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    1. Member
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      11-29-2019 11:06 PM #1
      https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/nati...es-and-engines
      https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2019...se-resolutions

      http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/eng...el-tuning-dead

      EPA and CARB have been prosecuting/fining diesel tuners recently. So much so that all of the US diesel tuners have stopped offering delete tunes and parts for the deletes, it has been an interesting topic to follow on the diesel forums. Some of the US diesel tuners have started making emissions compliant tunes and actually testing them for emissions levels, even putting in labs (smoke meters, horiba, etc).

      Diesels are probably the most visible due to kids rolling coal for years. I would imagine that other aftermarket companies are headed down the same path, thoughts?
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    3. Member fireside's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 11:07 PM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by AndyG86 View Post
      https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/nati...es-and-engines
      https://www.epa.gov/enforcement/2019...se-resolutions

      http://www.trucktrend.com/how-to/eng...el-tuning-dead

      EPA and CARB have been prosecuting/fining diesel tuners recently. So much so that all of the US diesel tuners have stopped offering delete tunes and parts for the deletes, it has been an interesting topic to follow on the diesel forums. Some of the US diesel tuners have started making emissions compliant tunes and actually testing them for emissions levels, even putting in labs (smoke meters, horiba, etc).

      Diesels are probably the most visible due to kids rolling coal for years. I would imagine that other aftermarket companies are headed down the same path, thoughts?
      Thats a shame and I hope it doesn't go any further than that. If I want to risk getting caught, let me risk it. /rant

      It's especially a shame for HD diesel truck owners, as deleting these efficiency killing emissions devices often results in a large increase in power, a large increase in MPG and it's also extremely beneficial for maintenance costs and long term reliability/longevity (proven time and time again). Alas, there are always goofballs who take it too far (rolling coal, etc). A properly tuned yet deleted truck will not "roll coal."

    4. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 12:09 AM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by AndyG86 View Post
      Some of the US diesel tuners have started making emissions compliant tunes and actually testing them for emissions levels, even putting in labs (smoke meters, horiba, etc).

      I would imagine that other aftermarket companies are headed down the same path, thoughts?
      I'm 100% fine with that. Instead of having 27 different illegal tunes available, the big tuners can cooperate and sign something like an intellectual property sharing agreement where they develop a small number of emissions legal tunes and share them among each other. Kinda like how transmissions have gotten so expensive that Ford and GM cooperated for the 10-speed automatic they developed together.

      Hondata's been doing CARB-compliant tunes for Honda/Acura products, for example and they are a relatively small company. If we want tuning to survive for the future, we need to support companies that play by the rules. I'm happy to spend extra to get equipment that's legal.

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      11-30-2019 09:46 AM #4
      Thank god, and I sure hope this crack down extends north of the border as well. Stinking deleted diesel tunes are nasty things that are poisoning everyone around them. If everyone on the road was driving a deleted pickup the pollution would be off the charts, probably like Beijing on a moderate day. Why people think it's ok do do this because they are getting more power and lower consumption is beyond me.

      Shut them down.

    6. Global Moderator MylesPH1's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 02:44 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by AndyG86 View Post
      Diesels are probably the most visible due to kids rolling coal for years. I would imagine that other aftermarket companies are headed down the same path, thoughts?
      It would be a possible end result, for sure. Most street tunes for performance, where it doesn’t involve deleting catalytic converters, would not affect emissions and would mostly be fine. They’re not targeted at this point because they’re not obviously running an illegal tune that intentionally belches black smoke, and the offenders are easy to spot. Checking cars for performance tunes - based somehow on probable cause, that lovely grey area - would be difficult in practice.

      If the companies developing them were required to pass a government compliance test, the cost to purchase a tune would go up, which sucks.
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    7. Member adrew's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 03:24 PM #6
      I hope they all switch to Super Dutys with the 7.3 gas engine. It will still be loud, but at least it won't stink.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    8. Senior Member
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      11-30-2019 03:56 PM #7
      Been going on for a long time, they have shown up and done surprise inspections at tuners who just tune gas vehicles, many of the cases in the EPA link are not diesel related. One is even a fine for a tuner that many here probably have used or would consider.

