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    1. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 09:45 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Taking the Chapman approach, which is amusing to me since your BRZ weighs less than my Lotus. Seems like I’m stuck with the porkers.

      I did have a total blast driving Hushy’s BRZ while chasing him in the Lotus. Having a target to follow and using the car made such a difference to me; driving them alone and not really hammering one left me kinda...meh. But jumping in and grabbing gears and going was fun.

      I still think the chassis could use another 100hp, but I’m also used to cars that run mid 12’s so I’m a hair spoiled.
      I think the BRZ and the Chapman approach work great in a performance driving situation. It's counter-intuitive, but I care less about big power on the track than on the road. You are also usually at the top of the power band at the track. On the street, it's super annoying to have wring the car's neck out to keep up with the minivan next to you at a stop light. So I suppose it depends on your intended use.

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    3. Member
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      01-14-2020 09:57 AM #77
      Kind of track dependent. The NASCAR track near my house actually favors cars that handle (especially with the new chicane), but the road course further away has a back straight that felt agonizingly long on my motorcycle. I really enjoyed the 86 around town... whipping it through roundabouts and back roads was fun, but that's a very small percentage of my driving.

      I guess my point is this car is amazing if you can do the bulk of your driving on roads/tracks that complement its strengths. For most people I'd wager those opportunities are few and far between. But I don't think Toyobaru should kill what makes this car special to broaden its appeal. Literally all it needs is a couple hundred ccs more displacement and maybe some better NVH control.

    4. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 10:32 AM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Fined View Post
      Hmm.. Maybe its already been discussed.


      This is aimed right at Mazda since they upped the power on the Miata, right?
      No. It is aimed at people with money.

      Seriously though, I don't think the Miata's power bump had much influence on this. If anything, it has been the consistent bickering on Internet forums about the lack of torque, mostly by armchair typists that wouldn't buy such a car new anyway. Those that did vote with their wallet are obviously fine with it.

      IMO, the 86 stands in a class of one. The Miata is a 2-door convertible with pure focus. 86 is trying to be the best all-round sports car that is actually small and not just kind of small. Also cheap. The only reason we compare it to the Miata is because that is what it is closest to in most every regard.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    5. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      #81 SM 1.6
      01-14-2020 11:05 AM #79
      put me down as another vote for "twins don't need anything" they are great cars the way they are. my only real gripe with them is they have a Subaru motor, and its gonna take me a solid 10+ years to trust Subaru motors, they are all, ALL of them (besides the 2.2), junk.

      thats why id still go ND every time. the brilliance of the miata has always been a simple, mass produced engine that is cheap to run, and reliable.

      bespoke things, esp engines, are expensive, unreliable, hard to find parts for, etc etc.

      thats why an understessed 2.4 NA engine would actually be a great motor for the twins. 220-230hp, more torque, even revving to like 6500-7000 would be perfect. a turbo would just be a non-starter for me.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    6. Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 11:23 AM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      IMO, the 86 stands in a class of one. The Miata is a 2-door convertible with pure focus. 86 is trying to be the best all-round sports car that is actually small and not just kind of small. Also cheap. The only reason we compare it to the Miata is because that is what it is closest to in most every regard.
      Yes. To all of this.

      Quote Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
      Did you mean to write "can't handle"?
      I should have been more clear. A turbo I4 with a laggy tune on a too-big turbo that runs a blowoff valve instead of recirculation. You get NA power that runs out of breath, then finally you are moving enough air to spool the sucker, and you get some power. But that dead zone where there is no spool sucks horribly.

      It's one of the reasons I've never worried about replacing the K03 on the nevArlose - because it doesn't lag and I can still get punted around 4500.

      But back to the twins, I guess I just appreciate the purity of them. Absolutely a bit more power would be nice, and the torque dip should go away. But overall, my comment is please don't **** them up. They are so wonderful the way they are.

