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    1. 01-20-2020 12:31 PM #151
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      I have the Subaru parts diagrams for this transmission. All these supposedly "non-serviceable" parts are available for purchase from them.
      Just out of curiosity (and perhaps relevance to this thread) ... How do they sell the belt assembly? Is it sold as an assembly with all the blocks and bands assembled - all that's needed to stop it flying apart are a couple of zip ties but if you ever remove those before you're s'posed to, good luck!? What's the retail price tag on that?

      What about the pulleys? Should be one side that's fixed to the relevant shaft (input or output) and the other side that's splined and probably designed to be the "piston" in a hydraulic cylinder?

      I suspect that even where parts are available, the issue is that the cost of the relevant training (separate cost for each and every model of transmission out there in the field) and special tools (???) doesn't offset the likely low demand except maybe for a VERY small number of specialist shops for certain transmissions that explode frequently - and those specialist shops become the "go-to" for everyone else who just removes and re-installs the complete assembly.

      The other thing is that even if the parts are available, if the transmission shrapnelizes itself because the belt came undone and sent all those little steel blocks flying everywhere inside, that probably damaged so many other parts that the cost of the parts and labour makes it not a viable exercise ... except for perhaps one factory-authorised specialist shop who is the "go-to" for everyone else and who gets a special deal on those parts.

      It is indeed a bolted-together (and circlipped-together) assembly of a bunch of bits and pieces that can be taken apart and put back together, but if the typical cost of parts and labour doesn't justify the expense, then it's junk (or a core for a specialist shop who gets special deals)

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    3. Member Pnuu's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 01:21 PM #152
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Just out of curiosity (and perhaps relevance to this thread) ... How do they sell the belt assembly? Is it sold as an assembly with all the blocks and bands assembled - all that's needed to stop it flying apart are a couple of zip ties but if you ever remove those before you're s'posed to, good luck!? What's the retail price tag on that?

      What about the pulleys? Should be one side that's fixed to the relevant shaft (input or output) and the other side that's splined and probably designed to be the "piston" in a hydraulic cylinder?

      I suspect that even where parts are available, the issue is that the cost of the relevant training (separate cost for each and every model of transmission out there in the field) and special tools (???) doesn't offset the likely low demand except maybe for a VERY small number of specialist shops for certain transmissions that explode frequently - and those specialist shops become the "go-to" for everyone else who just removes and re-installs the complete assembly.

      The other thing is that even if the parts are available, if the transmission shrapnelizes itself because the belt came undone and sent all those little steel blocks flying everywhere inside, that probably damaged so many other parts that the cost of the parts and labour makes it not a viable exercise ... except for perhaps one factory-authorised specialist shop who is the "go-to" for everyone else and who gets a special deal on those parts.

      It is indeed a bolted-together (and circlipped-together) assembly of a bunch of bits and pieces that can be taken apart and put back together, but if the typical cost of parts and labour doesn't justify the expense, then it's junk (or a core for a specialist shop who gets special deals)
      30 seconds of Googling later...

      Link to the part:

      https://www.subarupartsdeal.com/part...y_set,01,32462

      Diagram:



      The chain itself:



      This is how it appears to be packaged:


    4. 01-20-2020 01:26 PM #153
      Interesting. That one is actually a chain (operates in tension) as opposed to the van Doorne push-block design that others use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwRUfFEc5k

    5. 01-20-2020 01:57 PM #154
      I read somewhere that chain belts in Subaru CVTs are supplied by German company Luk.

    6. Member Pnuu's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 02:10 PM #155
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Interesting. That one is actually a chain (operates in tension) as opposed to the van Doorne push-block design that others use: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiwRUfFEc5k
      Interesting, it appears so.

      I'm no CVT expert, but the push-block style that Jatco uses seems to have a much higher failure rate than the traditional tension-belt style that's used elsewhere. Snowmobiles/UTVs/ATVs have been running rubber-belt CVTs for decades with minimal issues, though those systems are not nearly refined enough for a fuel efficient car.

    7. Feels Like the First Time DeeJoker's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 02:24 PM #156
      Quote Originally Posted by brian81 View Post
      +1

      The Subaru dealership I worked at always had CVTs in the overnight parts delivery; engines about twice a week. This wasn't a mega dealer either, they only delivered 1100-1200 cars a year (not like some of the New England stores that sell 3000+ a year).

      I was told by all of the techs that when the cores went back to Subaru they only reused the cases because when they go, all of the reciprocating parts become junk. 2 master techs I worked with said that they were never offered a "how to rebuild a CVT" course because at the dealer level, they're as much a throw-away part as an oil filter is.

