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    1. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 08:00 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Yeah, there's zero "wow" or "want" factor here at all. And a tall CUV EV just doesn't scream "fantastic". But again, it's not for the masses.
      I'm assuming you meant it IS for the masses.

      Honestly, for a daily driver, I'd take one, or a Model 3. I'd favor the hatch and utility it brings. I have fun cars for weekends and times where I need to scratch the itch. But for a daily, charging at home, avoiding gas stations, having the instant torque, and quiet during my commute, along with standard adaptive cruise, I think it's spot on for that role.

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    3. 03-17-2020 08:05 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      I'm assuming you meant it IS for the masses.

      Honestly, for a daily driver, I'd take one, or a Model 3. I'd favor the hatch and utility it brings. I have fun cars for weekends and times where I need to scratch the itch. But for a daily, charging at home, avoiding gas stations, having the instant torque, and quiet during my commute, along with standard adaptive cruise, I think it's spot on for that role.
      The Model Y "is not" for the masses, its a niche model in a niche segment. It's for a select few who are into the brand. Waves will not be made here.

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      03-17-2020 08:17 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The Model Y "is not" for the masses, its a niche model in a niche segment. It's for a select few who are into the brand. Waves will not be made here.
      CUVs are a niche segment?

    5. 03-17-2020 08:18 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by Canaletto View Post
      CUVs are a niche segment?
      EV CUVs, yes!

    6. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 08:27 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The Model Y "is not" for the masses, its a niche model in a niche segment. It's for a select few who are into the brand. Waves will not be made here.
      Tesla sold around 160K Model 3s in the USA in 2019. That's not niche. Sure, it's half the amount of Camrys sold, but by no means niche. And that's a sedan, whereas this is the ever popular CUV form, with more cargo capacity. Removing the circumstances we have now with the virus, it should outsell the Model 3 apples-to-apples.

      You want niche? Look at Volvo, where their best selling vehicle was under 40K units for the year. Or Mazda, if you remove the CX-5 from the mix, as it outsold all other Mazda models combined, by a factor of 3!

    7. 03-17-2020 08:37 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      Tesla sold around 160K Model 3s in the USA in 2019. That's not niche. Sure, it's half the amount of Camrys sold, but by no means niche. And that's a sedan, whereas this is the ever popular CUV form, with more cargo capacity. Removing the circumstances we have now with the virus, it should outsell the Model 3 apples-to-apples.

      You want niche? Look at Volvo, where their best selling vehicle was under 40K units for the year. Or Mazda, if you remove the CX-5 from the mix, as it outsold all other Mazda models combined, by a factor of 3!
      In bold above add that most of those were sold on one state, that's a niche vehicle/brand.

    8. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 08:39 PM #57
      I think the Mach-E looks so much better. It’s all in the details, despite the same basic shape.


    9. 03-17-2020 08:45 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I think the Mach-E looks so much better. It’s all in the details, despite the same basic shape.

      I think they're both hideous but agree that the Mach E is at least distinctive.

      I'll give them both a pass on interiors, the tablet stuck on the dash seems to be a thing that EV peeps like, so it's all good

    10. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 08:47 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      In bold above add that most of those were sold on one state, that's a niche vehicle/brand.
      Even if that's the case, it doesn't matter, because they will sell more of the Y still, and for many urban area commuters, where the majority of vehicles are sold, it's going to be objectively a very appealing vehicle.

    11. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 08:49 PM #60
      I really really want a Model Y. Really want.

      I sat in a 3 recently and liked it but it was just a tad snug in the shoulder room. Hoping this one is better. And I get a good bonus so I can afford one.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    12. 03-17-2020 08:50 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      Even if that's the case, it doesn't matter, because they will sell more of the Y still, and for many urban area commuters, where the majority of vehicles are sold, it's going to be objectively a very appealing vehicle.
      It's true, California buys the vast majority of Teslas and most people in the rest of the country won't even know the Model Y exist or care that it does

    13. 03-17-2020 08:51 PM #62
      The roof is cool:


    14. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 09:03 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      It's true, California buys the vast majority of Teslas and most people in the rest of the country won't even know the Model Y exist or care that it does
      Californians typically buy the most cars period, EV or not, as compared to any state, with the exception of F150 sales in Texas. The fact is that including CA, but in all the other top car buying states, the Model 3 caused sales of EVs to double, and you can expect the Model Y to gain even more traction with buyers.

