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    1. Member
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      02-25-2020 02:18 PM #1
      In another thread, someone asked me why I haven't upgraded to a newer Cayman, given that the new ones are demonstrably "better" cars than the 987. Well, that is an arguable statement to start with, but the reality is that it is still a fantastic car. And under the heading of "I'd rather drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow", the Cayman can still hold it's own with much newer machinery for almost any application, certainly at the track. Now granted, my car is modified, but taking a 13-year old car to the track and passing by new cars with far more HP and magazine-cred is still a ton of fun. Case in point, these two videos from last week at Sonoma Raceway. In the first few laps, the underdog Cayman S passes by a GT3RS, a GT3, a Ferrari 430 Challenge car, a stripped-down 69 Camaro Racer, and eventually a Z06 and finally that pesky GT4 with the big wing and Hoosiers. It's always satisfying when other drivers come into the pits and walk over to check out the car ("hmmmm, street tires, eh? And I thought for sure you'd have PDK in this thing"). First video is full session, second video is one lap chasing the GT4 for my best time of that session. And one more bonus video of another session on my crappy iphone track app. Chasing down and passing by a GT2RS.

      So, why is it still great? Terrific balance, excellent feedback, strong braking (with upgraded pads), and wonderful sounds! It let's you know when something isn't going right and allows you to correct (that happens late in the session on turn 2).





      Last edited by Dave_Car_Guy; 02-25-2020 at 02:40 PM.

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    3. Member sicklyscott's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 02:45 PM #2
      Since you brought it up, may I ask your opinion on the inherent flaws of the m97 motor? Wasn't there cylinder scoring and IMSB issues in them? I know, I know, dead horse but, you seem to have good experiences with the car and have track time to boot.

      For a while I was looking for a 987.2 as I really like the packaging of the 987 cars but was hoping for the "more reliable" motor.
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    4. Moderator aar0n.'s Avatar
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      02-25-2020 02:59 PM #3
      That Tubi exhaust sounds absolutely incredible! +1 for the 987.1 being a great car, I can't stop smiling anytime I drive mine
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    5. Member vwpiloto's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 03:26 PM #4
      Seems like it's also due to you being pretty good at this high performance driving thing.

      Also, barring unreliability or general poor build quality, I'm of the opinion that "once a great car, always a great car." Just because faster and better ones come along, doesn't take away from a specific car still being as thrilling and fun as it was in its heyday.

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      02-25-2020 03:42 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by sicklyscott View Post
      Since you brought it up, may I ask your opinion on the inherent flaws of the m97 motor? Wasn't there cylinder scoring and IMSB issues in them? I know, I know, dead horse but, you seem to have good experiences with the car and have track time to boot.

      For a while I was looking for a 987.2 as I really like the packaging of the 987 cars but was hoping for the "more reliable" motor.
      Yes, there are flaws. But the likelihood of any particular car having issues under normal use is low. If you add on a deep sump system with some additional oiling modifications (Motorsport AOS, etc), the cars are very durable. Particularly for street use. Everyone talks about oil starvation under high G loads, but the bigger issue, according to my engine builder, is running the engine at continued high rpm. The oiling system isn’t built for it. Vision motorsports adds in some oiling channels to the crankshaft, etc to bring more oil to the crank bearings.

      My car has been rebuilt and strengthened for track use. For peace of mind, I like the 987.2 option for most people. But a 987.1 with some oiling modifications and an IMS upgrade works fabulous. Mods costing $3-$4k for the 987.1 are sometimes cheaper than buying the 987.2 at a premium. Depends on the car! Many others here have had great experiences even without mods.

    7. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 04:21 PM #6
      trackday hero bro
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    8. Member sicklyscott's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 04:27 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Car_Guy View Post
      Yes, there are flaws. But the likelihood of any particular car having issues under normal use is low. If you add on a deep sump system with some additional oiling modifications (Motorsport AOS, etc), the cars are very durable. Particularly for street use. Everyone talks about oil starvation under high G loads, but the bigger issue, according to my engine builder, is running the engine at continued high rpm. The oiling system isn’t built for it. Vision motorsports adds in some oiling channels to the crankshaft, etc to bring more oil to the crank bearings.

