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    1. Member
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      11-30-2019 10:01 AM #51
      If there is room to park there is room to charge. That said, I think diversification- EVs, hydrogen vehicles, hybrids- are all necessary and helpful on the way to a mostly EV world.

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    3. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 10:16 AM #52
      ** Which brings us to Hydrogen. Hydrogen powered vehicles in masse are a bigger and even further away pipe dream than EVs. Why does Toyota bother with it? Because EVs will remain a very small niche for a very long time, Toyota is looking at an alternative.
      And not a temporary one.

      We are dependent on combustible at so many levels.

      Last week in in North East Canada, the teamsters were on strike and no CN trains were circulating. It provoked a crisis for the farmers because they was no more propane necessary to HEAT their facilities; animals were scheduled to die but it resumed just on time.

      I have a plant with an heat treatment industrial process that runs also on propane. It came in hours of stopping the operations.

      Another ones are relying to natural gas for heating.

      Guess what, all of those systems could use electricity as the local supply is the cheapest in the world (Quebec). If we did that, that would cost multiples times what we have now.

      So yes, Toyota is 100% right, an alternative is needed for many, many reasons, and just electricity is NOT the answer on a larger perspective. We need a synthetic fuel, that will also be used in airplanes.
      Last edited by BlakeV; 11-30-2019 at 01:23 PM.

    4. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 10:16 AM #53
      One less PHEV soon;

      Batteries won: BMW confirms i3 REx range extender on its way to extinction

      The rapid progress of lithium-ion battery-cell energy density and the growth of fast-charging networks have together helped write the epitaph for BMW’s range-extending technology, badged REx on the BMW i3.

      “It has no future,” replied Jan Freimann, BMW’s manager for connected e-mobility and one of the company’s battery experts, in a presentation on battery technology and procurement last week at the LA Auto Show.

      Freimann circled back to tempered the blunt statement to remind us that although the i3 REx, with its little 647-cc 2-cylinder engine serving as a backup generator, is already discontinued in Europe, it may remain for sale for some time in other markets—like the U.S. But he underscored that in terms of being any broad part of the company’s e-mobility strategy, the time for REx has passed.

      “The idea behind the range extender really helps people to get over range anxiety,” he explained, and it helped keep BMW from being reliant on big battery packs. “With a range extender you always had the feeling like okay, I’ve got a backup solution.”

      Things have changed, though. With the build-up of DC fast-charging infrastructure from Ionity in Europe, Electrify America in the U.S., and others, “there’s really no need to be afraid,” Freimann added.

      Originally the 2014 i3 had a 60 Ah battery; now it’s 120 Ah (42.2 kwh rated)—with a cell energy density of 352 watt-hours per liter from the latest Samsung prismatic cells. During that time the battery-only version’s EPA-rated range has gone from 81 miles to 153 miles in the 2019 BMW i3—which exceeds the 150-mile rating of the original 2014 i3 REx.

      Simply put, there’s no longer a need for the REx.

      According to BMW’s internal data, energy density will be doubled on a cell basis again by 2030.

      In the meantime, BMW is planning to continue to offer the REx option for the North American market—right up until, perhaps, it could be made redundant with another battery upgrade due for the i3 around 2021. And with the future of the BMW i3 looking to be evolving toward affordability and mass-market appeal, we wouldn’t discount the option even then.

      The i3 REx will be offered “for the foreseeable future,” underscored BMW of North America product communications chief Tom Plucinsky. “There’s no decision there.”

      BMW still sees gas stations as important. Half of BMW sales globally will come from combustion-engine cars—including hybrids—in 2030. BMW board member for development Klaus Froehlich just over a year ago said the automaker was preparing for 85 percent of its vehicles by sales volume, globally, to still have internal combustion engines in 2030.

      If energy density and batteries keep outperforming targets and expectations, as they have in the past five years, let’s hope the industry can collectively do better than that.

    5. Member MrRoboto's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 11:55 AM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      If there is room to park there is room to charge. That said, I think diversification- EVs, hydrogen vehicles, hybrids- are all necessary and helpful on the way to a mostly EV world.
      We're not talking about parking in suburban malls here. We're talking about shopping malls where only 20 spots out of 1000 are electrified.

      Nevermind the buildings we live in. The parking lots cannot be electrified because of various practical issues. The place I live in has 2000 parking spaces, and no electrical outlets for charging, because it was built before the days when EV's were a thing. And it costs a lot of money to put 'some' in, then you run into issues of how you share those spaces between different EV owners, etc. And they won't let you plug it into a regular outlet because then the building pays for the electricity.

      And many cities in Asia don't have the electrical grids that can support mass electrification, and I'm sure it is the same in many places across the world with densely populated cities. So the numbers will always be limited for EV's. It's just a fact.

    6. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 12:05 PM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Yeah but that is because of all the Bev models they're rolling out (3, 5, 7, x3, ixext) which is of course silly given the climate for these things.

      The i3 was essentially stage 2 of their Bev test with the 1series electric being stage 1.