      To the track comments, hell to the yes. The BRZ is a totally different car at Waterford (basically a glorified gokart track) and an GingerMan (a big, open track with decently long straights that you can actually pull your turns out on). At Waterford, it's all about third gear. At GingerMan, you have to shift up a lot and you can use all of the power. Feeling the body at GingerMan is wonderful, at Waterford, it's lost in the shuffle of just trying to get around the track.
      たくさんとうふ、よ Where did all these damn Toyotas come from?
      Compared to a British roadster, all Volkswagens are reliable!
      nevAr Lose - DE Minister of Foreign Affairs and Deputy Bankruptcy Controller - IPROfftopikstan, kuhlBRZ

    7. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 11:28 AM #81
      This is great news if it comes true. Like everything though, the devil will be in the details. Presumably I would take a ~260hp 86 all day over a Supra.

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    8. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 11:53 AM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by ENV² View Post
      They need to turbo it. Many more people will buy the car if they can keep it affordable. The non tuners will appreciate the extra power and the tuners will be able to make these much more fun. It's a win win.

      Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk
      agreed

      wasnt a lot of the gripe about the first one that the engine wasnt super tuneable and there wasnt a hot turbo/sti option?
      this seems like a no brainer

    9. Member
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      01-14-2020 12:02 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      This is great news if it comes true. Like everything though, the devil will be in the details. Presumably I would take a ~260hp 86 all day over a Supra.
      Same, all day. I have a used 2017 BRZ w/ PP and would upgrade in a second if it comes with the FA24DIT still under an MSRP of say ~32K.
      2017 Subaru BRZ w/ PP 6MT (SCCA TT T4)/B7 Audi A4 Quattro 6MT (The winter beater)/1.8L Rotrex Time Attack Miata 5MT/NB1 Chump Car Endurance Racing Miata 6MT

    10. Member chuckster1's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 03:01 PM #84
      I would gladly take 220 HP/180 TQ and a redline at 7500 (minus the torque dip) over anything turbocharged. The BRZ/86 is perfect as an NA sports car.
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      See? You have to relax before you can completely take in all of TCL's magic.

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      01-14-2020 03:20 PM #85
      Turbo all the things!!!
      Most people buying sports cars look at hp/tq numbers and 0-60 times... I think turboing is the correct choice if they want to sell more. NA might be more fun to some people but they want to sell cars

    12. Member
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      01-14-2020 03:36 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by ImHereForTheTaco View Post
      Turbo all the things!!!
      Most people buying sports cars look at hp/tq numbers and 0-60 times... I think turboing is the correct choice if they want to sell more. NA might be more fun to some people but they want to sell cars
      If they really want to sell it then they should lift it 6" and add a hatch and gray plastic cladding, plus AWD and remove the manual transmission.

    13. Member
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      01-14-2020 03:45 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      Because then people will complain if it has only 10 more hp than the old one. And 2 different engine options is tons of extra cost/complexity on the manufacturing end.
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      If they really want to sell it then they should lift it 6" and add a hatch and gray plastic cladding, plus AWD and remove the manual transmission.


    14. 01-14-2020 03:53 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      emotions running high in this thread. Wonder what that's about....
      lolololol

    15. 01-14-2020 03:56 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      Header+tune with a light battery and some AP Racing front brakes are what I want to do on mine. Drop ~50 lbs off the front axle and gain some power and revs (and noise, EL headers for me). Add some super light summer wheels and I'm good to go, my SSR's weigh 13 lbs each.

      No need for a turbo, just add lightness.
      Don't the FA motors already have EL headers? They don't sound like the typical Subaru lub-lub-lub to me.

    16. Geriatric Member ByronLLN's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 07:19 PM #90
      I'm skeptical that scaling this car up will really attract more buyers. I think it will make it more profitable on a per-unit basis, but if people just wanted a heavier coupe with more power, there are plenty out there to choose from.

      And frankly, anybody beating the higher-output NA drum better have a 370Z in the driveway, because Nissan's been building your car for ten years.

    17. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      #81 SM 1.6
      01-14-2020 07:26 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by ByronLLN View Post
      And frankly, anybody beating the higher-output NA drum better have a 370Z in the driveway, because Nissan's been building your car for ten years.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    18. Geriatric Member ByronLLN's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 07:29 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      empty response
      It's an under-appreciated car that got bandwagoned out of relevance by 5.0L Mustangs.