      Calling it a niche is a wrong label. It's a trend that's started out in one place, but is quickly gathering momentum in many other and similar (i.e. urban) areas. It's not going to be the choice of vehicle in Montana, at least not anytime soon. But for urban areas throughout the country, Tesa sales increased with the Model 3, and will do so even more with the Y.

      There's a difference between niche and trend, and the Teslas fall in the latter. That's not to say they're a fad, but it's a trend that's on its way to becoming a staple of society.

      Anyhow, if we also consider outside of the US, the Model Y should find success in Europe, in Germany and the Scandinavian countries in particular.

    15. 03-17-2020 09:16 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      Californians typically buy the most cars period, EV or not, as compared to any state, with the exception of F150 sales in Texas. The fact is that including CA, but in all the other top car buying states, the Model 3 caused sales of EVs to double, and you can expect the Model Y to gain even more traction with buyers.

      Calling it a niche is a wrong label. It's a trend that's started out in one place, but is quickly gathering momentum in many other and similar (i.e. urban) areas. It's not going to be the choice of vehicle in Montana, at least not anytime soon. But for urban areas throughout the country, Tesa sales increased with the Model 3, and will do so even more with the Y.

      There's a difference between niche and trend, and the Teslas fall in the latter. That's not to say they're a fad, but it's a trend that's on its way to becoming a staple of society.

      Anyhow, if we also consider outside of the US, the Model Y should find success in Europe, in Germany and the Scandinavian countries in particular.
      No.

      * Look at the numbers. 2018, California sold 153,000 EVs. The next closest state is a big one, New York and it only sold 15,000. The Y may sell more than the 3, CUVs rule now, but it will still be a predominately one state niche vehicle here in the states.


      * https://evadoption.com/ev-market-sha...t-share-state/

    16. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 09:34 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      No.

      * Look at the numbers. 2018, California sold 153,000 EVs. The next closest state is a big one, New York and it only sold 15,000. The Y may sell more than the 3, CUVs rule now, but it will still be a predominately one state niche vehicle here in the states.


      * https://evadoption.com/ev-market-sha...t-share-state/
      Yes, that's correct, but what I was stating was that sales of EVs in those other states (most of them) doubled (as they sold twice as many as the year before), and not that they're double that of CA. That happened because of the Model 3's introduction, which made EVs much more palatable to many. The Model Y goes even a step further. The Mach E might be even more so as it's coming from an established brand with a known dealership network. The fact is that these EVs aren't niche vehicle like say a wagon version of any car would be (like the Volvo V60 or V90, or the Audi Allroad). These are popular form factor vehicles that are EV, and have range (we're assuming the Mach E will as per Ford's statement).

      They're part of a trend that's gaining more traction, and with fuel price volatility, and government mandates (unless they're all repealed), it's going to become more and more prevalent. Don't get me wrong, I think a ton needs to be done before there's proper infrastructure in place to support that, and handling that poorly could impact the rate as which EVs become more and more popular, but again, it's not a niche. Many people want this, in CA or otherwise, and sales will show that.

    17. 03-17-2020 09:43 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      Yes, that's correct, but what I was stating was that sales of EVs in those other states (most of them) doubled (as they sold twice as many as the year before), and not that they're double that of CA. That happened because of the Model 3's introduction, which made EVs much more palatable to many. The Model Y goes even a step further. The Mach E might be even more so as it's coming from an established brand with a known dealership network. The fact is that these EVs aren't niche vehicle like say a wagon version of any car would be (like the Volvo V60 or V90, or the Audi Allroad). These are popular form factor vehicles that are EV, and have range (we're assuming the Mach E will as per Ford's statement).

      They're part of a trend that's gaining more traction, and with fuel price volatility, and government mandates (unless they're all repealed), it's going to become more and more prevalent. Don't get me wrong, I think a ton needs to be done before there's proper infrastructure in place to support that, and handling that poorly could impact the rate as which EVs become more and more popular, but again, it's not a niche. Many people want this, in CA or otherwise, and sales will show that.
      But if I tell you that one state sells 153,00 EVs and the next highest state in EV sales is 15,000, that's a huge difference and tells you that adoption is local, not nationwide. Illinois only sold 7,000 and it has a huge populous.. I too believe they will sell more Model Ys but mostly in one state. It's not going to change the dynamic outside of that market.

