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    1. 05-07-2020 09:33 PM #226
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      How do these ATPs correct for lease pricing? If you can lease a $50k sticker 328i for $400/mo the $50k sticker part doesn’t really mean anything.

      Would surmise that they (in this case, Cox Automotive which is a sister company of KBB and AutoTrader) either just looks at purchases or (more likely) just take the negotiated price of the auto in the case for leases.

      Actual monthly lease payments can differ on the same vehicle depending on region, how much is placed as a down payment, length of the lease, residual value, etc.

      But yes, BMW and MB (and to a certain extent, Infiniti) have been better positioned to offer favorable lease terms; but that's been the case for some time now, so shouldn't make a difference when comparing data from a decade ago, esp. if calculate things on the basis of the negotiated price of the vehicle leased.
      Last edited by CP1; 05-07-2020 at 09:38 PM.
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      06-01-2020 12:22 PM #227

      June 01, 2020
      Nissan plots an Infiniti reboot to cap revival
      HANS GREIMEL - Automotive News

      TOKYO — Not long ago, the Infiniti premium brand aspired to move upmarket in the glow of Mercedes-Benz through a then-celebrated tie-up between Nissan Motor Co. and Daimler.

      But the Japanese automaker, now wallowing in red ink and with Infiniti still groping for traction, is making an overhaul of the brand a centerpiece of its drastic new U.S. revival plan.

      Under the strategy, Infiniti will no longer be a mini-Mercedes. It will be "Nissan-plus."

      COO Ashwani Gupta outlined the Infiniti revamp last week as Nissan unveiled a revised four-year midterm plan.

      Nissan's wider restructuring road map cuts billions in costs, slashes production capacity and trims the lineup to reemerge as a smaller, more profitable company. But part of that will mean high-end Infiniti will share platforms, powertrains and assembly plants with the mass-market Nissan brand in a move to boost product development efficiencies by as much as half.

      Under the shuffle, Infiniti's trademark rear- wheel-drive coupe and sedans — epitomized by the Q50, Q60 and Q70 — may eventually die off. In their place would come a Nissan platform, possibly pulled from the Altima or Maxima sedans, that accommodates the company's e-Power hybrid setup.

      Infiniti, which saw global sales stagnate and then fall over the past four years, will focus mostly on the U.S. and China and get its own high-performance variant of e-Power to set it apart from rivals.

      "We will bring back Infiniti as Nissan-plus, in terms of product and technology," Gupta told Automotive News in discussing Nissan's larger restructuring. The efficiencies brought by piggybacking Infiniti on top of Nissan are envisioned as powering a rapid rollout of new models.

      The first Infiniti vehicles under the new approach should debut by 2023.

      "Infiniti will be great again," Gupta pledged.

      Correcting course
      In many ways, Infiniti's woes are emblematic of the wider problems Nissan is trying to fix. For years, under the direction of former Chairman Carlos Ghosn, Nissan pursued a rapid worldwide expansion, pushing into emerging markets, moving higher into luxury territory, reviving the entry-level Datsun brand name and rolling out new commercial vehicles. In short, Ghosn's Nissan Motor Co. was trying to do everything, everywhere.

      Last week, in announcing Nissan's worst net loss since Ghosn's first year at the company in 1999, CEO Makoto Uchida said a drastic restructuring is needed to set the company back on a profit path after years of expanding too fast into too many markets in the pursuit of lofty sales volumes."To continue our business and generate a profit under these conditions has been extremely difficult," Uchida said, adding that executives would take various compensation cuts in light of the losses. "For Nissan to overcome this situation, we must admit our mistakes and correct course."

      Ghosn had wanted Infiniti to account for 10 percent of the world's luxury market and rack up annual sales of 500,000 vehicles. Instead, Infiniti's global volume peaked at 249,000 vehicles in 2018, before dropping 24 percent to 188,994 last year.

      Global sales shortfalls left Nissan Motor overstretched and strapped for resources to renew the lineups. In the end, both the Nissan and Infiniti brands were often left flogging outdated vehicles with outdated technology.