      Crazy indeed. (But I don't know how to drive a car with only two pedals, anyway, so what do I know?)
      We had the Lesbaru's first transmission replaced at around 55-60K miles. Under warranty, thankfully.

      Service manager is a close personal friend and client of mine and at the time (MY 2013 Crosstrek) in late 2015/early 2016 it was among the first few he'd seen. But, each that failed had similar commutes: DC Beltway traffic daily. They just didn't like stop-and-go. No rebuild, just a swapped remanufactured unit from Subaru with the core being sent back to them for diagnosis and rebuild.

      A week of downtime and it got back to us. A week or two later, that one was back to the dealer for replacement. Same deal, core was sent back to Subaru and a second reman unit was installed.

      Since then he has seen literally hundreds of them get swapped. But he also notes that 90% of the time, the Subaru remanufactured units are far more reliable than the OEM ones. Ours has about 80K on it with fortunately no issues.
      The above post may contain opinions, coarse language, offensive terms, spelling mistakes, and/or improper grammar. You have been warned.

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      01-20-2020 02:56 PM #157
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Can you name one transmission that truly has no procedure for replacing the fluid? Honest question -- I've never heard of one.
      When Honda brought out their 5AT in late 2001 for MY2002, they managed to screw THAT one up as well--and the fix (recall) was, for units that don't show TOO much bluing from excess heat, to route a new fluid line in via the transmission fill port, to provide cooling to that area their design engineers couldn't/didn't understand needed cooling to begin with.

      When they did that, they took away the fill port. Permanently. And they acknowledged that.


      Recall Number
      04V176000
      Recall Date
      04/15/2004
      Component
      POWER TRAIN:AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION
      Summary

      ON SOME MINI VANS, SPORT UTILITY AND PASSENGER VEHICLES, CERTAIN OPERATING CONDITIONS CAN RESULT IN HEAT BUILD-UP BETWEEN THE COUNTERSHAFT AND SECONDARY SHAFT SECOND GEARS IN THE AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION, EVENTUALLY LEADING TO GEAR TOOTH CHIPPING OR GEAR BREAKAGE.
      Consequence

      GEAR FAILURE COULD RESULT IN TRANSMISSION LOCKUP, WHICH COULD RESULT IN A CRASH.
      What Owners Should Do

      ON VEHICLES WITH 15,000 MILES OR LESS, THE DEALER WILL UPDATE THE TRANSMISSION WITH A SIMPLE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE TO INCREASE LUBRICATION TO THE SECOND GEAR. ON VEHICLES WITH MORE THAN 15,000 MILES, THE DEALER WILL INSPECT THE TRANSMISSION TO IDENTIFY GEARS THAT HAVE ALREADY EXPERIENCED DISCOLORATION DUE TO OVERHEATING. IF DISCOLORATION EXISTS, THE TRANSMISSION WILL BE REPLACED IF DISCOLORATION IS NOT PRESENT, THE DEALER WILL PERFORM THE REVISION TO THE OIL COOLER RETURN LINE. THE RECALL BEGAN ON APRIL 21, 2004, FOR PILOT, ODYSSEY, AND MDX OWNERS. OWNERS OF THE ACCORD VEHICLES WILL START RECEIVING LETTERS ON JUNE 28, 2004, AND ON JUNE 29, 2004

    9. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 06:14 PM #158
      Quote Originally Posted by Pnuu View Post
      30 seconds of Googling later...
      I'm shocked that you were able to find photos of this mythical part that's available only to dealers who know the magic word Seriously though, thanks for posting some actual information.

      Quote Originally Posted by elmo3
      When they did that, they took away the fill port. Permanently. And they acknowledged that.
      That's an interesting case, but I was skeptical that they would actually permanently seal the fill port (what are you supposed to do if there's a leak?), so I looked it up. The entire repair procedure is online, but the important part is this:

      26. When topping off or refilling ATF on vehicles that have an A/T Oil Jet Kit, do this:

      - Remove the oil jet hose. Avoid kinking or pulling on the oil jet hose.
      - Remove the oil jet.
      - Add the ATF through the ATF filler plug.
      - Replace the oil jet O-ring (P/N 91301-P7W-003, H/C 6276539). Use clean ATF to lubricate the O-ring.
      - Install the oil jet. Torque the harness bracket bolt to 27 N.m (20 lb-ft).
      - Slide the oil jet hose onto the oil jet tube up to the 34 mm mark, and then install the clamp 7 mm from the end of the hose.
      Whole shebang is here, if you love reading service information: https://www.2carpros.com/questions/h...ds-replacement

      So, no, they didn't permanently seal the transmission, they just made a fill plug that doubles as an oil squirter.