    18. Member dwagner88's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 10:11 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      It's true, California buys the vast majority of Teslas and most people in the rest of the country won't even know the Model Y exist or care that it does
      Where do you live that you don't see them? I live in a medium sized city in East Tennessee, and I probably see 5-6 Teslas per day. Mostly model 3's.
      Past: 1998 Accord V6 LX, 2007 Mazdaspeed 3 (KIA 2-24-11), 2009 Mazdaspeed 3 (KIA 9-19-11), 2003 Jetta GLS 2.slow (good riddance), 2010 VW GTI, 2011 Toyota Camry, 2006 NC Miata

    19. 03-17-2020 10:19 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by dwagner88 View Post
      Where do you live that you don't see them? I live in a medium sized city in East Tennessee, and I probably see 5-6 Teslas per day. Mostly model 3's.
      There's pockets of vehicles surely but they are still poorly represented in sales and numbers and on the road in your state and mine.

      Tennessee only sold 2,000 EVs in 2018, not hard to fathom that you could go along way in your state and not see many or none depending on where you are.

    20. Member Yuppie Scum's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 11:35 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      There's pockets of vehicles surely but they are still poorly represented in sales and numbers and on the road in your state and mine.

      Tennessee only sold 2,000 EVs in 2018, not hard to fathom that you could go along way in your state and not see many or none depending on where you are.
      Ok fine.

    21. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      03-17-2020 11:52 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      But if I tell you that one state sells 153,00 EVs and the next highest state in EV sales is 15,000, that's a huge difference and tells you that adoption is local, not nationwide. Illinois only sold 7,000 and it has a huge populous.. I too believe they will sell more Model Ys but mostly in one state. It's not going to change the dynamic outside of that market.
      Do you understand how trends work, and how adaptation of trends works? It starts in one area and makes it way to another and so on and so forth. EV sales started out in CA mainly, with the coming of the Model S, it started increasing in CA, and gradually moving elsewhere in the States, and then the Model 3 came out and that adaption doubled. Yes, CA still sell much more than other states, but those other states are also doubling in their EV purchases. With the Model Y, because its CUV form factor is much more desirable virtually everywhere, we should expect to see even more adaptation of EVs in these states.

      A niche vehicle is one that only appeals to a very particular segment of the population, like say a Miata, or a wagon of almost any kind like I mentioned. An EV CUV is hardly a niche. I can assure you as the infrastructure becomes more convenient, prices come down (I'm assuming we'll see a standard range Model Y as well), and more models flood the market, more and more people will want them.

      A lot of people in urban areas would gladly get an EV if it offered all of the conveniences current ICE vehicle do, mainly easy and quick fill-ups, and cost of entry. I can understand that in rural areas its appeal would be limited, but that doesn't make it a niche vehicle.

    22. Member smoothsix's Avatar
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      03-18-2020 12:39 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      If it's anything like the Model 3, which I fully expect it to be, objectively speaking, it'll be a fantastic car. Subjectively, it's fugly, has weird proportions, and doesn't give one the "fizz."
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Yeah, there's zero "wow" or "want" factor here at all. And a tall CUV EV just doesn't scream "fantastic". But again, it's not for the masses.
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      In bold above add that most of those were sold on one state, that's a niche vehicle/brand.
      I don't think the 3 or the Y was ever going to give you the sexytime feeling. I've actually come to really like the way the 3 looks, but it sure didn't strike me as particularly attractive when I first saw it, and as a sedan hater, it probably was never going to. The tall greenhouse and duck mouth made it look oddly proportioned. And the obvious comparison to the Model S -- a much wider, more dramatic model -- was inevitable when they gave it basically the exact same tail, but narrower. The best-looking 3 I've ever seen on the road was so low I thought it was an S.

      Now, we all know Burnette is going to insist on saying it's a niche model and "not for the masses" no matter how you define that, and will ignore any evidence that it's a mass-market vehicle, and it's "for" the masses at a roughly-average-new-car selling price, in the same form factor as most mass market cars, meant to appeal to a broad audience. Meh, fine.

      And yeah, I wouldn't call the Y more attractive than the 3, though it's better in videos than I expected. But man, that front 1/4 view is not good. And I can't really find the X good looking in almost any config except a totally murdered out one in our 'hood and even then, only from the back...

      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Suppositories are slippery too but it's not a bragging point


      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I sat in a 3 recently and liked it but it was just a tad snug in the shoulder room. Hoping this one is better. And I get a good bonus so I can afford one.
      3 across seating in the rear, you mean? Can't say I've tried that.
      Supercar owners: If your housekeeper can afford to register their car in your state, so can you.
      We've got an amazing country; don't like the taxes in your state, you can just move. How many other countries have this freedom?