      This isn't just about diesels.

    9. Member NashGTI's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 05:16 PM #8
      It was only a matter of time, modifying and/or deleting emissions control devices has been illegal for decades. Don't know why anyone just assumed they got a free pass on things because diesel.

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      11-30-2019 05:36 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      Thats a shame and I hope it doesn't go any further than that. If I want to risk getting caught, let me risk it. /rant

      It's especially a shame for HD diesel truck owners, as deleting these efficiency killing emissions devices often results in a large increase in power, a large increase in MPG and it's also extremely beneficial for maintenance costs and long term reliability/longevity (proven time and time again). Alas, there are always goofballs who take it too far (rolling coal, etc). A properly tuned yet deleted truck will not "roll coal."
      If it were possible to make power power, get better MPGs and meet emissions requirements OEMs would do it. Obviously aftermarket tunes don't meet all requirements and it's stupid to expect tuners to put themselves in legal jepoardy to sell you tunes. In a perfect world coal rolling idiots wouldn't exist, but they do and have ruined it for everyone. I'm glad the crack down is coming.

    11. 11-30-2019 05:42 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by NashGTI View Post
      It was only a matter of time, modifying and/or deleting emissions control devices has been illegal for decades. Don't know why anyone just assumed they got a free pass on things because diesel.

      Because most state emission testing (IME) exclude diesels so there were no real repercussions.

      And whoever was on the "power robbing blah blah" kick, you can spec a new F-350 to tow 18,000 pounds.

    12. Member
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      11-30-2019 06:57 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside
      It's especially a shame for HD diesel truck owners, as deleting these efficiency killing emissions devices often results in a large increase in power, a large increase in MPG and it's also extremely beneficial for maintenance costs and long term reliability/longevity (proven time and time again). Alas, there are always goofballs who take it too far (rolling coal, etc). A properly tuned yet deleted truck will not "roll coal."
      Do people buy these trucks intending to mod them? Seems to me like they perform pretty well stock. My Cayenne has been through 3.0TDI cheat and fix, and the changes post-fix are so marginal to the overall performance of the vehicle I can't comprehend why they even did it in the first place.

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      11-30-2019 07:14 PM #12
      All the wannabe redneck kids around here are going to have to sell their rusty Rams and go back to jeeps.
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    14. Member adrew's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 07:36 PM #13
      We have one that lives down the street (about a 10-year-old Ram) - I was just working in the back yard and he got into the boost a little on the street out front. About 30 seconds later I was enveloped in a thick cloud of diesel funk.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    15. Member O_loung1's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 09:04 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by ghost03 View Post
      Do people buy these trucks intending to mod them? Seems to me like they perform pretty well stock.
      know how i know you haven't spent much time down in the south
      all diesel trucks down here get tuned - outside work trucks. if you ain't whistling or rolling, you are DIW.
      even gasser work trucks get modded here with loud pipes.

    16. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 09:19 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by KrisA View Post
      Thank god, and I sure hope this crack down extends north of the border as well. Stinking deleted diesel tunes are nasty things that are poisoning everyone around them. If everyone on the road was driving a deleted pickup the pollution would be off the charts, probably like Beijing on a moderate day. Why people think it's ok do do this because they are getting more power and lower consumption is beyond me.

      Shut them down.
      Agree 100%

      Even people that don't care about extra power or a tune just end up deleting the truck when their dpf is clogged or whatever and it's a far cheaper option to just take it off than to replace it. It is very common. Part of the problem is people buying one tons because they need to tow a 4000 pound boat twice a year and the rest of the time they just take it to the store.

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      11-30-2019 10:42 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by O_loung1 View Post
      know how i know you haven't spent much time down in the south
      all diesel trucks down here get tuned - outside work trucks. if you ain't whistling or rolling, you are DIW.
      even gasser work trucks get modded here with loud pipes.

