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    1. Member
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      02-07-2020 12:28 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      OTA updates FTW Pretty sure we'll see and hear more stories like this in future and from other manufacturers if they all follow suit
      Yeah this is scary for sure. What's to keep them from detuning the engine to comply with more strict emissions laws a la Dieselgate. Or they decide that their warranty costs are too high so they nerf something for that? GM already had to recall a recall on their brake system "fix". I don't think the manufacturer should be able to change anything OTA without a detailed explanation of the changes and the customers acceptance of said changes with the option to opt out if there is any kind of negative effect to the performance of the systems.

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    3. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 12:30 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Even the Tesla fanboys are saying this is sh!tty, so you know it's bad

      https://electrek.co/2020/02/07/tesla...r-sold-dealer/
      i'm sure someone will eventually defend their actions

    4. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 12:31 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by JitteryJoe View Post
      Yeah this is scary for sure. What's to keep them from detuning the engine to comply with more strict emissions laws a la Dieselgate. Or they decide that their warranty costs are too high so they nerf something for that? GM already had to recall a recall on their brake system "fix". I don't think the manufacturer should be able to change anything OTA without a detailed explanation of the changes and the customers acceptance of said changes with the option to opt out if there is any kind of negative effect to the performance of the systems.
      Tesla has already been accused of decreasing range with OTA updates to preserve battery. I can totally see it happening.

      Hang on to those analog cars

    5. Member E CODE's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 12:34 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      The way I read it is that the car was originally sold with the EA and FSD features. Then the car was lemoned. Tesla seems to have then sold the car at auction to a dealer on Nov. 15 but left the original Monroney sticker in the car. So the auction buyer (the dealer) could be under the impression that they were getting the features as shown on the sticker.

      On Nov. 18 during a remote audit Tesla pulled the features from the car. Note that Tesla didn't own the car on Nov. 18. Had they pulled the features on Nov.14 and removed the Monroney sticker from the car, then I would see no issue. But that's not what happened. Finally, the dealer sold the car to a retail buyer, who likely thought they were getting EA and FSD due to the Monroney sticker in the car.

      So I would say Tesla is at fault for basically being sloppy with their sales and owes the features to the car's owner. They should only be able to remove features when they are in ownership of the car, not once the car is in someone else's ownership. Otherwise it would be like sending a mechanic over to your house and swapping your alloy wheels for steel wheels.
      This.

      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Dealer that bought the car can arbitrate with the auction over the car being misrepresented. Dealer will win. Customer will give the car back, and the auction will go after Tesla.

      Unless Tesla realizes that this is really stupid and just reactivates it.
      Also This.
      VAGKRAFT | Red BBS RS for sale | Mk6 Part Out

    6. Just Going with the FLO. Strange Mud's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 12:43 PM #30
      This just in: Fire trucks around the world rejoice!
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX
      On a side note long term EMF exposure in electric cars causes AIDS.

    7. Member
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      02-07-2020 12:58 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by JitteryJoe View Post
      Yeah this is scary for sure. What's to keep them from detuning the engine to comply with more strict emissions laws a la Dieselgate. Or they decide that their warranty costs are too high so they nerf something for that? GM already had to recall a recall on their brake system "fix". I don't think the manufacturer should be able to change anything OTA without a detailed explanation of the changes and the customers acceptance of said changes with the option to opt out if there is any kind of negative effect to the performance of the systems.
      The most scary part of it to me is that this was on purpose, this time, but what about next time? It involves computers and data networks... and we all know viruses exist, trojan horses, man in the middle attacks, DDOS etc etc.. Its not so much the part where this was clearly a wrong action on Tesla part, but moreso that a cars functionality can be changed so drastically by OTA update. If this happened as an accident or oops while the car was in operation.. Of course we know you're supposed to remain attentive while using autonomous modes but folks driving Tesla cars are often not. Now Tesla is coming with semi trucks.. so a worst case scenario result could be disastrous.