    23. 03-18-2020 05:12 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by vwpiloto View Post
      Do you understand how trends work, and how adaptation of trends works? It starts in one area and makes it way to another and so on and so forth. EV sales started out in CA mainly, with the coming of the Model S, it started increasing in CA, and gradually moving elsewhere in the States, and then the Model 3 came out and that adaption doubled. Yes, CA still sell much more than other states, but those other states are also doubling in their EV purchases. With the Model Y, because its CUV form factor is much more desirable virtually everywhere, we should expect to see even more adaptation of EVs in these states.

      A niche vehicle is one that only appeals to a very particular segment of the population, like say a Miata, or a wagon of almost any kind like I mentioned. An EV CUV is hardly a niche. I can assure you as the infrastructure becomes more convenient, prices come down (I'm assuming we'll see a standard range Model Y as well), and more models flood the market, more and more people will want them.

      A lot of people in urban areas would gladly get an EV if it offered all of the conveniences current ICE vehicle do, mainly easy and quick fill-ups, and cost of entry. I can understand that in rural areas its appeal would be limited, but that doesn't make it a niche vehicle.
      An EV CUV that's mostly sold in one state is an absolute niche and a "trend"? Well, it a trickle, not a wave, so minuscule that it shows that it's not widespread adoption. You have to appreciate how small the EV market is. The whike market is niche. And tiny.:

      EV sales for the year (2019) have been
      sluggish. While some states such as
      California have seen EVs capture 8% of new
      sales (all-electric and plug-in hybrid), the
      rest of the country has not yet caught on.
      After doubling between 2017 and 2018, EV
      market share in the US had crept up from
      1 .6% last March to 1 .8% a year later.

      https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/...s-grew-up/amp/

      I did know how trends work and 1.6% to 2.8% (300,000 EVs sold mostly in one state in a market that sold 17 million units last year btw) isn't proof of widespread change. That measure is so small as to be irrelevant to the market as a whole.

    24. 03-18-2020 05:17 AM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by smoothsix View Post
      I don't think the 3 or the Y was ever going to give you the sexytime feeling. I've actually come to really like the way the 3 looks, but it sure didn't strike me as particularly attractive when I first saw it, and as a sedan hater, it probably was never going to. The tall greenhouse and duck mouth made it look oddly proportioned. And the obvious comparison to the Model S -- a much wider, more dramatic model -- was inevitable when they gave it basically the exact same tail, but narrower. The best-looking 3 I've ever seen on the road was so low I thought it was an S.

      Now, we all know Burnette is going to insist on saying it's a niche model and "not for the masses" no matter how you define that, and will ignore any evidence that it's a mass-market vehicle, and it's "for" the masses at a roughly-average-new-car selling price, in the same form factor as most mass market cars, meant to appeal to a broad audience. Meh, fine.

      And yeah, I wouldn't call the Y more attractive than the 3, though it's better in videos than I expected. But man, that front 1/4 view is not good. And I can't really find the X good looking in almost any config except a totally murdered out one in our 'hood and even then, only from the back...







      3 across seating in the rear, you mean? Can't say I've tried that.
      The Y is made for people but it's target audience is tiny and mostly local, so no, it was directed at that market. Which I don't blame them for. They only sold 900 EVs in Vermont.

    25. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      03-18-2020 06:53 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I think the Mach-E looks so much better. It’s all in the details, despite the same basic shape.

      I think the headlights on the Y suits the basic shape so much better than the headlights on the Mach-E, which to me looks really out of place. Almost like they have borrowed from another model like some low volume brand (I realise that that is not the case). I also not a fan of how much higher the nose looks. Lastly I think it is a seriously wasted opportunity to not clean up the cabin more when you are first going with the huge central screen anyway. My preferred solution would be to replace the gauge cluster with the central screen and a Hud display, which neither manages to do funnily enough.
      Last edited by Galrot; 03-18-2020 at 06:56 AM.

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      03-18-2020 12:40 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      The Model Y "is not" for the masses, its a niche model in a niche segment. It's for a select few who are into the brand. Waves will not be made here.
      It's odd how you seem to be wrong very often and fight all of your wrong points to the death.

      LOL at citing California sales from last year. The thing that matters in a discussion about the Y release is what Tesla's sales look like over the next decade or more as EV adoption grows significantly. The Y and Cybertruck are setting the brand up to target the top selling segments. It would be a less ridiculous comment that the 3 is a niche product in North America because such a small percentage of $40-$60k vehicle purchases in this country are sedans.

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