Fourtitude.com - Samsung experimenting with lithium-free solid state battery good for 500,000+ miles
Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    Fourtitude.com


    Results 1 to 12 of 12
    1. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 6th, 2000
      Location
      Phoenix area
      Posts
      34,444
      03-12-2020 07:22 PM #1
      Let me point out straight off it's still in the experimental phase but still, this is a pretty big deal. 500 miles per charge is probably a reflection of perhaps a 30-50% increase in energy density, as that's often what SSBs are quoted as having such an advantage over conventional battery packs. So if GM's 200kwh batteries become 300kwh batteries by the year 2030 or 2035 that truly makes EV pickup trucks practical for a massive portion of the private and commercial uses. Also EV garbage trucks are on the cusp of being practical and are another area where it's likely that we'd see a rapid adoption if they had 50% the energy density at comparable or lower costs to today's battery tech.

      But most importantly: high energy density really starts making EV sports cars more practical. That's the clear path forward for us as enthusiasts.

      Quote Originally Posted by Car and Driver
      Samsung Reveals Breakthrough: Solid-State EV Battery with 500-Mile Range

      For years, solid-state batteries have been heralded as the answer to many of the issues surrounding EVs. The battery technology allows for greater energy density, which translates into more range from the same size pack as a lithium-ion battery. The problem has been that the failure rate is far too high after repeated charging. Also, they’re super expensive. But Samsung may have solved the first issue.

      Researchers at the Samsung Advanced Institute of Technology (SAIT) and the Samsung R&D Institute Japan (SRJ) decided to remove the lithium metal anodes used in solid-state batteries and replace them with a thin silver-carbon layer. It’s those lithium-metal anodes that cause issues with the batteries. They grow dendrites (tiny crystal spikes) that bore through the electrolyte and cause a short circuit during charging. Hence the low life expectancy of a solid-state battery.

      The researchers say that using silver-carbon instead of lithium metal in a prototype pouch yields a battery with a higher capacity, lengthens the cycle life, and makes the battery safer. The layer of silver-carbon measures only five micrometers thick, but if it can accomplish in the real world what the Samsung team pulled off in the lab, it could substantively change EVs in the future.

      The pouch that the team created would give an EV a range of about 500 miles and have a lifecycle of more than 1000 recharges. That's a vehicle with a battery that lasts 500,000 miles. Plus, the battery pack created during the research was 50 percent smaller than a conventional lithium-ion battery.

      Before you cancel your Cybertruck reservation or take back that Chevy Bolt EV, this technology is probably years away from making it into cars. Solid-state technology has been the dream of automakers and EV fans for a while. It's promising research, but don’t expect it to appear in showrooms just yet.

    2. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    3. Member BlakeV's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 24th, 2015
      Location
      Original join 1999
      Posts
      2,001
      Cars
      2019 Audi S5 Sportback
      03-12-2020 07:25 PM #2
      I have more trust in a cancer cure than this.

    4. 03-12-2020 07:28 PM #3
      Why not believe. No one thought Lithium Ion batteries would work for a reasonable price.

      And then there's Tesla.

    5. Member
      Join Date
      Jan 18th, 2018
      Posts
      6,321
      Cars
      '16 TLX SH-AWD- NA is BEST
      03-12-2020 11:10 PM #4
      I'll believe it when I can buy it. I don't think this is going to do much for sports cars either

      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      I spent my entire season budget during the off-season on go fast parts, so now I'm wishing I hadn't and had saved a little so I could buy a sim rig.

    6. Member
      Join Date
      Feb 27th, 2016
      Posts
      468
      Cars
      2016 GSW TSI, AT, Comfortline, H&R street performance coil-overs
      03-13-2020 12:49 AM #5
      Stories like this confirm my belief that buying a Tesla or any other BEV would be like buying a Motorola brick phone...technology changes so fast the car makers are struggling to pawn off their old tech fast enough. By the time they gear up to produce the lithium batteries efficiently the factories and vehicles are worth next to nothing.

    7. Just Milking my Carrot in the Honda break room. Metallitubby's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 20th, 2001
      Location
      Atlanta, GA
      Posts
      32,511
      Cars
      Honda, Ducati
      03-13-2020 06:30 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I have more trust in a cancer cure than this.
      Cancer won't burn your house down.
      * My contributions are not representative of American Honda

    8. Member Surf Green's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 16th, 1999
      Location
      Silver Spring, GerryMarylandering
      Posts
      14,559
      Cars
      2 Manuel Turbo Wagons... One is incredibly slow.
      03-13-2020 06:55 AM #7
      Different chemistry, but I tested some Solid State (Lithium Ceramic) cells in 2018. They had significantly higher internal impedance than Li+ or LiPo, meaning their Specific Output was lower.
      Even though the literature said they were comparable, Wh/kg and Wh/L were about 30% lower than traditional cells.

      But having no liquid electrolyte, they could be safely charged at temperatures well below freezing.

      While their performance didn't impress, the primary goal was safety. No matter how hard I tried, I could not get them to catch fire.

