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    1. Member 88c900t's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 10:36 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by Stevo12 View Post
      What peeves me is that enthusiasts tend to be regressive in terms of the forward march of technology.

      Do you guys really want to go back to the days of piss-poor mileage that the traditional 4-speed autos offered back in the day?

      Case in point, I drive an ‘08 Outback and my in-laws have a 2010 Outback. Both have the same EJ253 powerhouse. But while mine is the sleeker, lighter body style it gets 23 MPG combined - right in the middle of its 20/26 rating. For a smallish car with a 4-cylinder engine with arguably not a lot of power, that’s pathetic. The gearing of the 4-speed further exacerbates the issue.
      Comparing a modern CVT against a 4 speed slushbox is comparing apples to llamas-blame subaru for not going to a 5/6 speed in the early or mid 2000s, like they should have.

      Also, your outback is a midsizer with a full-time AWD system, so 23 with an ancient transmission (any 4AT, which is essentially a 3 with an overdrive is going to have massive gaps) is not bad. My Volvo S40 got 23.5 in 50/50 mixed, and that had a 6M and was a proper compact (ford C1 platform)!

      We complain about CVTs because most modern traditional automatics are quite good, especially compared to 15 plus years ago. If you want to compare a 4AT to a CVT vehicle, use something that was around when everything had a 4AT, like this


      (The Justy was one of the first with a CVT. And the last with a carburetor, funnily enough)
      Last edited by 88c900t; 02-11-2020 at 10:38 AM.
      I gave up dailing old and rare cars and became a normie.
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      Gear Patrol, which has as much cred as Paw Patrol
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      88c900t wins again, you really ****ing crush it at listing a ton of cheap options
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      You'll always get a pass due to your history of owning classy and sophisticated automobiles

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    3. Member Stevo12's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 10:50 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      This is the biggest ding against the CVT. When the trans went out in my sister's Outback (partially due to an improper service), the quote for replacement was around $6k. For a car worth about $8k. That's TERRIBLE! If they are going to have poor durability, at least make them reasonably priced to fix. $1500-2,000 would suck, but it wouldn't total the car.
      Most transmission jobs are R&R with factory remans or junkyard used parts, whether it’s a CVT or geared transmission. It’s much less economically viable to rebuild a transmission unless it’s a legacy Ford/GM/Mopar design that a boomer can do with his eyes closed. And even then, a junkyard part is going to be much less than a rebuild.

      Of that $6k, what was the parts/labor spread, and what’s the labor rate? You think manufacturers take into account the highly regional labor rates when taking into account the repair costs? Say cost of a reman CVT is $4000 (for S&G’s that’s the cost of a Toyota 8-speed). At the $150/hr labor rate my Subaru dealer charges, that’s only 13 hours to R&R a transmission. Doable (maybe) but that’s tying up a high-priced tech (not an oil change jockey) and a bay for a day or two, missing out on higher margin jobs that come thru the shop.

      Also the old car costs $X to repair when it’s only worth $Y is BS and applies equally to manual transmission vehicles. My dads old ‘86 Saab 900 manual was done at 8 years old and he sold it for $500 because a rebuild was more than what the car was worth. And that was on something that is supposed to be (according to this thread) more durable than a CVT. Yes, I know how fragile C900 transmissions are/were.

      It’s easy to get sucked into the above, but what’s the cost of replacing the tool that you would use that car for? In 1994 my dad spent $30,000 to replace the car that brought him to/from work when a $2,000 rebuild would have gotten him through. But it could have been that he just wanted a new car too. Which is done, but it’s a BS excuse to use the above as financial justification. If the 4EAT in my Outback were to go, I’d have to replace it because there’s no room in the budget to buy a substantially newer car and there’s nothing I could buy that would be as mechanically maintained for the same value as the scrap or repair cost. Car ownership just isn’t a zero-sum game.

    4. Member adrew's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 11:10 AM #103
      I confess to initially being slightly nervous about the CVT in our Corolla after 100k+ miles.

      But since there are 50 million of them on the road, low-mileage used ones are only $500-600 (including shipping) which convinced me not to buy the extended warranty.
      https://www.ebay.com/itm/14K-Mile-CO...7/312806292041

      Yeah, I would say that the front camera is definitely unavailable
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    5. Member Egz's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 12:20 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by focusgroup1 View Post
      If you head over to the Outbackforums.org site you will find that many people do not like the artificially programmed "shifts" that Subaru added to the CVTs after people complained about the units without such a thing, the primary reason they did this is because people who bought the cars felt like the cars were stuck in gear no matter what you did when you accelerated, but of course you are essentially there is only one gear in these cars. Haha.
      It fooled me for 2 days after I got my Hybrid, because I was used to hearing the engine go up through the rev range as you accelerate, so I thought I wasn't accelerating, so I ended up pushing the gas pedal hard until it "down shifted" into a higher RPM. But it just took 2 days of relearning for this car. It is a strange feeling if you aren't used to the engine not changing speed.

