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    1. Global Moderator MylesPH1's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 05:07 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      It's not that complicated. There's been a long-standing CARB EO process to allow for expedited emissions compliance in all 50 states. SEMA even has emissions testing resources to help smaller tuner shops obtain an EO. Many OEMs also offer partnerships with tuners so they can access the original ECU flash files. Ford commonly does this through SEMA.

      https://www.semagarage.com/services/emissionslab

      source: I formerly worked for a tuner that complied with federal emissions, both through the EO process and full certification process (same process that OEMs go through).
      Thanks, of course, for your informed opinion. My primary concern is how the tuners that do the right thing, and get exemptions, charge a premium for it (whether warranted or not). And more to the point, how police attempt to enforce it. If my car has aftermarket wheels, will I get pulled over on probable cause, and hit with a ticket demanding a date with my favorite local smog referee?

      Enforcing computer coding seems like a very slippery slope to me.
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    3. 12-01-2019 05:28 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      Thanks, of course, for your informed opinion. My primary concern is how the tuners that do the right thing, and get exemptions, charge a premium for it (whether warranted or not). And more to the point, how police attempt to enforce it. If my car has aftermarket wheels, will I get pulled over on probable cause, and hit with a ticket demanding a date with my favorite local smog referee?

      Enforcing computer coding seems like a very slippery slope to me.
      Thats quite the load of straw you laid out there at the end.

      But, (IMHO as well) this is why in the future you are going to see more and more "Locked" ECUs and software agreements when you purchase a new car. You will no longer own the software that runs your vehicle, you will simply be a user with no right to make changes. Much like most computer operating systems.

    4. Member n0rdicalex.'s Avatar
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      12-01-2019 05:47 PM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      Thats a shame and I hope it doesn't go any further than that. If I want to risk getting caught, let me risk it. /rant

      It's especially a shame for HD diesel truck owners, as deleting these efficiency killing emissions devices often results in a large increase in power, a large increase in MPG and it's also extremely beneficial for maintenance costs and long term reliability/longevity (proven time and time again). Alas, there are always goofballs who take it too far (rolling coal, etc). A properly tuned yet deleted truck will not "roll coal."
      you can spec a 2019 Ram with a Cummins 6.7 that has 1,000 ft-lbs and can tow up to 35,000 lbs with a factory warranty. how much more torque and towing do you need in a pickup truck?
      welcome to the layer cake

    5. Global Moderator MylesPH1's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 06:05 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by rabbit83 View Post
      Thats quite the load of straw you laid out there at the end.

      But, (IMHO as well) this is why in the future you are going to see more and more "Locked" ECUs and software agreements when you purchase a new car. You will no longer own the software that runs your vehicle, you will simply be a user with no right to make changes. Much like most computer operating systems.

      Lol well I’m sure that looks like straw in a lot of ways, I wouldn’t argue that. But having dealt with red tape on emissions compliance very recently was when my car was completely legal, I speak from experience. And I’m not even trying to pin blame on police, because I think we’re getting to the point (like you said) where attempting to enforce compliance leads to simply outlawing the practice completely.
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      12-01-2019 07:20 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by n0rdicalex. View Post
      you can spec a 2019 Ram with a Cummins 6.7 that has 1,000 ft-lbs and can tow up to 35,000 lbs with a factory warranty. how much more torque and towing do you need in a pickup truck?
      Deletes aren't just for more power. Improved reliability and mpg are also a benefit. Also, a deleted diesel doesn't have to be roaling coal everywhere it goes. Anytime I see that I think to myself they need to get a new tuner. There's absolutely no need for it.

    7. Member n0rdicalex.'s Avatar
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      12-01-2019 11:44 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by MXTHOR3 View Post
      Deletes aren't just for more power. Improved reliability and mpg are also a benefit. Also, a deleted diesel doesn't have to be roaling coal everywhere it goes. Anytime I see that I think to myself they need to get a new tuner. There's absolutely no need for it.
      I appreciate that, but EGR and doser reliability have significantly improved since their introduction years ago.

      for what it's worth, I've been testing diesel engines (emissions, performance, and reliability) for nearly a decade.
      welcome to the layer cake

    8. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 12:47 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      Thanks, of course, for your informed opinion. My primary concern is how the tuners that do the right thing, and get exemptions, charge a premium for it (whether warranted or not). And more to the point, how police attempt to enforce it. If my car has aftermarket wheels, will I get pulled over on probable cause, and hit with a ticket demanding a date with my favorite local smog referee?