    19. Member cockerpunk's Avatar
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      #81 SM 1.6
      01-14-2020 07:32 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by ByronLLN View Post
      It's an under-appreciated car that got bandwagoned out of relevance by 5.0L Mustangs.
      because its not a good car.

      its 700 pounds heavier than a twin. its a bad c5 corvette.
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Sounds great. Maybe I'm just a fascist and didn't know it.. I don't know if I even care anymore.

    20. Geriatric Member ByronLLN's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 07:52 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      because its not a good car.

      its 700 pounds heavier than a twin. its a bad c5 corvette.
      Are those Japanese pounds? Because the difference is about 450-500 American pounds depending on trim.

      The next-gen twins will either gain effectively no power and like 100-150 pounds in curb weight, or they'll gain a good chunk of both. And probably cost, too.

    21. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 07:52 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by ImHereForTheTaco View Post
      Turbo all the things!!!
      Most people buying sports cars look at hp/tq numbers and 0-60 times... I think turboing is the correct choice if they want to sell more. NA might be more fun to some people but they want to sell cars
      profit is what their other cars are for. no one who buys these things cares about 0-60 times.
      http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-metric/286588.png
      Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy.

    22. Member hushypushy's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 07:57 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by ByronLLN View Post
      And frankly, anybody beating the higher-output NA drum better have a 370Z in the driveway, because Nissan's been building your car for ten years.
      You might think this is the case, but sadly, it is not.

      Interestingly, the 370Z and 86 are the exact same length: 4240mm. Yet, the 370Z weighs 600 pounds more! (~2800 vs ~3400).

      370Z has terrible brakes, terrible steering, and a terrible interior. They are fat pigs that aren't fun to drive, because they weren't designed to be driven hard: after only 5 minutes up my local testing road, I glanced at the oil temp and it was 290

      Sad to say, but I was thoroughly disappointed in that POS Shame, because they look good (on the outside) and on paper (350hp @ 7500 RPM for a Nismo). I wanted to love it, but ended up hating it.

    23. Member
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      01-14-2020 08:43 PM #97
      The suspension can be fixed and the interior is better than the BRZ. 370Z is just TCL's favorite whipping boy

    24. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-15-2020 10:36 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by ByronLLN View Post
      I'm skeptical that scaling this car up will really attract more buyers. I think it will make it more profitable on a per-unit basis, but if people just wanted a heavier coupe with more power, there are plenty out there to choose from.

      And frankly, anybody beating the higher-output NA drum better have a 370Z in the driveway, because Nissan's been building your car for ten years.
      Except the 370Z is 100 years old and pails in comparison to American competition in most performance aspects. Under-appreciated? Sure. No longer relevant? Yes, because it is old and the rest of the car industry has moved on many times over lol.
      Last edited by Elite_Deforce; 01-15-2020 at 10:41 AM.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    25. 01-15-2020 10:44 AM #99
      Well then......

      https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/gt-86/2...s-car-shootout

      Either way, the GT86 remains the car of choice in this class, and by quite some margin overall. Its chassis is still in a league of one when it comes to allowing you to indulge yourself on the public road. It’s sharp but forgiving, clean in its responses but also infinitely adjustable. The Toyota’s steering is also much sweeter and delivers a lot more feel through the rim than the others, and its gearbox is a thing of wonder. You need to use it a lot more often than you do in the Abarth, yes, but that’s all part of the game in the GT86, and it’s a game that takes you to another level on roads like this. Plus it has rear seats and a much bigger boot than the others into the bargain.

      In the end the Toyota wins, and wins easily, as long as you don’t want top-down motoring, while the MX-5 remains as good as it ever was and the Abarth is maybe just a touch disappointing. Others may not agree, but some car is the GT86, always was, always will be.
      With a 4cyl Supra available in some markets, perhaps the 86 really doesn't need much more than a slight power bump (and smoothened out torque dip)

      Different horses for different courses.

    26. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-15-2020 10:52 AM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by 11Tenths View Post
      Well then......

      https://www.evo.co.uk/toyota/gt-86/2...s-car-shootout



      With a 4cyl Supra available in some markets, perhaps the 86 really doesn't need much more than a slight power bump (and smoothened out torque dip)

      Different horses for different courses.
      A slightly more sound-insulated interior and a bit more torque is all the car needs to make it the best all-round sports car on the market, bargain or no bargain. Full stop.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

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