    6. Member 2.0_Mazda's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 12:51 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Stevo12 View Post
      Don’t you guys get tired of yelling at clouds?
      Not really, I like yelling at all sorts of things.

      Having driven manual for 10years, I'm surprised how much I enjoy my auto. It gets remarkably good mileage on highway use (37 to 41mpg) and it shifts quickly and smoothly. I don't see the point of CVTs minus the cost savings aspect. I also don't see the point of 8 speed transmissions in compact cars (i.e. Jetta). The 8 and 10 speeds I've driven seem to gear hunt and your pedal movements constantly gets disrupted by an unexpected downshift. Maybe the examples I've driven aren't the best but I feel like manufactures follow the "more is better" model that most consumers and reviewers seek.





      Sent from a telephone while driving

    7. Member
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      02-11-2020 01:40 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Stevo12 View Post
      Don’t you guys get tired of yelling at clouds?
      For many it seems being a car enthusiast = crying about any kind of deviation from an era they probably didn't have a car in, and complaining about the non-existence of cars they couldn't afford anyway. Cars are many "enthusiasts'" emotional punching bag.

      I've found in life it's better to focus on what you can control and take joy in the way things are, rather than thrash and whine about the way you want things to be. No amount of internet screaming is going to bring the manual back. We have to get beyond the anger/denial stages of grief.

    8. Member Senior Member's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 04:30 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      How Long Do CVT Transmissions Last? Facts and Fallacies! @carfromjapan
      https://carfromjapan.com/article/car...missions-last/
      Good read, thanks

    9. Member Disgruntled Ziemniak's Avatar
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      02-11-2020 08:08 PM #108
      I haven't seen much talk regarding the CVT in brand new Corolla's.
      Its got a proper tooth-driven first gear and everything, and once it switches to CVT mode, its apparently pretty rock solid.
      Your favorite Ziemniak, hold the gravy.

    10. 02-12-2020 03:31 AM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0_Mazda View Post
      Not really, I like yelling at all sorts of things.

      Having driven manual for 10years, I'm surprised how much I enjoy my auto. It gets remarkably good mileage on highway use (37 to 41mpg) and it shifts quickly and smoothly. I don't see the point of CVTs minus the cost savings aspect. I also don't see the point of 8 speed transmissions in compact cars (i.e. Jetta). The 8 and 10 speeds I've driven seem to gear hunt and your pedal movements constantly gets disrupted by an unexpected downshift. Maybe the examples I've driven aren't the best but I feel like manufactures follow the "more is better" model that most consumers and reviewers seek.





      Sent from a telephone while driving

      Agreed about the excessive number of speed gears in modern traditional gear auto boxes, it's really as if they are adding gears for the sake of it, even if you get an extra .5 mpg as a customer it isn't worth it and it adds needless complication and expense 6 speed auto boxes are just fine for any mid size or small cars made even today. Simplification is key. Oh remember the old
      Honda ads "We Make It Simple!" I miss those days when good common sense and basic logic ruled in the engineering field.

    11. 02-12-2020 05:36 AM #110



      ...that's a lie, I'm not nearly outdoorsy enough. I'll rent one at best, for the experience, though.

    12. Member
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      02-12-2020 09:20 AM #111
      Probably not based on the limited experience I have with them. We test drove a Rogue before we bought the 5 years ago, and neither of us really liked the way it felt. I also know too many automotive techs that have told me to stay away from Nissans with CVTs on top of that. Would I buy from another brand? Maybe, but the car would have to tick off every other box and be overall amazing. I think my issue is there are too many good cars that aren't CVT for me to feel like I need to shoehorn myself into one at this moment.

    13. Member Senior Member's Avatar
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      02-12-2020 05:52 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by N2OInferno View Post
      I think my issue is there are too many good cars that aren't CVT for me to feel like I need to shoehorn myself into one at this moment.
      Correct, but if you want an economy commuter, most of them are CVTs now.

    14. Member
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      02-12-2020 06:24 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      Snowmobiles
      This. My wife even has her own to match.
      X

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      02-12-2020 10:19 PM #114
      Two CVT's on our driveway.

      Granted they are both planetary gearsets, not chain or rubber band CVT's.

      I have no regrets and not looking back.

      My next car probably won't even have a transmission.

    16. Member Senior Member's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 11:25 AM #115
      A guy at work just bought a new Nissan Rogue and was raving about how much nicer it is over his old Civic. I asked him how he liked the "CVT" transmission, he was "It has automatic transmission"
      Basically, he didn't know what a CVT was and didn't even care, all he cared about that it drove "nice"
      I suspect that the average driver is no different.