      It's a step in the right direction, but the proof will be in the performance.
      It's comforting to know there's always someone here to correct my think when it's wrong.
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI, 205k - 2007 Fuji Heavy Industries WRB WRX Wagon, 120k
      Past: 1996 Surf Green GTI VR6 - 1985 Golf 1.8L - No Trim Level Edition

      Grammatical and spelling errors may be intentional

    9. Member Chris_V's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 18th, 2009
      Location
      Pikesville, MD
      Posts
      18,462
      Cars
      '13 Volt, '20 Bolt, '02 Suburban 2500LT
      03-13-2020 09:11 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by BlakeV View Post
      I have more trust in a cancer cure than this.


      yeah, 'cause even when people put their minds to it, nothing ever advances in the tech world.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post
      Stories like this confirm my belief that buying a Tesla or any other BEV would be like buying a Motorola brick phone...technology changes so fast the car makers are struggling to pawn off their old tech fast enough. By the time they gear up to produce the lithium batteries efficiently the factories and vehicles are worth next to nothing.
      You are typing this on a computer, right? You own that computer, yes? Is it the latest and greatest? Did you wait until a faster one was available and bought it, knowing that an even better computer would be released in a short time? I remember buying a Packard Bell, 486 DX2-66 computer. Fast at the time, but quite slow compared to the follow up Pentium computers. But it worked for what I needed it to do at the time, even though faster computers were on the horizon.

      Same thing with EVs. You buy what you need when you need it. If it works for you at the time you buy it, it doesn't matter if there's a better one coming along.
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

    10. Member QUIRKiT's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 19th, 2006
      Location
      Dallas, TX
      Posts
      1,799
      Cars
      Olga-vagon & Harriet
      03-13-2020 10:43 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      Different chemistry, but I tested some Solid State (Lithium Ceramic) cells in 2018. They had significantly higher internal impedance than Li+ or LiPo, meaning their Specific Output was lower.
      Even though the literature said they were comparable, Wh/kg and Wh/L were about 30% lower than traditional cells.

      But having no liquid electrolyte, they could be safely charged at temperatures well below freezing.

      While their performance didn't impress, the primary goal was safety. No matter how hard I tried, I could not get them to catch fire.

      It's a step in the right direction, but the proof will be in the performance.
      Man, that job sounds so cool. "Hey Bob! We need to test the safety of these battery packs -- see if you can light them on fire!"
      Quote Originally Posted by Capt.Dreadz View Post
      This place is going to hell on a Thule roof rack.

    11. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 5th, 2004
      Location
      Southern Indiana
      Posts
      43,017
      Cars
      '66 Beetle (X2) '08 Fit
      03-13-2020 12:49 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      [LEFT][COLOR=#222222]Same thing with EVs. You buy what you need when you need it. If it works for you at the time you buy it, it doesn't matter if there's a better one coming along.
      Which is why I could get away with so many older ones. I drive maybe 50-60 miles in one day, and on light days (no errands/picking up kids) it's only 29. I don't even care if they have 300 miles worth of range, other than battery longevity.


      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      Man, that job sounds so cool. "Hey Bob! We need to test the safety of these battery packs -- see if you can light them on fire!"
      That would be teenager me's dream job. Okay, it'd be most teenage boy's dream jobs.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    12. Member jddaigle's Avatar
      Join Date
      May 30th, 2003
      Location
      Denver, CO
      Posts
      7,133
      Cars
      2008 Passat Wagon VR6 4motion, 2013 FIAT 500 Sport
      03-13-2020 05:53 PM #11
      Maybe I missed it in the article but do they charge any more quickly than batteries with liquid electrolytes?
      - Jeff
      B6 Passat 3.6 & 4motion Resource Thread
      Now: 2008 VW Passat 3.6 4motion Wagon, 2013 Fiat 500 Sport
      Then: 1987 Volvo 745GLE, 1989 Volvo 745GL, 1994 Volvo 940T, 1995 Infiniti G20, 2000 VW Passat 1.8T, 2001 VW Jetta Wolfsburg Ed (x2), 2004 VW Golf TDI, 2006 Jetta TDI

    13. Member Surf Green's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 16th, 1999
      Location
      Silver Spring, GerryMarylandering
      Posts
      14,559
      Cars
      2 Manuel Turbo Wagons... One is incredibly slow.
      03-13-2020 07:15 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by QUIRKiT View Post
      Man, that job sounds so cool. "Hey Bob! We need to test the safety of these battery packs -- see if you can light them on fire!"
      It was a stressful job. Initially in 2004-2008, the goal was to get packs with extremely energy dense (225Wh/kg cells) to pass S9310. The cells were finicky, and you'd figure out their limits and what makes them burn. Then then work with the cell vendor to improve the design, or develop battery management strategies to avoid it. The running joke among industry colleagues was, "When was the last time the fire department showed up at your facility?" After ASDS burned up in Hawaii, no captain wanted a Li+ cell anywhere near their sub, so all the government funding dried up and I had to find other things to do. Looking back, it was a relief to get away from it.

      Recently, I was dragged back in to evaluate new technologies that may ease the air shipping restrictions because they're used in so much equipment now. Initially I saw the "Solid State" moniker as a gimmick, but after testing it was clear that the Lithium Ceramic was a huge step forward in safety. Unfortunately, regulations still consider them the same. That may change in the future, but something without the Lithium scarlet letter might have a better chance.
      It's comforting to know there's always someone here to correct my think when it's wrong.
      2002 Golf Wagon TDI, 205k - 2007 Fuji Heavy Industries WRB WRX Wagon, 120k
      Past: 1996 Surf Green GTI VR6 - 1985 Golf 1.8L - No Trim Level Edition

      Grammatical and spelling errors may be intentional

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •