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    1. Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 04:37 PM #51
      I am cautiously optimistic here as I would love to buy KBJr one for graduation. If I was made out of money, of course.
      たくさんとうふ、よ Where did all these damn Toyotas come from?
      Compared to a British roadster, all Volkswagens are reliable!
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    3. 01-13-2020 04:40 PM #52
      Is it 2010 again?

    4. 01-13-2020 04:40 PM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      The 1G Twins don't have the top end of your RX7 (I'd know, I had an FC) or an S2000, and also had a dip in the 5K RPM range that you had to get a tune to fix. The powertrain gripes were justified, and Subaru already produces the 2.4T in mass volume, so it's an ideal choice.


      So, the Subaru platform isn't suited to RWD so they're using the...... Camry/Prius platform? Wut
      I can't believe I'm saying this but the RX8 felt faster and torquier than the BRZ. Didn't think such a thing was possible. I got a header and tune and my BRZ really woke up but still never had that wind-it-out rush of the rotary.

      At least my BRZ felt faster than my 79 RX-7...

      Is there a RWD Lexus powertrain they could drop in? Like the IS250 V6? I'd dig that.
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    5. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 04:43 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by EverthingIsTerrible View Post
      lol no thanks, id rather have the Camry engine
      That would require some reworking if you are trying to keep it longitudinal RWD. If they are going through that trouble, they might as well hot it up a bit, which could be a pretty interesting proposition. Sincerely doubt hat would happen. The FA20 has its flaws, but at least its a well developed tuning platform at this point.

    6. Member
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      01-13-2020 04:43 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by EverthingIsTerrible View Post
      lol no thanks, id rather have the Camry engine
      This. The new Camry 2.5L is an absolute beast. It makes 203 HP (more with the TRD exhaust) and 184 ft lbs on regular 87 octane. It's lighter than the FA20 and is one of the most efficient mass produced ICE's in history. Those cars see almost 40 mpg highway with like 500 extra lbs over the BRZ.
      2017 Subaru BRZ w/ PP 6MT (SCCA TT T4)/B7 Audi A4 Quattro 6MT (The winter beater)/1.8L Rotrex Time Attack Miata 5MT/NB1 Chump Car Endurance Racing Miata 6MT

    7. Geriatric Member ByronLLN's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 04:44 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      Because then people will complain if it has only 10 more hp than the old one. And 2 different engine options is tons of extra cost/complexity on the manufacturing end.
      Yeah, this seems really unlikely unless they can find a way to justify including a second powertrain that is used elsewhere, or potentially going to be used elsewhere. To me, this would mean a hybrid to be shared with Lexus.

      Quote Originally Posted by phatrs View Post
      Such regulations are bull**** coz an SUV is gonna do a lot more damage to a pedestrian yet they’re perfectly legal.
      Forgetting the regs and all of that for a minute, no mainstream automaker is going to put that much engine into a car this insubstantial and try to sell it. Sure, it appeals to the swap-friendly enthusiast crowd, but real car buyers don't want some unrefined, under-braked, sloppy mess of a car.

      Adding power means adding mass in the form of beefier axles, bigger brakes, improved body rigidity, etc. Yeah, in a shadetree application, an LSX adds almost no weight, but in the real world, it's more than a matter of whether a bigger engine physically fits.

    8. Member
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      01-13-2020 04:51 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      Because then people will complain if it has only 10 more hp than the old one. And 2 different engine options is tons of extra cost/complexity on the manufacturing end.
      I personally wouldn't offer the NA version. I'm just saying if there is a demand for it then just leave what's there with a tiny bump and then offer the turbo version out of the WRX. All they would need to do is make small adjustments for clearance I assume. I'm looking at this from a realistic/manufacturing standpoint.

    9. Member DerSpiegel's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 05:02 PM #58
      I would love to see a NA 2.4 in the twins but it's just not going to happen.....unless Subayota figures out where else to put it. Creating a bespoke engine solely for those cars isn't something the accounting division is gonna accept.

      Oh and it's a lot more than just boring out the 2.0 and dropping it in. There would be durability, mileage, NVH, and power goals to achieve. That would mean potential combustion chamber mods, piston mods, counterweighting, etc. etc.

      The twins are getting a 2.4T folks. Accept and enjoy.

    10. Member hushypushy's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 07:23 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by Goingnowherefast View Post
      Devils advocate: The powerband is already insanely un-optimized for a sportcar platform. Note the disgustingly large dip in the middle of the powerband.

      Jeez, you own one and still beat this dead horse?

      If you're driving the car like a normal responsible human being, it has plenty of power and torque. You don't need to go above 4k in normal driving, which is where the nice little low end torque bump is. The engineers did that on purpose--it even says that in the Edmunds article where you got that graph.

      And then if you're driving the car the way it's meant to be driven, why would you go below 4500 RPM? The car has plenty of power from 5000-7500.

      Directly contrary to what you mistakenly believe, the powerband is, in fact, optimized for a sports car

      We like to praise engines with character, engines that "come on cam", engines that rev strongly to redline. The 86 sounds good, makes good low end torque (for a 2.0 4 cylinder), and pulls in the top part of the rev range, making very good power (100hp/L). Yet, people hate it because....they expect it to drive like a Corvette or an STI?

      .
      .
      .

      I love my BRZ and loved the FR-S I had too. I think this car is damn near perfect as it is. I'm worried that the internet pundits will have infected Toyota/Subaru and the next car will be made with a design-by-committee approach that destroys the purity of the car.

    11. 01-13-2020 07:43 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
      You don't need to go above 4k in normal driving, which is where the nice little low end torque bump is.
      According to the very graph you quoted the 'nice little low end torque bump' actually begins at 3200 RPM, bottoms out at 3800 RPM and doesnt achieve the same level or Torque until 4700 RPM.

      So really you have to keep it below 3200 or above above 4700 to stay out of the power dip.

    12. Member hushypushy's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 07:53 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by EverthingIsTerrible View Post
      According to the very graph you quoted the 'nice little low end torque bump' actually begins at 3200 RPM, bottoms out at 3800 RPM and doesnt achieve the same level or Torque until 4700 RPM.

      So really you have to keep it below 3200 or above above 4700 to stay out of the power dip.
      Well, the good news is that I don't drive on a piece of paper (or a computer screen). In reality, you only feel the dip around 4000-4500--which is a range I almost never use. Which is why I don't care

      Here's a fake dyno chart that Subaru made. It's a representation of the changes for the 17+ model. It has a bit more low-end torque and they moved the low bump higher, so the dip is narrower on the newer cars.


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      01-13-2020 08:37 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
      Jeez, you own one and still beat this dead horse?
      You can't complain about dead horses and then pull the "if you need more power you're a bad person" card. Seems kind of silly to buy a car that revs to damn near 8K but never take it beyond 4K. For the people who do- for example, people who take their freeze breeze twins to the track- that dip is exactly where upshifts land in lower gears. It's a dumb mistake and a ding on an otherwise good car. Moving to the FA24 would fix it without ruining the rest of the car.

    14. I’m not a loser. I’m a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 08:48 PM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      You can't complain about dead horses and then pull the "if you need more power you're a bad person" card. Seems kind of silly to buy a car that revs to damn near 8K but never take it beyond 4K. For the people who do- for example, people who take their freeze breeze twins to the track- that dip is exactly where upshifts land in lower gears. It's a dumb mistake and a ding on an otherwise good car. Moving to the FA24 would fix it without ruining the rest of the car.
      Emotions running high in this thread. Wonder what that's about....
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    15. 01-13-2020 08:51 PM #64
      Hasnt this car torn enough people apart?

    16. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      01-13-2020 09:04 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by EverthingIsTerrible View Post
      Hasnt this car torn enough people apart?
      That’s the problem with only 150 torx. You could dead.

      glad they’re upping it, personally. I don’t mind revvers but I didn’t like the torque/power curve, at least on the ‘13.

    17. Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      01-13-2020 09:11 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
      I love my BRZ and loved the FR-S I had too. I think this car is damn near perfect as it is. I'm worried that the internet pundits will have infected Toyota/Subaru and the next car will be made with a design-by-committee approach that destroys the purity of the car.
      Well, that makes two of us.