    17. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 12:04 PM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Senior Member View Post
      A guy at work just bought a new Nissan Rogue and was raving about how much nicer it is over his old Civic. I asked him how he liked the "CVT" transmission, he was "It has automatic transmission"
      Basically, he didn't know what a CVT was and didn't even care, all he cared about that it drove "nice"
      I suspect that the average driver is no different.
      Yup, I’ve had the exact experience, repeatedly. Outside of car forums, mostly no one knows or cares—it is an “automatic.”

    18. Member adrew's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 12:13 PM #117
      My wife isn't much of a car person but when we got a Sentra rental several years ago (like 2011 or 2012) she asked "is this car broken or something?" after we'd spent a few miles on 285 in Atlanta. It had really poor logic and just zinged up to 6500 RPM with any kind of merging or acceleration at higher speeds. The new ones are a lot better but for awhile they were not pleasant at all.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    19. Member MGQ's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 12:35 PM #118
      1. I rented one of those sentras too and I think it also mimics shift points? So it has the double whammy of feeling like a sloppy traditional auto.

      2. I prefer my CVT transmission for driving to the ATM machine.
      This is only temporary, unless it works. - Red Green

    20. Member HI SPEED's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 01:06 PM #119
      I had to drive close to 1000 miles in a week with a 2016ish Nissan Altima.

      The experience was so bad that I will never own a CVT.


      Especially not one paired with a anemic engine.

    21. Member
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      02-16-2020 02:08 PM #120
      This is like...
      Do you want to eat sh!t that taste like chocolate?
      or
      Do you want to eat chocolate that taste like sh!t?
      “I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack

    22. Member pontiac's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 02:22 PM #121
      Nothing worse than a CVT paired with an underpowered engine but I don't mind one in something torquey. My mom had a Maxima and it was fine to drive..until the CVT exploded..nope actually I wouldn't buy a car with a CVT.

    23. Member dr_spock's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 03:58 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by Senior Member View Post
      A guy at work just bought a new Nissan Rogue and was raving about how much nicer it is over his old Civic. I asked him how he liked the "CVT" transmission, he was "It has automatic transmission"
      Basically, he didn't know what a CVT was and didn't even care, all he cared about that it drove "nice"
      I suspect that the average driver is no different.
      Same here with a guy at work. He's perfectly happy with his Sentra CVT. It gets him to work and gets him home. Another guy hates his Altima. YMMY.

      Get what works you and hope for the best.

    24. 02-16-2020 05:26 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by Disgruntled Ziemniak View Post
      I haven't seen much talk regarding the CVT in brand new Corolla's.
      Its got a proper tooth-driven first gear and everything, and once it switches to CVT mode, its apparently pretty rock solid.
      I've had two of them in rental cars. It is a perfectly fine appliance. In a car like that, being an appliance is its mission in life, and it works. They are stingy with fuel, and they're responsive enough when you stamp on the accelerator. It's comfortable because it can keep revs low on the highway for quiet, efficient cruising, and it avoids shift-shock or gear-hunting on hills. For your normal average appliance vehicle driven by your normal average non-enthusiast driver, as long as it's like this, and doesn't explode prematurely (Nissan ... and they're far from alone), they're fine.

      For the enthusiast driver, it actually isn't terrible. At least on the second one that I had (which I put some mileage on - the first one only was a quick day trip and it was winter), it has a manual shift mode with paddle shifters on the steering wheel, and it works fine. Toyota gives you 10 fake manually-selected gear ratios ... if anything, probably two too many. The paddle shift levers themselves are a smidge clunky but they work.

      As long as they hold together in the long run ... that one isn't bad. I don't think long term durability of this particular transmission (with the "launch gear") is proven yet.

    25. Member BeaArthur's Avatar
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      02-16-2020 06:10 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      For the enthusiast driver, it actually isn't terrible. At least on the second one that I had (which I put some mileage on - the first one only was a quick day trip and it was winter), it has a manual shift mode with paddle shifters on the steering wheel, and it works fine. Toyota gives you 10 fake manually-selected gear ratios ... if anything, probably two too many. The paddle shift levers themselves are a smidge clunky but they work.

      As long as they hold together in the long run ... that one isn't bad. I don't think long term durability of this particular transmission (with the "launch gear") is proven yet.
      Some newer Kia's (Forte, Soul) have an iVT, which I understand is a CVT with a proper first gear. There are examples out there of them failing quickly. Hard to say yet whether it's an isolated thing or not.

    26. 02-16-2020 07:25 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Senior Member View Post
      A guy at work just bought a new Nissan Rogue and was raving about how much nicer it is over his old Civic. I asked him how he liked the "CVT" transmission, he was "It has automatic transmission"
      Basically, he didn't know what a CVT was and didn't even care, all he cared about that it drove "nice"
      I suspect that the average driver is no different.
      Of course and when it's not working well I'm sure those folks think their "automatic transmission" is broken. Still a CVT that isn't working right or failing, no matter what the customer thinks.

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