    7. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 12:30 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Yeah but that is because of all the Bev models they're rolling out (3, 5, 7, x3, ixext) which is of course silly given the climate for these things.

      The i3 was essentially stage 2 of their Bev test with the 1series electric being stage 1.
      Aren't they actually rolling out PHEV versions of the X3, X5 and 330?

    8. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 12:34 PM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Aren't they actually rolling out PHEV versions of the X3, X5 and 330?
      Those are already debuted and coming. I'm talking about what's known to be on the debut horizon.
      I7
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      Last edited by ice4life; 11-30-2019 at 12:36 PM.

    9. Member
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      11-30-2019 01:16 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by MrRoboto View Post
      We're not talking about parking in suburban malls here. We're talking about shopping malls where only 20 spots out of 1000 are electrified.

      Nevermind the buildings we live in. The parking lots cannot be electrified because of various practical issues. The place I live in has 2000 parking spaces, and no electrical outlets for charging, because it was built before the days when EV's were a thing. And it costs a lot of money to put 'some' in, then you run into issues of how you share those spaces between different EV owners, etc. And they won't let you plug it into a regular outlet because then the building pays for the electricity.

      And many cities in Asia don't have the electrical grids that can support mass electrification, and I'm sure it is the same in many places across the world with densely populated cities. So the numbers will always be limited for EV's. It's just a fact.
      There's what's possible and what's practical. I agree that EVs are DOA anywhere electricity is even slightly unreliable. But grids can be reinforced and parking spots can be electrified. For the right price....

    10. Member
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      11-30-2019 01:28 PM #59
      At the risk of being labeled a spammy troll... even Jalopnik is beginning to sour on the practicality of EVs:

      https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-main-...ork-1840110802



      https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-happ...can-1832151810

      I'm on vacation now and we are heading back tomorrow... but I'm already thinking of getting gas tonight to get ahead of the crowds. We can't charge from our AirBnB. This would suck

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      11-30-2019 03:38 PM #60
      Reading what Toyota is doing, I more or less see it like the dvd to hd dvd vs blue ray deal in the mid 00s. No one really knows without a doubt where the market is going to go.

      Full EVs might be great, but we could hit a point where we’re having problems with battery material mining. There’s the obvious infrastructure concerns for some localities and the question of where the electricity is coming from.

      PHEVs are a good step as some have stated with smaller battery sizes, occasional extra power, and for some commuters full the chance of full EV driving for the daily commute.

      Hydrogen (wether fossil fuel based or electrified water based) has the ability to possibly be a good alternative. Though there can be the same infrastructure issues as electric.

      In the end, none of us really know without a doubt where this will go. Next year there may be a major shift in ICE efficiency and emissions. Or there may be a major shift in battery technology, hydrogen or even something else. Toyota looks like they’re trying to work on all forms equally and trying to cater individual markets with what works best.

    12. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 03:42 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      At the risk of being labeled a spammy troll... even Jalopnik is beginning to sour on the practicality of EVs:

      https://jalopnik.com/heres-the-main-...ork-1840110802



      https://jalopnik.com/heres-what-happ...can-1832151810

      I'm on vacation now and we are heading back tomorrow... but I'm already thinking of getting gas tonight to get ahead of the crowds. We can't charge from our AirBnB. This would suck
      Yeah. Around the holidays expect any refueling station to be busy. Even with an ICE vehicle you sometimes will come across stations with long lines. It happens.
      Plan ahead. It is not difficult.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
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    13. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 04:07 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Yeah. Around the holidays expect any refueling station to be busy. Even with an ICE vehicle you sometimes will come across stations with long lines. It happens.
      Plan ahead. It is not difficult.
      I recall on the NJTP or the Mass Pike the gas stations can be very busy during holiday weekends. But at least with those if you really want to avoid the lines you could pay your toll, get off at an exit and refuel at a local station. But if you are driving beyond the range of your Tesla and depend on a specific supercharger station, you really don’t have many other options. That seems to be the main issue here.

    14. 11-30-2019 04:32 PM #63
      Horse stable owner says no demand for automobiles. Early automobiles weren't very practical and there wasn't an infrastructure in place to support them.

      Range and charging will be solved, it's just a matter of time. In the short term, range extenders, hydrogen and hybrids make sense and it's sad more aren't taking that route. In the long run capacitor and/or battery technology will advance to the point that it'll take the same about of time to charge as it does to fill up and the infrastructure will be built. The speed with which that happens will depend on whether or not we move away from subsidizing fossil fuels and move all our subsidies towards new technologies, which is the entire purpose of subsidies, not increasing the profits of an established industry.

      When that happens, IC cars will stop being built, IC autos will be collectors items driven on Sundays and were all going to be ok.

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      Last edited by Silver_arrow12!; 11-30-2019 at 04:54 PM.

    15. 11-30-2019 04:42 PM #64
      Trying to equate an almost non existent EV infrastructure to holiday gas station crowding is lol. That snit ain't happening to the degree it's an issue like nor having a place to charge is. And no, with gas the majority of people don't plan ahead because there's no need too.