      Enforcing computer coding seems like a very slippery slope to me.
      Well the EPA is probably going after tuners because that's far easier than trying to catch and enforce emissions regs on individual owners. Unless a diesel owner is rolling coal or has obvious mods affecting emissions, I think it's going to be difficult for police to make a traffic stop.
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 12-02-2019 at 02:43 AM.
      =

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      12-02-2019 01:04 AM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      Lol well I’m sure that looks like straw in a lot of ways, I wouldn’t argue that. But having dealt with red tape on emissions compliance very recently was when my car was completely legal, I speak from experience. And I’m not even trying to pin blame on police, because I think we’re getting to the point (like you said) where attempting to enforce compliance leads to simply outlawing the practice completely.
      Yeah, it's a complex issue. I'm definitely for modding cars, but there's also some really stupid mods out there too, particularly ones that affect other people--like super bright HIDs in reflector housings for example. That doesn't mean a person upgrading shoddy OEM halogens to nicer Sylvania equivalents is doing something wrong, but if some agency were to enforce an OEM-only bulb policy then the HID user is ruining it for others.

    10. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 03:43 AM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by MXTHOR3 View Post
      Deletes aren't just for more power. Improved reliability and mpg are also a benefit. Also, a deleted diesel doesn't have to be roaling coal everywhere it goes. Anytime I see that I think to myself they need to get a new tuner. There's absolutely no need for it.
      If the truck is making significant gains in mpg it is also increasing nox emissions, a LOT. Bosch could make these trucks get 50 mpg but the nox output is astronomical.

    11. 12-02-2019 05:48 AM #35
      It's about time for them to take action, the environment is suffering too much at this point, and we will all feel the repercussions if proper measurements are not taken.

    12. Member newusername's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 06:32 AM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      I hope they all switch to Super Dutys with the 7.3 gas engine. It will still be loud, but at least it won't stink.
      Mine is 100% stock and doesn’t stink one bit?
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    13. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 08:39 AM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by n0rdicalex. View Post
      you can spec a 2019 Ram with a Cummins 6.7 that has 1,000 ft-lbs and can tow up to 35,000 lbs with a factory warranty. how much more torque and towing do you need in a pickup truck?
      People like to go fast. Increasing torque lets you tow in a taller gear and thus lower RPM for any given amount of load, but it doesn't make the truck any faster. The other side of the coin could be a tune that doesn't increase peak torque but extends the boost curve to higher RPM, thus making more horsepower on the same peak torque. That would let you tow the same on flat ground but also accelerate quicker too, say for getting up to speed on an uphill onramp while towing.

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      12-02-2019 08:46 AM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      People like to go fast. Increasing torque lets you tow in a taller gear and thus lower RPM for any given amount of load, but it doesn't make the truck any faster. The other side of the coin could be a tune that doesn't increase peak torque but extends the boost curve to higher RPM, thus making more horsepower on the same peak torque. That would let you tow the same on flat ground but also accelerate quicker too, say for getting up to speed on an uphill onramp while towing.
      I live in needle dick brodozer country and can maybe count the # of times I've seen them towing something on one hand. I have no beef with them as long as they comply with emissions regs to some degree- I think people decatting their street cars is equally stupid; we just don't talk about it as it's harder to spot.

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      12-02-2019 10:37 AM #39
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I live in needle dick brodozer country and can maybe count the # of times I've seen them towing something on one hand. I have no beef with them as long as they comply with emissions regs to some degree- I think people decatting their street cars is equally stupid; we just don't talk about it as it's harder to spot.
      I too disagree with deleting cats, but it's not nearly as bad as diesel deletes. Read some studies on the effects of diesel particulate pollution, it's one of the worst carcinogens around. The particles get in your lungs deep and NEVER leave, they just sit there vibrating away causing cancer.

    16. Member n0rdicalex.'s Avatar
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      12-02-2019 10:46 AM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I live in needle dick brodozer country and can maybe count the # of times I've seen them towing something on one hand.
      that's cos they're ghost trailers, since the tow mirrors are out!
      welcome to the layer cake

    17. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 10:52 AM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by KrisA View Post
      I too disagree with deleting cats, but it's not nearly as bad as diesel deletes. Read some studies on the effects of diesel particulate pollution, it's one of the worst carcinogens around. The particles get in your lungs deep and NEVER leave, they just sit there vibrating away causing cancer.
      In fairness, gasoline will be joining the party soon. Gasoline particulate filters are already mandated in the EU and likely coming to the US soon. In both cases the cause is greatly increased fuel pressures producing ever smaller fuel droplets. For diesel the increase has been extraordinary as a present day diesel engine runs far higher pressures than gasoline direct injection though this also leaves port fuel injection as largely unaffected by all of this with its extremely low fuel pressures at the injector.

      But yeah - ultrafine particulate emissions are especially bad because they can harm you for life.

    18. 12-02-2019 11:07 AM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by NashGTI View Post
      It was only a matter of time, modifying and/or deleting emissions control devices has been illegal for decades. Don't know why anyone just assumed they got a free pass on things because diesel.
      I have no problem with the crackdown as they should have been enforcing this all along. It was like everyone looked the other way because they were diesel. I think fines for tuners producing illegal tunes and impounded trucks and fines for owners that have deleted emissions devices. I think hefty fines will hurt the desktop tuner that is more like compared to a large tuning company to do something illegal. I have no problem with tuners, just make it compliant. Here is what I have seen locally. The guys that actually tow and use diesels for that purpose are not monkeying around and doing tunes. You see them time to time modding, but most of those arent doing it. The worst offenders are the guys that dont tow a thing. The brodozer crowd. These are also the same guys that think it is cool to cover an intersection with black smoke.

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      12-02-2019 11:55 AM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr Roo View Post
      I have no problem with the crackdown as they should have been enforcing this all along. It was like everyone looked the other way because they were diesel.
      They have been enforcing this all along.

      These trucks were basically built with little to no emissions controls until 2007ish?? (blanking on exact year) there was nothing to enforce.

      This is a problem that goes back only a little over a decade and they have been investigating and fining shops/tuners the whole time.

    20. Member simple's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:17 PM #44
      All this does is add fuel to the fire. There is a growing mass of people who believe that the government is broken and not to trust any branch, especially the EPA.

      Not only that, but a huge populace doesn't even give a measly little bit about pollutants.

      Question is, does policing these people actually educate them or do they believe their freedom to do whatever they want (AMERICA!) supersedes their interest in doing what is right for the rest of us?
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    21. Senior Member
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      12-02-2019 01:28 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by simple View Post

      Question is, does policing these people actually educate them or do they believe their freedom to do whatever they want (AMERICA!) supersedes their interest in doing what is right for the rest of us?
      The violations are against shops/tuners not individuals (for the most part). This is stuff sold as "off road use only" by people who very well know that they are not going to be used off road. The fines are very educational.


      Some of these are for people illegally modifying side by sides in the dozens.. not 100-1000s. In that regard it is stopping the manufacture/tuner before something becomes a trend.

    22. Member XM_Rocks's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 02:37 PM #46
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      They have been enforcing this all along.

      These trucks were basically built with little to no emissions controls until 2007ish?? (blanking on exact year) there was nothing to enforce.

      This is a problem that goes back only a little over a decade and they have been investigating and fining shops/tuners the whole time.
      Class 8 was 2008MY, not sure about others.
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    23. 12-02-2019 03:42 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by simple View Post
      All this does is add fuel to the fire. There is a growing mass of people who believe that the government is broken and not to trust any branch, especially the EPA.

      Not only that, but a huge populace doesn't even give a measly little bit about pollutants.

      Question is, does policing these people actually educate them or do they believe their freedom to do whatever they want (AMERICA!) supersedes their interest in doing what is right for the rest of us?
      I think we are giving drivers of these modded trucks far too much credit. I agree, they dont care about pollutants. I also believe that most know what they do to their trucks is wrong, but its more of a who is going to catch and stop me attitude.

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      12-02-2019 04:02 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Mr Roo View Post
      I think we are giving drivers of these modded trucks far too much credit. I agree, they dont care about pollutants. I also believe that most know what they do to their trucks is wrong, but its more of a who is going to catch and stop me attitude.
      I've read comments by dozens if not more people on this site (and others.. and talked to on the phone and talked to at shows.. etc etc) that think removing a cat from a car in florida (common example not only state) is LEGAL simply due to the fact that there are no state emissions inspection.


      I agree that most know it is wrong, but there are many that simply are not aware that you really can't do this and operate on public roads. When you do explain it then their first come back is always like you said.. stop me..

    25. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 04:46 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      I've read comments by dozens if not more people on this site (and others.. and talked to on the phone and talked to at shows.. etc etc) that think removing a cat from a car in florida (common example not only state) is LEGAL simply due to the fact that there are no state emissions inspection.


      I agree that most know it is wrong, but there are many that simply are not aware that you really can't do this and operate on public roads. When you do explain it then their first come back is always like you said.. stop me..
      Most people I bring up emissions with, just laugh. Most people simply do.not.care. at all. It's a tough sell when a new DPF is 4k and a tuning box with added fuel mileage, power, and a shiny new 5" exhaust is significantly less.

    26. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 04:50 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      When you do explain it then their first come back is always like you said.. stop me..
      Hence why the EPA goes after the manufacturers and resellers. It's simply a lost cause to try to go after the individual people in states that don't have a very involved vehicle inspection.

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