      My car has been rebuilt and strengthened for track use. For peace of mind, I like the 987.2 option for most people. But a 987.1 with some oiling modifications and an IMS upgrade works fabulous. Mods costing $3-$4k for the 987.1 are sometimes cheaper than buying the 987.2 at a premium. Depends on the car! Many others here have had great experiences even without mods.
      Correct me if I'm wrong but the IMSB replacement is an engine out, split case exercise, correct? Certainly labor alone is more than 3-4k knowing porsche mechanics.

      I'll have to look into the others you mentioned. I might get into one after all!
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      02-25-2020 04:28 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      trackday hero bro
      Don’t worry, the actual competition is coming soon. I’m warming up for the NASA season. But thanks for your support!

    10. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 04:31 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Car_Guy View Post
      Don’t worry, the actual competition is coming soon. I’m warming up for the NASA season. But thanks for your support!
      totally!

      spec miata lap record is a 1:54.3, so your quicker than a miata!

      you might think im being sarcastic, but its a benchmark that a lot of track day heros can't beat.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    11. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      02-25-2020 04:35 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by sicklyscott View Post
      Correct me if I'm wrong but the IMSB replacement is an engine out, split case exercise, correct? Certainly labor alone is more than 3-4k knowing porsche mechanics.
      IIRC the bearing design for M97 engines (997.1, 987.1) doesn't require engine-out. It's a simpler replacement process than the M96s.

      Dave, thanks for the vids! Looking forward to watching in-depth later.

      Not sure what the current 'ultimate value Porsche' is right now but 987.1s around $20k seem like great options. 981.1s are starting to dip under $30k too... first year Boxsters though, not Caymans. 997.1s under $30k too.
      Last edited by Mike!; 02-25-2020 at 04:38 PM.

    12. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 04:36 PM #11
      Man those GT drivers

    13. Moderator aar0n.'s Avatar
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      02-25-2020 04:53 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      IIRC the bearing design for M97 engines (997.1, 987.1) doesn't require engine-out. It's a simpler replacement process than the M96s.
      Only the case for some early 997.1s (pre-March 2005 build date) that have the old bearing design. The new, larger bearing requires splitting the case if you choose to do it but the failure rates are much lower for the updated larger bearing. All 987.1 Caymans should have the larger bearing.

      From Rennlist https://rennlist.com/forums/997-foru...stion-ims.html


      If you pull the trans and have the larger bearing, remove the outer grease seal from the bearing and put it back together. If you have the smaller bearing, replace it with the IMS solution (the likelihood of failure on a smaller bearing is too high) - The Solution is an oil-fed bearing used on the air cooled Mezger engines you're more familiar with that doesn't have any rollers or ***** to come apart - just rides on a film of oil.

      If you don't want to pull the transmission, look at the engine # and if it's a higher number than M96/05 69507476 odds are you have the larger bearing, but again, on an '05, no guarantee without visual inspection.
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    14. Member
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      02-25-2020 05:12 PM #13
      I wanted to get a base 987.1 Cayman if I had a garage here, they're awesome cars with minor mods. The base cars in particular seem to suffer less from the cylinder scoring issues, and they make plenty of power - especially with typical intake/headers/tune.

    15. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 05:14 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      I wanted to get a base 987.1 Cayman if I had a garage here, they're awesome cars with minor mods. The base cars in particular seem to suffer less from the cylinder scoring issues, and they make plenty of power - especially with typical intake/headers/tune.
      if spec boxster was a thing here id run one in a heartbeat. they seem tough, reliable, quick enough, and they dont really require blueprinted pro motors like we do. body work would likely be more though, man, gotta love miatas.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    16. Member Vettes, Volvos and VWs's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 05:41 PM #15
      I had just read EVO car of the year for 2019 where they crowned the 718 GT4. That being said most of the writers were not convinced it did anything significantly better than the 2015 GT4 that had also won car of the year. Now I want a 987 GT4
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    17. Moderator aar0n.'s Avatar
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      02-25-2020 05:44 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Vettes, Volvos and VWs View Post
      I had just read EVO car of the year for 2019 where they crowned the 718 GT4. That being said most of the writers were not convinced it did anything significantly better than the 2015 GT4 that had also won car of the year. Now I want a 981 GT4
      Fixed for ya! The closest thing to a 987 GT4 is the Cayman R
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    18. Member Vettes, Volvos and VWs's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 05:46 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by aar0n. View Post
      Fixed for ya! The closest thing to a 987 GT4 is the Cayman R
      Ah fack.... was trying to reason through that. Lol thanks
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    19. Member
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      02-25-2020 06:08 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      if spec boxster was a thing here id run one in a heartbeat. they seem tough, reliable, quick enough, and they dont really require blueprinted pro motors like we do. body work would likely be more though, man, gotta love miatas.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      totally!