    18. Member NashGTI's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 10:55 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by O_loung1 View Post
      know how i know you haven't spent much time down in the south
      all diesel trucks down here get tuned - outside work trucks. if you ain't whistling or rolling, you are DIW.
      even gasser work trucks get modded here with loud pipes.
      yeah, this is true

    19. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 11:04 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by MylesPH1 View Post
      If the companies developing them were required to pass a government compliance test, the cost to purchase a tune would go up, which sucks.
      It's not that complicated. There's been a long-standing CARB EO process to allow for expedited emissions compliance in all 50 states. SEMA even has emissions testing resources to help smaller tuner shops obtain an EO. Many OEMs also offer partnerships with tuners so they can access the original ECU flash files. Ford commonly does this through SEMA.

      https://www.semagarage.com/services/emissionslab

      source: I formerly worked for a tuner that complied with federal emissions, both through the EO process and full certification process (same process that OEMs go through).
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 12-01-2019 at 11:56 AM.
      =

    20. I’m not a loser. I’m a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 11:15 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by O_loung1 View Post
      know how i know you haven't spent much time down in the south
      all diesel trucks down here get tuned - outside work trucks. if you ain't whistling or rolling, you are DIW.
      even gasser work trucks get modded here with loud pipes.
      And Salt Lyfe and FLOgrown stickers.
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    21. Member NashGTI's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 11:20 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by patrikman View Post
      And Salt Lyfe
      Every time I see one of those I first read it as Slut Life, given the font used I can only assume that was the idea in the first place.

    22. I’m not a loser. I’m a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 11:39 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by NashGTI View Post
      Every time I see one of those I first read it as Slut Life, given the font used I can only assume that was the idea in the first place.
      Same, except I see it around here on old white lady mobiles. But yeah brodozers are life in Florida.
      this signature kills fascists.

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    23. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 12:19 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      It's not that complicated. There's been a long-standing CARB EO process to allow for expedited emissions compliance in all 50 states. SEMA even has emissions testing resources to help smaller tuner shops obtain an EO. Many OEMs also offer partnerships with tuners so they can access the original ECU flash files. Ford commonly does this through SEMA.

      https://www.semagarage.com/services/emissionslab

      source: I formerly worked for a tuner that complied with federal emissions, both through the EO process and full certification process (same process that OEMs go through).
      This is why the crackdown doesn't bother me at all. The certification process has been around for years and when even relatively small tuners like Hondata had no trouble getting CARB EO#s for their N/A and turbo tunes the same year cars were released, I can't imagine that it would be hard for any other company to do it. Seeing that even SEMA has resources to help with this just makes it all the more inexcusable that companies are doing non-legal tunes.

    24. Member whalemingo's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 01:25 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      If it were possible to make power power, get better MPGs and meet emissions requirements OEMs would do it. Obviously aftermarket tunes don't meet all requirements and it's stupid to expect tuners to put themselves in legal jepoardy to sell you tunes. In a perfect world coal rolling idiots wouldn't exist, but they do and have ruined it for everyone. I'm glad the crack down is coming.
      Wrong. OEM's tune for drivability and leave room to upgrade the drivetrain through software in upcoming model years. Tuners aim to grab that power. Most of the time just tuning with software will not prevent the car from passing emission tests provided the catalytic converter remains in place. It's when you start going above basic tuning that the emission issue arises. And even then, most of the time, they just fail visual inspections and readiness checks.
      All Hail Andy?

    25. Member XM_Rocks's Avatar
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      12-01-2019 02:17 PM #24
      Good.

      I personally think any vehicle that’s deleted a cat/DEF system needs to be impounded and crushed.

      If everyone was doing this we would be back to 70’s era smog.

      I also think lifted vehicles should be fined and not allowed on the road. Mismatched bumper crash height is a real concern.
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    26. 12-01-2019 02:59 PM #25
      And street racers should face a minimum 10 years in pound-you-in-the-ass prison.

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