      This is in my "money where your mouth is" challenge bucket. If you want sportscars, buy the ones that exist and quit bitching. Those of us who sports our sportscars think they are pretty damn fine. A bit more power is welcome but not necessary. And **** the torque dip crap. Anyone who has ever driven a turbo I4 can handle it with ease. If you can't handle the torque dip, it says more about you as a driver than about the car.
      たくさんとうふ、よ Where did all these damn Toyotas come from?
      Compared to a British roadster, all Volkswagens are reliable!
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    18. 01-13-2020 09:33 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't make the rules man. Plus even without pedestrian regs there are other reasons not to put an LS in a BRZ. Front end crash = that LS is in your lap



      Ben
      Now: ‘19 VW Golf R, ‘15 Polo GTI
      Before: ‘06 RenaultSport Megane 225 Cup, ‘14 VW Polo GTI, ‘12 VW Golf GTI, ‘06 VW Golf GTI, ‘05 VW Golf Sportline, ‘01 Holden Astra SRi, ‘00 Nissan Pulsar SSS, ‘99 Holden Astra CD, ‘98 Nissan Pulsar SLX, ‘91 Nissan Pulsar GL with Q engine swap, ‘80 Subaru Leone

    19. 01-13-2020 09:35 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by ByronLLN View Post
      Yeah, this seems really unlikely unless they can find a way to justify including a second powertrain that is used elsewhere, or potentially going to be used elsewhere. To me, this would mean a hybrid to be shared with Lexus.



      Forgetting the regs and all of that for a minute, no mainstream automaker is going to put that much engine into a car this insubstantial and try to sell it. Sure, it appeals to the swap-friendly enthusiast crowd, but real car buyers don't want some unrefined, under-braked, sloppy mess of a car.

      Adding power means adding mass in the form of beefier axles, bigger brakes, improved body rigidity, etc. Yeah, in a shadetree application, an LSX adds almost no weight, but in the real world, it's more than a matter of whether a bigger engine physically fits.
      Which is probably why, in my opinion, that they won’t put a more powerful motor in the 86 as it will change the car. Look at the MX5 (Miata in the USA?). That’s always sold great without a powerful engine.


      Ben
      Now: ‘19 VW Golf R, ‘15 Polo GTI
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    20. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 01:12 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by bnkrpt311 View Post
      I'm just saying if there is a demand for it then just leave what's there with a tiny bump and then offer the turbo version out of the WRX.
      I would be totally okay with this. Would satisfy both the people like me who don't want a turbo and are okay with the current power and the others that want the extra power.

      Offering two plants would probably be too expensive of a proposition though.
      Quote Originally Posted by DerSpiegel View Post
      The twins are getting a 2.4T folks. Accept and enjoy.
      Sigh. I guess as long as it is reliable, it could be worth.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    21. Member hushypushy's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 02:23 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      And **** the torque dip crap. Anyone who has ever driven a turbo I4 can handle it with ease. If you can't handle the torque dip, it says more about you as a driver than about the car.
      Did you mean to write "can't handle"?

      I was slowing for a red light on an empty expressway earlier this evening. I was in third gear at about 3000 RPM and the light turned green. Normally at this point, I would throw it into 2nd at 5000 RPM, rip it to redline, get a good shift into 3rd with more full throttle, then settle down to cruising speed (it's a 50mph speed limit road in CA so use your imagination).

      But, I suddenly remembered this thread, so I just left it in 3rd and floored it. The result was about as underwhelming as someone who drives a Corvette, GTI, XC90, or Model 3 might expect from a "sports car". Torque dip, then it came on cam(s), and then dammit slow down that was the speed limit oh well.