    8. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 04:25 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by Fined View Post
      The most scary part of it to me is that this was on purpose, this time, but what about next time? It involves computers and data networks... and we all know viruses exist, trojan horses, man in the middle attacks, DDOS etc etc.. Its not so much the part where this was clearly a wrong action on Tesla part, but moreso that a cars functionality can be changed so drastically by OTA update. If this happened as an accident or oops while the car was in operation.. Of course we know you're supposed to remain attentive while using autonomous modes but folks driving Tesla cars are often not. Now Tesla is coming with semi trucks.. so a worst case scenario result could be disastrous.
      What's even more wild is that the owner tried to play "dumb" and ask what would happen if he wanted to buy used Tesla, but have a featured removed:

      As an experiment, Alec reached out to a Tesla Used Vehicle Sales Advisor to try and see if he could ask for Autopilot and FSD to be removed from a used vehicle.

      Alec suggested he wanted a particular car, but wanted to save money by having FSD deleted. The Sales Advisor told him that

      “...if it’s added and it’s a used car they just simply will not remove it.”
      That goes directly against Alec’s experience, where Tesla did remove FSD from a used car.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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    9. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 04:47 PM #33
      Well, just a second there professor. They fixed the *glitch* so it'll just work itself out naturally.
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

    10. Member
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      02-07-2020 05:08 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      No. The feature stays with the car forever once paid for. They are saying that the particular car did NOT have it paid for (e.g. by the original owner), that the feature was present in error, and therefore they were correcting the error.

      A better comparison example would be if you bought a car that was capable of satellite radio but did not pay for a subscription, and the dealer had activated it with a 'demo' code so you were able to use satellite radio without having paid for it yourself. Then, SiriusXM finds out and goes "hey, even though you've been listening to the sportsball channel for years, it was never actually paid for and you aren't entitled to continue having it for free, so we're deactivating it."

      In this case, if the dealer that sold the used Tesla did so in good faith, and the buyer bought it in good faith, then while Tesla may be technically in the right to remove the feature it would really be best for them to not do so and to leave it alone for goodwill - they should have caught the mistake earlier when the original owner still owned it.
      Your example about Sirius is quite apt for the situation. The problem is your summation perfectly describes money laundering. If the car was erroneously or nefariously equipped with that feature by owner #1, that fact isn't scrubbed because owner #2 believed it was clean and then sold it to Owner #3, who purchased it thinking it was clean.
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    11. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 05:15 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      Well, just a second there professor. They fixed the *glitch* so it'll just work itself out naturally.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

      Quote Originally Posted by The Igneous Faction
      Have you ever popped the hood on a powerstroke E350?
      Quote Originally Posted by WhistlerYOW
      No, I got good grades in school

    12. 02-07-2020 05:37 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by Diamond Dave View Post
      Your example about Sirius is quite apt for the situation. The problem is your summation perfectly describes money laundering. If the car was erroneously or nefariously equipped with that feature by owner #1, that fact isn't scrubbed because owner #2 believed it was clean and then sold it to Owner #3, who purchased it thinking it was clean.
      The difference in this case is that the Monroney sticker that officially lists what equipment the car originally came with, shows it as being present and part of the price tag for that car when it was originally built.

      If it was erroneously included with the vehicle and included on the Monroney sticker but the original owner hadn't paid for it, then the error is on Tesla.

    13. How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 05:39 PM #37
      Tesla drivers, amirite?
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      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      maybe its just me, but i wouldnt put anything in the circle of "unrealistic" when it comes to sex.

    14. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 05:48 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Even the Tesla fanboys are saying this is sh!tty, so you know it's bad

      https://electrek.co/2020/02/07/tesla...r-sold-dealer/
      Yeah, if they aren't propping this up Tesla had better rethink this, and quickly!

      Also, this:

      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    15. Member 2000JettaGLXVR6's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 07:56 PM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      Well, just a second there professor. They fixed the *glitch* so it'll just work itself out naturally.

    16. Member 2000JettaGLXVR6's Avatar
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      02-07-2020 08:09 PM #40
      Stupid of Tesla to not just cover it. Software is a high margin business and it would cost them nothing.

      Reminds me of a story. Back in 2004 I had a new Volvo S60 2.5T (AKA the light turbo, previously 2.4T). There was another model a step up, the Volvo S50 T5. Well what did 19 year old 2000JettaGLXVR6 do? He rebadged the car, removing the "2." from the badge, and repositioning the "T" before the "5" to make "T5" -- for poser status. They are both 2.5 liters.