      As part of Ghosn's grand vision to establish a global megamanufacturer, he brought Daimler into the Renault-Nissan orbit through a 2010 deal with then-Daimler CEO Dieter Zetsche. Daimler took 3.1 percent stakes in Nissan and Renault. The two alliance companies took 1.55 percent stakes each in their new German partner.

      The partnership was more casual than the linkup between Nissan and Renault. But through platform-sharing and manufacturing deals, Daimler would become a key supplier of Infiniti's portfolio.

      As part of the deal, Daimler and Nissan jointly built a $1.4 billion plant in Mexico with capacity for 300,000 vehicles a year for Mercedes-Benz and Infiniti. In the end, the project only exacerbated Nissan's overcapacity problems. Last year, the shared plant in Aguascalientes churned out just 30,294 Infiniti QX50 crossovers.

      Nissan still makes 2.0-liter turbocharged engines for both Infiniti and Mercedes at a factory in Decherd, Tenn., based on Mercedes engine architecture. But the slow-selling Infiniti Q30 hatchback and QX30 compact crossover, based on the Mercedes-Benz A-Class platform, were unceremoniously dumped in 2019 after only four years.

      Today, Infiniti vehicles are made at six facilities around the world — two in Japan, two in China, the Mexico plant and Nissan's Smyrna, Tenn., factory, which makes the QX60 crossover. This is for a global lineup of only six main nameplates that generate worldwide volume of less than 200,000.

      Under Nissan's midterm plan, called Nissan Next, the No. 2 Japanese automaker wants to cut about $2.78 billion in fixed costs. It also proposes to cut its global production capacity from 7.2 million to 5.4 million vehicles.

      The reconfiguration will boost the company's factory utilization to 80 percent, from around 70 percent today. Nissan also will trim the number of nameplates 20 percent to shrink the global lineup to fewer than 55 models from 69. It will focus on a smaller number of more profitable core models and roll them out more quickly to bring the average portfolio age below 4 years.

      The restructuring comes on the heels of a 30 percent tumble in Nissan Group's U.S. sales through March in an overall market that was down 12 percent. The Nissan brand fell 30 percent to 232,048 vehicles, while Infiniti slid 26 percent to 25,558.

      In May, Infiniti's recently appointed global chairman, Mike Colleran, was re-tasked after less than two months to take over Nissan Division sales for the U.S. Succeeding him as Infiniti chairman, effective this week, is Peyman Kargar, a former Renault executive.

      U.S. goals
      Gupta, as the prime architect of the turnaround, said the U.S. strategy hinges on improved dealer relations and refreshed product.

      "There is a fine line between quantity of sales and quality of sales," Gupta said. "Last year, we really choked the dealers. But now we have restarted. We have great product and great dealers and now are connecting both with a sustainable, transparent business scheme."

      But Infiniti's repositioning is a throwback to the mid-2000s when its lineup included reworked Nissans loaded with upmarket flourishes. The automaker later dropped that strategy in favor of creating unique Infiniti products.

      However, the new plan is also analogous to the strategy of Infiniti's closest competitor — Honda Motor Co.'s Acura brand, which scores niche success in the U.S. by rolling out sibling nameplates of the mass-market Honda brand that have a unique design and more premium features.
      But reviving Infiniti, especially as an upmarket Nissan, won't be easy because of its tiny presence and drooping brand image, said Michelle Krebs, executive analyst at Autotrader.

      "The brand is kind of damaged right now because the sales are dreadful," Krebs said. "How do you maintain a dealer base with that? They have a tough road ahead to pull this off."

      Last year, Infiniti's sales in the U.S. fell 21 percent in an overall market down just 1.2 percent.

      Infiniti's rework is a repudiation of the upmarket gambit to share engineering with Mercedes-Benz.

      That strategy, which delivered the short-lived Q30 and QX30, fizzled because the price-sensitive Infiniti brand couldn't absorb the higher cost structure of the Daimler-designed models.

      The partnership was largely sustained by the personal rapport of the men leading both companies, Ghosn at the Renault-Nissan alliance and Zetsche at Daimler. But both of those executives are gone from the industry scene, and new projects have been mostly dormant.

      Last week, Jean-Dominique Senard, Ghosn's successor as Renault chairman and alliance figurehead, hinted that deals with Daimler are far from dead.

      "In terms of the atmosphere of this alliance, it is strong, and it's getting stronger. And I deeply hope that we will be able to give some news about this alliance in the coming weeks," Senard said of Daimler. "It's a little early, but in the coming weeks. And it's a very, very positive move."
      https://www.autonews.com/automakers-...ot-cap-revival

    4. Member Taco1933's Avatar
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      06-01-2020 12:31 PM #228
      If they turn the q50 into a maxima+ then good luck. That’s the only car they have that’s even close. And then what happens to the Skyline?

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      06-01-2020 12:47 PM #229
      No surprise given their meager budget. They were already on their way to this when they canceled the RWD QX70 replacement and began work on a fancy Murano-based QX70 instead.
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      06-01-2020 12:48 PM #230
      A rear-biased AWD system would give the FWD Nissan donor platforms enough of a distinctive feel for Infiniti owners.
      Making fancy Maximas, Altimas, Pathfinders, and Rogues wouldn't disappoint Infiniti customers one bit.
      The coupe, I imagine will still be shared with the Z, and the QX90(?) will still be based on the Armada, so I don't really see a lot of change in strategy.

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      06-01-2020 12:54 PM #231
      Infiniti just cant seem to get out of its own way
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      06-01-2020 01:03 PM #232
      Quote Originally Posted by Taco1933 View Post
      If they turn the q50 into a maxima+ then good luck. That’s the only car they have that’s even close. And then what happens to the Skyline?
      **** the R35 GT-R..... it's honestly been a waste of time and money from day one. A pointless vanity project that has clearly done jack **** for the company.

      As unenthusiast as this plan is, honestly it makes sense. Most Infinitis are just nice Nissans anyway, and Lexus' top sellers are just nice Toyotas. The Maxima is nice enough to be an Infiniti, and frankly has a better interior than the Q50/Q60 IMO. Bumping it up to an Infiniti would give it room to grow. The Pathfinder is long overdue for an update so that would obviously prompt an update to the QX60 as well.

      As far as the Q50/60, personally I think killing them off is a bit much.... I would like to see them make the Maxima the Q50, and make some superficial but targeted upgrades to the Q50/60 to move them upmarket. Longer wheelbases with more prestige gap, new, updated, higher quality interiors, obviously new sheetmetal too. They prob don't have the cash to make a new FX but I think that would cap off the brand nicely. Then they would have a full lineup and could adapt the LX platform strategy for their RWD cars. Nobody really gives a **** about platform age, it's just something people on the internet say to sound knowledgeable and discerning.

      Unfortunately they really whiffed on some investments... doubling down on the ****ty CVT and the variable compression 2.0T that swung and missed. That money would have been better spent on either upgrading the CVT with a Corolla style launch gear or moving to a regular planetary box

      But honestly there's no reason the QX50/QX60/Maxima couldn't go toe to toe with the Lexus NX/RX/ES, which is really the heart of the market and where money is made. The RWD sport sedan/coupe market is fiercely competitive and oversaturated- IMO the smartest play is to not even bother but if you want to compete you have to be ready to spend money and make commitments that just aren't feasible for Nissan at this time. They have to put on a brave face and spin it as bold, but in the long run I think it's the smarter play. I can think of a few brands following the internet's advice that probably won't be around much longer.
      Last edited by CTK; 06-01-2020 at 01:06 PM.
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      06-01-2020 01:05 PM #233
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      A rear-biased AWD system would give the FWD Nissan donor platforms enough of a distinctive feel for Infiniti owners.
      Making fancy Maximas, Altimas, Pathfinders, and Rogues wouldn't disappoint Infiniti customers one bit.
      The coupe, I imagine will still be shared with the Z, and the QX90(?) will still be based on the Armada, so I don't really see a lot of change in strategy.
      Agreed, they've already been doing the Acura thing, but they are saying these new cars will start debuting in 2023 (presumably for 2024 MY)?? Can the existing retail network keep their stores open until then?