      spec miata lap record is a 1:54.3, so you're quicker than a miata!

      you might think im being sarcastic, but its a benchmark that a lot of track day heros can't beat.
      Yeah, thanks. I wasn't aware of the Spec Miata record at Sonoma. That's cooking! Most Spec Miatas run 1:56 to 1:58 at Sonoma, in my experience. For example, here is a link to the NASA Spec Miata race last March at Sonoma. Typical best laps tend to be about 1:56. In June, they run more like 1:58 to 1:59 when it's hot.

      NASA scoring Timing Results Sonoma Raceway Spec Miata, Spec E30.

      That same day, I was running maybe 1:53 - 1:54 in my first NASA TT event with my Shelby. Meanwhile, my friend Tony Brakohiapa (professional driver, Senior Instructor for the Sonoma Race School, Formual Drift driver, Pike's peak, etc.) was doing 1:47 in his highly modified GT350R. I'd say his 6 seconds better than me that day was 1/3 car prep and 2/3 skill. So I figured I had 4 seconds of improvement. With him in the car instructing egging me on, I got my best time of 1:50.04 later in 2019 (video below), on a day that Tony drove my car to a best time 1:49.3. So I have gotten pretty dang close to him. He has since bested his time to 1:45 in his car so I figure I still have 2-3 seconds to get better, both in the Cayman and in the Shelby. So 1:51 is my target in the Cayman and to break 1:50 in that car, I think I'd need a seat, harness, wing, and splitter.

      NASA Time Trial results Sonoma Raceway

      For comparison, Racers in the Spec E46 and the Spec 911 classes that same day were typically between 1:52.5 and 1:55.

      And in case you think SCCA is any different than NASA, here is a Sonoma Spec Miata race where most cars run in the 2:00 range. Fastest time (hotter days) are around 1:57.

      SCCA Timing Scoring Sonoma Raceway

      My point is that the Cayman is a terrific car, not that I'm a good driver. I think I do OK, but that is mainly a function of tons of track time on 3 specific tracks. But the primary point of the story is that the Cayman 987, when driven properly, is a great track toy and with proper mods, can actually be a competitive amateur racer. Better than buying too much car that you're unwilling to unleash at the track!
      Last edited by Dave_Car_Guy; 02-25-2020 at 06:12 PM.

    20. Member
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      02-25-2020 06:19 PM #19
      Again, for comparison. My best time at Sonoma in the GT350R is 1:50.04. Shooting some day for 1:47. But that means the Cayman is only 3 seconds slower on the same track with the same driver.

      http://youtu.be/qGpFCoNN444

    21. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      02-25-2020 08:23 PM #20
      I've only briefly driven your 987, but I really liked it. Lot more involving than my friends 981 GTS.

      I really gotta go out and join you one of these days. I was told I can grab the demo Evora GT from work, which is great, as I can go thrash someone elses tires.
      Driving While Awesome Podcast. Give it a listen. Assetto Corsa Discord Link. Join us for some sim racing fun.
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    22. Member
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      02-25-2020 11:09 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      I was told I can grab the demo Evora GT from work, which is great, as I can go thrash someone elses tires.
      Some might say that the BEST track car... is someone else's.

      Pick a track day with HOD, Trackmasters, or NASA. I'll go!

    23. 02-26-2020 12:12 AM #22
      Sweet! Didn't realize you had track vids up. Gonna add these to my pre-track day study list

    24. Member kiznarsh's Avatar
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      02-26-2020 12:49 AM #23
      Oh whatever Dave, yours is a fancy-pants Cayman S. Anyone can do that....pssshhh.

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      02-26-2020 02:40 AM #24
      cool videos, thanks. I enjoyed watching them.

    26. Member Senior Member's Avatar
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      02-26-2020 06:08 AM #25
      Great capture of elevation changes, most in-car vids don't do elevation change justice. Thanks for posting

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