      I ended up trading the car in on a new 2004 Acura TL 6MT and didn't think anything of it at the time, the dealer has the VIN, the original monroney and the owners manual -- and had written the trade down as 2.5 liter on the worksheet (probably based on VIN).

      About 2 weeks pass, I'm enjoying my new car and I get a call from the Acura dealer that there's a problem with my trade and they gave me too much money based on it being a "T5", not a "2.5T" - at this point they gave me an ultimatum, I bring a check in for $2700 or I can return the car and get my Volvo back. So I'm like okay, I'll be there in 15 minutes with your car and I'll take my Volvo back.

      I arrived at the dealership, they were no longer interested in taking a used Acura back, I had called their bluff. I'm like here's $500 cash, take it or leave it. They took it.

    17. 02-07-2020 08:12 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by Silly_me View Post
      Every day I find myself happy to have an analog car
      Same here. It's also a black eye for the entire electric car business because everyone associates the halo of EV with Tesla.
      I don't mind at all there since are so many drawbacks and issues with EVs and will be for a long time coming.

    18. Member
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      02-08-2020 08:36 AM #42
      People buying Tesla's just need to come to grips with the facts that the salespeople are equivalent to the ones in a T Mobile store and the after sale support is on par with Comcast. If you want to find someone to have an F to give, you're going to have to put a lot of hours into it.
      Expose your cracks and love will fill them.

    19. Member DrewSXR's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 11:01 PM #43
      Alec sneakily got his AutoPilot back:

      https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesl...-used-model-s/

      On the upside, media scrutiny over this story appears to have triggered those features returning to Alec's Model S, no charge.

    20. 02-13-2020 11:04 PM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by DrewSXR View Post
      Alec sneakily got his AutoPilot back:

      https://www.motortrend.com/news/tesl...-used-model-s/
      Tesla knew they'd be sued if they didn't put the features that were paid for back into the car, and it would be bad publicity for the company.

    21. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 09:08 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by focusgroup1 View Post
      Tesla knew they'd be sued if they didn't put the features that were paid for back into the car, and it would be bad publicity for the company.
      This. To let him keep it had literally NO downside, but as you say, to take it away would have been very bad from a PR and legal standpoint. If it went viral it could’ve done some serious damage to their reputation, possibly even amongst their rabid fan base.

      All they needed to do was to ask what the upside would be to pulling that feature. When that column had nothing in it the decision should’ve been done. It had already gone too far, but at least they can put it to bed now.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    22. Geriatric Member @McMike's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 10:20 AM #46
      I can see things like satellite radio, On Star, or data plans not transferring since they are subscriptions based, but this was BS. Like Spockcat's analogy with coming and stealing your wheels. You buy them once, and they stay.

      Counterpoint

      If the Monroney says my car came with the XXX Touring package that included the fancy 20" wheels, and I swapped them out for base wheels before trading the car in, is the next owner entitled to the fancy wheels I sold on CL?
      Last edited by @McMike; 02-14-2020 at 10:52 AM.

    23. Member LuckyDogg's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 10:37 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by focusgroup1 View Post
      Tesla knew they'd be sued if they didn't put the features that were paid for back into the car, and it would be bad publicity for the company.
      What about all the people who also had features removed as part of this "audit" but didn't think to complain about it online, or seemingly aren't aware? Hopefully the fix was applied in as widespread a manner as the original problem.


      The ONLY acceptable reasoning I could see for this was that vehicle was originally lemon law'd because of problems with the Autopilot hardware in it, so while in Tesla's ownership they simply remove the software modules to "fix" the problem and enable it to be resold; however, that would necessitate a new Mulroney IMHO, and should only be done while in Tesla's ownership.

    24. Member AHTOXA's Avatar
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      02-15-2020 10:42 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by @McMike View Post
      I can see things like satellite radio, On Star, or data plans not transferring since they are subscriptions based, but this was BS. Like Spockcat's analogy with coming and stealing your wheels. You buy them once, and they stay.

      Counterpoint

      If the Monroney says my car came with the XXX Touring package that included the fancy 20" wheels, and I swapped them out for base wheels before trading the car in, is the next owner entitled to the fancy wheels I sold on CL?
      No, because the manufacturer didn’t find your car parked at home while you were sleeping and swap the wheels.

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