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      06-01-2020 01:12 PM #234
      Quote Originally Posted by drod2045 View Post
      Infiniti just cant seem to get out of its own way
      They seem destined to become Japanese Buick.

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      06-01-2020 01:19 PM #235
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      As unenthusiast as this plan is, honestly it makes sense. Most Infinitis are just nice Nissans anyway, and Lexus' top sellers are just nice Toyotas.
      Is there any Infiniti that isn't/wasn't Nissan+ or even just a total badge job? Both of mine have been a handful of badges away from an Australian Nissan, and I like it that way. ROW, but still. It's not like they share platforms but have two totally different products like the Q5 and Macan. Nissan should just refine the FM platform and use that as a base for everything they sell. Done and done.


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      06-01-2020 01:58 PM #236
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      **** the R35 GT-R..... it's honestly been a waste of time and money from day one. A pointless vanity project that has clearly done jack **** for the company.

      As unenthusiast as this plan is, honestly it makes sense. Most Infinitis are just nice Nissans anyway, and Lexus' top sellers are just nice Toyotas. The Maxima is nice enough to be an Infiniti, and frankly has a better interior than the Q50/Q60 IMO. Bumping it up to an Infiniti would give it room to grow. The Pathfinder is long overdue for an update so that would obviously prompt an update to the QX60 as well.

      As far as the Q50/60, personally I think killing them off is a bit much.... I would like to see them make the Maxima the Q50, and make some superficial but targeted upgrades to the Q50/60 to move them upmarket. Longer wheelbases with more prestige gap, new, updated, higher quality interiors, obviously new sheetmetal too. They prob don't have the cash to make a new FX but I think that would cap off the brand nicely. Then they would have a full lineup and could adapt the LX platform strategy for their RWD cars. Nobody really gives a **** about platform age, it's just something people on the internet say to sound knowledgeable and discerning.

      Unfortunately they really whiffed on some investments... doubling down on the ****ty CVT and the variable compression 2.0T that swung and missed. That money would have been better spent on either upgrading the CVT with a Corolla style launch gear or moving to a regular planetary box

      But honestly there's no reason the QX50/QX60/Maxima couldn't go toe to toe with the Lexus NX/RX/ES, which is really the heart of the market and where money is made. The RWD sport sedan/coupe market is fiercely competitive and oversaturated- IMO the smartest play is to not even bother but if you want to compete you have to be ready to spend money and make commitments that just aren't feasible for Nissan at this time. They have to put on a brave face and spin it as bold, but in the long run I think it's the smarter play. I can think of a few brands following the internet's advice that probably won't be around much longer.
      I was thinking about the Japanese Skyline which is just a rebadged Q50. I think a Q50/70 (by any name) could be competitive when redesigned. That’s the one piece of Infiniti that should be salvaged if they do cancel the brand. If it ends up as a CVT front wheel based maxima+, well, woof.

      But since nobody is buying cars anymore, I doubt they’ll put much effort into salvaging that line. It’s a shame.

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      06-01-2020 03:05 PM #237
      Quote Originally Posted by Taco1933 View Post
      I was thinking about the Japanese Skyline which is just a rebadged Q50. I think a Q50/70 (by any name) could be competitive when redesigned. That’s the one piece of Infiniti that should be salvaged if they do cancel the brand. If it ends up as a CVT front wheel based maxima+, well, woof.

      But since nobody is buying cars anymore, I doubt they’ll put much effort into salvaging that line. It’s a shame.
      The problem is that whole segment is kind of dying. 3/4 series sales have fallen by 50% since 2014 in the US. The majority of those sales have shifted to the X1-X4 crossovers. If the segment creator/benchmark has fallen that far, there's no hope for a second tier offering from a manufacturer in crisis.

