is legit. However, on your reasons not to consider Lexus:

      1. I also wrote them off because of their infotainment, but everyone I know who has owned the cars for some time says it's something you get used to. Plus as a current Acura and Lincoln owner I have found that all that really matters for infotainment is having steering wheel controls, and at the absolute worst a place to mount your phone. I had a bad time with IDrive in the F30 rental I had.

      2. Don't see why this matters. The Camry was a best seller while riding on the same platform for a decade.

      3. The 3 row (and a RWD replacement for the GS) are legit complaints, but Lexus didn't abandon the midsize luxury sedan market, consumers did. No sense in throwing good money after the bad; a new GS would do about as well as the CT6. And IMO it's still one of the best entries in its segment due largely to its reliability.

      4. Subjective, but BMW is doubling down on ugly faces too.

      To be fair, I wouldn't bother with a Lexus crossover either- NX and RX are too slow, and the NX is cramped compared to its competition. But most luxury buyers aren't getting a crossover for thrills. RX hasn't remained #1 in its class with Predator face and all these problems for no reason.

    22. Senior Member bzcat's Avatar
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      03-23-2020 05:00 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by t44tq View Post
      You forgot to address one big point- the vast majority of Lexus vehicles are at the extreme end of reliable. That cannot be said of any of the German brands. Maybe they're boring and don't fit into every niche, but they are really well made and engineered to be quite durable.
      Lexus is more reliable no doubt. Statistic backs this up. But the issue here is the marginal difference. Germans are not unreliable, they just have slightly higher level of reported issues, which on average over the course of a typical 36 months ownership period may result in one extra visit to the dealer. In another word, it's not really a thing people care about. Lexus' bullet proof reputation is a selling point only for the super paranoid and they don't tend to buy a lot of new luxury cars. The original Lexus formula was value plus reliability. Now it is just reliability and that's not a selling point when Porsche is also at the top of JD Power survey.

      On the other hand, Lexus is able to achieve the statistical margin mainly by offering outdated infortainment system. People have to live with outdated infortainment everyday and they can do the mental trade-off really well. Lexus is basically a victim of its own success. They've internalized the low JD Power reported issue scoring system that they have elected to not innovate. This is why Lexus has yesterday tech inside, a 15 years old ladder frame SUV going up against unibody CUV, and rather ho hum powertrain under the hood. These things help ES and RX stay at the top of the class for JD Power scores but people don't really care that much the marginal difference in reliability. Audi or Mercedes offering aren't catastrophically unreliable like they were in the 90s and they have fancy toys and endless turbo charged torque. BMW is so boring now, they are basically like Lexus so what is Lexus got to do to stand out? Lexus doesn't have that answer either BTW, which is why they are floundering.
      Last edited by bzcat; 03-23-2020 at 05:03 PM.

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      03-23-2020 05:02 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by bzcat View Post
      I don't think that is true at all about Lexus. Objectively, Lexus vehicles are lacking compared to Germans.
      My point is that as far as luxury vehicles are concerned, Lexus makes a very competitive product for the average person. I didn't at all say or imply anything about the number of vehicles they sell.

      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      Audi is the primary competitor to Mercedes and BMW, not Lexus. Look at global sales volume, product mix and ATPs. What are these objective measurements you are referencing?
      Lexus competes with all 3---that's the group they're in with. Sorry---I didn't include Audi, but I generally don't think very highly of the brand and always forget about them when discussing higher end german brands. There's no argument that Lexus makes a very high quality vehicle, luxurious, smooth, and reliable/durable vehicle.

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      03-23-2020 05:28 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      To be fair, I wouldn't bother with a Lexus crossover either- NX and RX are too slow, and the NX is cramped compared to its competition. But most luxury buyers aren't getting a crossover for thrills. RX hasn't remained #1 in its class with Predator face and all these problems for no reason.
      Lexus has a lot of legacy owners, most who grew up owning Toyotas, so its not a big surprise. I suppose the female buying power has made it so, not to mention that these are also favorites of most every Asian immigrant mom, at least in my neighborhood and garage (Mom has had 2 of them).

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      03-23-2020 06:29 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      My point is that as far as luxury vehicles are concerned, Lexus makes a very competitive product for the average person. I didn't at all say or imply anything about the number of vehicles they sell.


      Lexus competes with all 3---that's the group they're in with. Sorry---I didn't include Audi, but I generally don't think very highly of the brand and always forget about them when discussing higher end german brands. There's no argument that Lexus makes a very high quality vehicle, luxurious, smooth, and reliable/durable vehicle.
      Oh, so by objectively you actually meant "the opinion I came up with regarding these brands some time in the last 30 years". No worries

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      03-23-2020 06:40 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      To be fair, I wouldn't bother with a Lexus crossover either- NX and RX are too slow, and the NX is cramped compared to its competition.
      After a year, the UX seems like a sales failure, as I never see them.
      https://www.lexus.ca/lexus/en/automobiles/ux

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