      To your Turbo I4 point, if you floor a GTI at 3k in 3rd you get a pretty good wallop of torque. Same if you have a big V8 or a super-turbocharger 8 speed or electric motors. And you know what? I think all that is pretty damn cool too

      Ultimately the 86 is a very niche car. I admire that focused approach, especially nowadays where everything has a turbo, everything is a gawdawn SUV, and it seems like the only new coupes are just four-door sedans with swoopy rooflines. I also appreciate this particular car because it's exactly what I want out of a sports car. Do I want more? That's like asking if you wish your spouse was better looking. Yeah, I love my car, but if you're asking me, I'll take an 8000 RPM redline, Recaro seats, better stereo, and a fully adjustable suspension, thank you

      I'm very interested to see what they do with the new version, because if they give it more power they have to give it more grip, and it will likely weigh more. Honestly, I've always thought they should do a 330hp STI version with a turbo, a slightly fancier interior, and an adjustable suspension. Maybe a widebody. Maybe something sort of tangentially related to the GT300 car perhaps, which has an EJ20.





      But sadly, all we got was a wing



      They had a white tS in the showroom when I bought my BRZ. They had it marked up at $5k over, but my sales guy told me he could sell it to me at sticker

    22. Member
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      01-14-2020 02:42 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by hushypushy View Post
      Did you mean to write "can't handle"?

      I was slowing for a red light on an empty expressway earlier this evening. I was in third gear at about 3000 RPM and the light turned green. Normally at this point, I would throw it into 2nd at 5000 RPM, rip it to redline, get a good shift into 3rd with more full throttle, then settle down to cruising speed (it's a 50mph speed limit road in CA so use your imagination).

      But, I suddenly remembered this thread, so I just left it in 3rd and floored it. The result was about as underwhelming as someone who drives a Corvette, GTI, XC90, or Model 3 might expect from a "sports car". Torque dip, then it came on cam(s), and then dammit slow down that was the speed limit oh well.

      To your Turbo I4 point, if you floor a GTI at 3k in 3rd you get a pretty good wallop of torque. Same if you have a big V8 or a super-turbocharger 8 speed or electric motors. And you know what? I think all that is pretty damn cool too

      Ultimately the 86 is a very niche car. I admire that focused approach, especially nowadays where everything has a turbo, everything is a gawdawn SUV, and it seems like the only new coupes are just four-door sedans with swoopy rooflines. I also appreciate this particular car because it's exactly what I want out of a sports car. Do I want more? That's like asking if you wish your spouse was better looking. Yeah, I love my car, but if you're asking me, I'll take an 8000 RPM redline, Recaro seats, better stereo, and a fully adjustable suspension, thank you

      I'm very interested to see what they do with the new version, because if they give it more power they have to give it more grip, and it will likely weigh more. Honestly, I've always thought they should do a 330hp STI version with a turbo, a slightly fancier interior, and an adjustable suspension. Maybe a widebody. Maybe something sort of tangentially related to the GT300 car perhaps, which has an EJ20.





      But sadly, all we got was a wing



      They had a white tS in the showroom when I bought my BRZ. They had it marked up at $5k over, but my sales guy told me he could sell it to me at sticker
      Header+tune with a light battery and some AP Racing front brakes are what I want to do on mine. Drop ~50 lbs off the front axle and gain some power and revs (and noise, EL headers for me). Add some super light summer wheels and I'm good to go, my SSR's weigh 13 lbs each.

      No need for a turbo, just add lightness.

    23. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 02:47 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      No need for a turbo, just add lightness.
      Taking the Chapman approach, which is amusing to me since your BRZ weighs less than my Lotus. Seems like I’m stuck with the porkers.

      I did have a total blast driving Hushy’s BRZ while chasing him in the Lotus. Having a target to follow and using the car made such a difference to me; driving them alone and not really hammering one left me kinda...meh. But jumping in and grabbing gears and going was fun.

      I still think the chassis could use another 100hp, but I’m also used to cars that run mid 12’s so I’m a hair spoiled.
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    24. Member
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      01-14-2020 02:58 AM #73
      I'd love more power too if I had great weather and no cops. As-is I chirp 3rd on my car most of the time though. Good ole cold damp dirty roads.

    25. Member 2.0_Mazda's Avatar
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      01-14-2020 06:48 AM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      no turbo

      more displacment
      I agree!

      God those renders are nice. Hope Toyobaru doesn't ruin this.

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      01-14-2020 06:57 AM #75
      Hmm.. Maybe its already been discussed.


      This is aimed right at Mazda since they upped the power on the Miata, right?

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