      Where Infiniti really goofed was not knocking the new QX50 out of the park. It costs as much as something like an RDX or Corsair but is nowhere near as good. They will be forced to play the discount game again unfortunately.

      And yea on paper the Q50 hits all the right notes. But it's kind of meh. It's no longer much cheaper than the competition but it's still not quite as good as the best. I think a FWD/AWD Maxima based replacement that spends more money on stuff relevant to the market- design, interior quality and tech (yuck) will do much better for the company and be more relevant to the sedan buying public.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

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      06-02-2020 01:44 AM #238
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      They seem destined to become Japanese Buick.
      There already is a Japanese Buick-- Lexus. Almost everyone I see driving the predator-faced ones are like 100 years old. And like the old Buicks, the old Lexuses are driven by gangsters and poor teen couples with a couple of kids who look like they just walked off the set of Maury Povich. Don't forget the chrome rims and retrofitted gold package.

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      06-02-2020 08:20 AM #239
      Quote Originally Posted by TSchuettinger View Post
      There already is a Japanese Buick-- Lexus. Almost everyone I see driving the predator-faced ones are like 100 years old. And like the old Buicks, the old Lexuses are driven by gangsters and poor teen couples with a couple of kids who look like they just walked off the set of Maury Povich. Don't forget the chrome rims and retrofitted gold package.
      ...where do you live? Around here, old Lexuses are driven by old people. They're probably the same personalities that would buy a Camry and keep it for 10 - 15 years (dents and all), but want something nicer.

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      06-02-2020 08:31 AM #240
      Quote Originally Posted by unhappymeal View Post
      ...where do you live? Around here, old Lexuses are driven by old people. They're probably the same personalities that would buy a Camry and keep it for 10 - 15 years (dents and all), but want something nicer.
      I think it's better to just ignore that comment and move on.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

    17. 06-02-2020 09:56 AM #241
      I just look at this to mean Infiniti will be moving the majority of the models to the future EV platform that all of its recent concepts and most of Nissans EV concepts have been based on. All Infiniti/Renault/NIssan/Mitsubishi EV/EREV will be based off of said platform.

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      06-02-2020 03:01 PM #242
      Quote Originally Posted by unhappymeal View Post
      ...where do you live? Around here, old Lexuses are driven by old people. They're probably the same personalities that would buy a Camry and keep it for 10 - 15 years (dents and all), but want something nicer.
      I live in the Tucson area.

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      06-02-2020 04:17 PM #243
      Quote Originally Posted by unhappymeal View Post
      ...where do you live? Around here, old Lexuses are driven by old people. They're probably the same personalities that would buy a Camry and keep it for 10 - 15 years (dents and all), but want something nicer.
      A decade or two ago, Lexus had more 'younger' buyers. The Lexus aftermarket scene with mostly IS and GS owners was prominent in my neck of the woods (California, with a predominance of Asian owners). Most of them moved on with families and what not. The enthusiasm for Lexus vehicles has definitely diminished, since most luxury cars aren't kept for more than the lease period, and vast majority of RX and ES owners aren't overnighting aftermarket parts from Japan.

    20. 06-02-2020 06:42 PM #244
      Weird thing is Infiniti now attracts the young hoodlums putting bullet lug nuts and 20s on theyre BHPH G37 with random stickers in cursive on the rear window

      I'll admit the proportions on these were great and they have aged somewhat well but the interior kinda sucks

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      06-02-2020 07:14 PM #245
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      No surprise given their meager budget. They were already on their way to this when they canceled the RWD QX70 replacement and began work on a fancy Murano-based QX70 instead.
      Yay! Badge engineering.



      Really, I give Infiniti two years at max. My buddy left Infiniti to go sell Toyota after selling Infiniti since 2008.
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      06-02-2020 08:17 PM #246
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      The problem is that whole segment is kind of dying. 3/4 series sales have fallen by 50% since 2014 in the US. The majority of those sales have shifted to the X1-X4 crossovers. If the segment creator/benchmark has fallen that far, there's no hope for a second tier offering from a manufacturer in crisis.