      -Andrew L
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    10. Member Pnuu's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 06:24 PM #159
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      I'm shocked that you were able to find photos of this mythical part that's available only to dealers who know the magic word Seriously though, thanks for posting some actual information.
      I may not be good at many things, but I happen to have an odd knack for finding random things on Google pretty quickly. Especially car parts.

      Also, the GenuinePartsGiant brands have pretty darn good websites for the average Joe to find part numbers which you can then plug into Google and find more information/pics/sellers.

      So I just went to the site, drilled down from Subaru -> 2012 -> Outback -> Transmission, and found the part and diagram. Then plugged that back into Google for the pics.

      EDIT: Also, as I've found out in the past for some other obscure car parts, just because I can find a part number/listing/price/pics doesn't mean it's actually in stock anywhere and available to purchase. It just means that the part and associated data exists, and we're SOL if we actually need one...
      Last edited by Pnuu; 01-20-2020 at 06:30 PM.

    11. Banned EverthingIsTerrible's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 06:27 PM #160
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      I'm shocked that you were able to find photos of this mythical part that's available only to dealers who know the magic word Seriously though, thanks for posting some actual information.
      Hey man, if you think its just that easy why dont you open the only CVT trans shop in town and corner the market? I mean you seem to have it all figured out so why not make some money

    12. Member rimtrim's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 06:57 PM #161
      Quote Originally Posted by Pnuu View Post
      I may not be good at many things, but I happen to have an odd knack for finding random things on Google pretty quickly. Especially car parts.
      I know exactly what you mean...I research parts every day for my business, as well as for personal projects. Just happy that I don't have to do all the work around here. As for parts being listed but not available...usually for late-model stuff like this, it's not an issue, unless something is backordered or whatever. I do run into that with older parts, where they haven't marked them as "obsolete" yet, but when you try to buy them they turn out to be unavailable.

      Quote Originally Posted by EverthingIsTerrible
      Hey man, if you think its just that easy why dont you open the only CVT trans shop in town and corner the market? I mean you seem to have it all figured out so why not make some money
      While I do think I would be a fairly good trans guy, I'm sure I could find a number of good shops around here that are already doing this work. Youtube is full of videos showing pros rebuilding every type of trans you can think of. The channel I posted is just a guy at a shop on Long Island (who happens to be enough of a nerd about this stuff to make videos for us), not some one-of-a-kind superhuman. That's been my point all along here. This is a trade like any other...there are some people who are mediocre because that works well enough for them, and others who are geeks who go the extra mile to stay current on the new stuff, and may be able to fix what others can't. While the rest of us are sitting here babbling about what can and can't be fixed, they're already out there doing it and making money.

      -Andrew L
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    13. 01-20-2020 08:56 PM #162
      Quote Originally Posted by Yuppie Scum View Post
      Well thank god EVs are going to eliminate the transmission altogether.
      Really?

      If it did it will bring many other shortcomings and problems, we've already seen them.

    14. Member r_fostoria's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 09:10 PM #163
      Quote Originally Posted by focusgroup1 View Post
      Really?
      Yes.

      If it did it will bring many other shortcomings and problems, we've already seen them.

    15. Member MGQ's Avatar
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      01-20-2020 10:55 PM #164
      Quote Originally Posted by rimtrim View Post
      Can you name one transmission that truly has no procedure for replacing the fluid? Honest question -- I've never heard of one. As far as I've been able to determine, "sealed transmission" is a marketing term that really has no bearing on how the transmission is made. Basically it means they took the dipstick tube out and plugged the hole.

      When CVTs first became popular, I actually briefly believed this stuff about them being non-serviceable. Being someone who likes to service things, I took a closer look and found that it was mostly not true. There were parts-availability issues early on, but that seems to have been resolved for all but the most obscure units.

      -Andrew L
      Obviously anything is serviceable if you have a will to do so, that's besides the point. You can drill out rivets and make your own brake pads like they do in Cuba if you really want to. I don't think most people count that as serviceable. If a transmission wears and it wrecks the case, I'm sure someone out there could fill gouges from spun bearings and re-machine it. Jay Leno can probably make an entire Duesenberg from scratch in his garage, and put it on youtube, that doesn't mean its a reasonable expectation really either. I think plenty of CVTs are rebuildable, but I sure wouldn't take "driven in" as my litmus that surely it will be fine with a seal kit ala 200r4s.
      This is only temporary, unless it works. - Red Green

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