      Where Infiniti really goofed was not knocking the new QX50 out of the park. It costs as much as something like an RDX or Corsair but is nowhere near as good. They will be forced to play the discount game again unfortunately.

      And yea on paper the Q50 hits all the right notes. But it's kind of meh. It's no longer much cheaper than the competition but it's still not quite as good as the best. I think a FWD/AWD Maxima based replacement that spends more money on stuff relevant to the market- design, interior quality and tech (yuck) will do much better for the company and be more relevant to the sedan buying public.
      You’re probably right. I guess I’m a dinosaur that still prefers a car. The midsized SUV is what absolutely everyone wants now and Infiniti’s is garbage. I just can’t imagine they could out-Lexus Lexus in the car segment and I’d hate to lose one of the few RWD options in that segment.

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      06-02-2020 08:31 PM #247
      Didn't read the thread, but there's no shot I would trade my Lexus for a German SUV. There's also no chance I will even consider a German SUV when it's time to get rid of the 4Runner or GX470. Going back further to cars I had in the past, the German cars were absolute piles of **** compared to the Japanese cars.

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      06-02-2020 08:54 PM #248
      Quote Originally Posted by Taco1933 View Post
      You’re probably right. I guess I’m a dinosaur that still prefers a car. The midsized SUV is what absolutely everyone wants now and Infiniti’s is garbage. I just can’t imagine they could out-Lexus Lexus in the car segment and I’d hate to lose one of the few RWD options in that segment.
      Honestly even successfully playing the Lexus game will take a lot of lifting Nissan doesn't have the financial muscle for. But that's way more possible and feasible than making a 4th (5th?) swing at "the Germans".

      And I think we as enthusiasts need to let go of our emotional investment in the mere existence of cars. It's one thing if you're actually in the market for a RWD sedan, but if not Q50 or no Q50 all my bills are still coming every month. Cars come and go.... if we love them we have to appreciate and buy them new if we really want them to hang around. Kind of reminds me of when everyone went nuts when Ford cancelled all its cars. Nobody cared until the cars were on the chopping block.
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

    25. 06-02-2020 11:12 PM #249
      Even if we have seen the last days of a RWD G/Q50/60, really not much will change w/ Infiniti as pretty much everything was already FWD or BoF SUV Nissan-based w/ the demise of the Q70 and the CUVs having already reverted to FWD.

      Wouldn't totally give on up Infiniti as the new Senta has gotten pretty good reviews.

      If Nissan makes the next Pathfinder, Murano and Rogue more than competitive, then would serve as a good basis for the Infiniti variants.

      W/ the IS just getting another refresh (who knows if the next gen IS will get Mazda-fied, or go all electric?), that pretty much leaves the LS as being the lone Japanese RWD lux model that is mostly up-to-date.
      Last edited by CP1; 06-02-2020 at 11:16 PM.
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      06-03-2020 10:13 AM #250
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Honestly even successfully playing the Lexus game will take a lot of lifting Nissan doesn't have the financial muscle for. But that's way more possible and feasible than making a 4th (5th?) swing at "the Germans".

      And I think we as enthusiasts need to let go of our emotional investment in the mere existence of cars. It's one thing if you're actually in the market for a RWD sedan, but if not Q50 or no Q50 all my bills are still coming every month. Cars come and go.... if we love them we have to appreciate and buy them new if we really want them to hang around. Kind of reminds me of when everyone went nuts when Ford cancelled all its cars. Nobody cared until the cars were on the chopping block.
      I had an M35, and I did glance in Infinit’s direction when I got rid of it. They’re just too outdated to take seriously right now. But my M35 was a good ownership experience overall. When I’m car shopping again in a few years, I’d look at them if they had a updated RWD twin turbo V6 option. There’s this giant void between a charger and an e class that they kinda filled for a while. With everyone moving to SUV’s there just doesn’t seem to be much interest in filling that space.

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