    16. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 05:15 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      Trying to equate an almost non existent EV infrastructure to holiday gas station crowding is lol. That snit ain't happening to the degree it's an issue like nor having a place to charge is. And no, with gas the majority of people don't plan ahead because there's no need too.
      So you never make sure to fill up before a big event?
      You just drive till the light comes on and hope?
      I rarely let my vehicle drop below half a tank in daily driving due to places I have lived and the thread of power outages during storms. No power, no pumps.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    17. Member
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      11-30-2019 05:27 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Yeah. Around the holidays expect any refueling station to be busy. Even with an ICE vehicle you sometimes will come across stations with long lines. It happens.
      Plan ahead. It is not difficult.
      It's definitely more difficult with an EV than an ICEV. Charging points are more scarce + out of the way and charge times are much longer for the same mileage than fueling. There is enough to plan for and deal with on a trip.

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      11-30-2019 05:32 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Silver_arrow12! View Post
      Horse stable owner says no demand for automobiles. Early automobiles weren't very practical and there wasn't an infrastructure in place to support them.
      Even in their infancy cars were much less of a pain in the ass than horses. EVs are less convenient than ICEVs for a wide range of end users and driving scenarios. This analogy was just as ****ty and invalid the last million times it was invoked. There's no guarantee that range/charging infrastructure problems will be solved and we shouldn't plan like those solutions are foregone conclusions. We should def keep developing EVs but acting like their success is an inevitable promise is idiotic

    19. 11-30-2019 05:40 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Even in their infancy cars were much less of a pain in the ass than horses. EVs are less convenient than ICEVs for a wide range of end users and driving scenarios. This analogy was just as ****ty and invalid the last million times it was invoked. There's no guarantee that range/charging infrastructure problems will be solved and we shouldn't plan like those solutions are foregone conclusions. We should def keep developing EVs but acting like their success is an inevitable promise is idiotic


      You're wrong in literally ever part of your post, and I'm guessing you really don't believe what you wrote, you just want to argue. Do 5 seconds of research on how difficult early cars were to use as transportation, from lack of infrastructure, exploding, getting stuck on roads that were never designed for cars, difficulty in getting spare parts, few trained mechanics to maintain them, I cold go on for hours, but I won't because I know you really don't believe that

      EV is inevitable. It's a matter of investment in technology and infrastructure.

      1/10. Poor effort at trolling. You can do better than that.



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      11-30-2019 05:42 PM #69
      Maybe if Toyota had the same kind of diesel scandal VW had, they'd feel more of a need for pure electrics. It sure seems VW feels that way now.

    21. 11-30-2019 06:07 PM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      So you never make sure to fill up before a big event?
      You just drive till the light comes on and hope?
      I rarely let my vehicle drop below half a tank in daily driving due to places I have lived and the thread of power outages during storms. No power, no pumps.
      "You just drive till the light comes on and hope?". That's stupid talk. There's eight gas stations on my 18 mile route to work, four gas stations on the way to the in laws (just got back and counted them), a twelve mile trip. There's no planning, fuel is everywhere.

      Even on trips. We live in NC and vacation mostly here, SC and Ga. Sometimes we rent an SUV or mini van and you just go. There's plenty of gas stations on the way, it's a non issue.

      On a family trip to Florida, we all flew but a niece and her husband drove straight from home. Trust, those two did zero planning, it's no big whoop to do in a gas vehicle.

      If you don't let your tank get below half full because of where you live, appreciate that's a special circumstance that doesn't effect the rest of the populous as such.

      On a personal note, of you're in the fire zone and dealing with power outages you have my sincerest sympathies. That sucks, just a terrible situation and I wish the best for those stuck in it.

      Even there I would prefer a gas vehicle. I can store that snit in cans and have fuel when the power is out.

    22. 11-30-2019 06:12 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by Silver_arrow12! View Post


      You're wrong in literally ever part of your post, and I'm guessing you really don't believe what you wrote, you just want to argue. Do 5 seconds of research on how difficult early cars were to use as transportation, from lack of infrastructure, exploding, getting stuck on roads that were never designed for cars, difficulty in getting spare parts, few trained mechanics to maintain them, I cold go on for hours, but I won't because I know you really don't believe that

      EV is inevitable. It's a matter of investment in technology and infrastructure.

      1/10. Poor effort at trolling. You can do better than that.



      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
      It's a BS argument to try and base a point around. Horses versus cars does not equate to EVs versus gas vehicles.

      Nobody has an issue with people being proponents of EVs but fek, we went over the horse/car BS here in 2015. It's as wrong headed an argument today as it was then.
      Last edited by Burnette; 11-30-2019 at 06:18 PM.

    23. 11-30-2019 06:17 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by antilock View Post
      Maybe if Toyota had the same kind of diesel scandal VW had, they'd feel more of a need for pure electrics. It sure seems VW feels that way now.
      Toyota is doing fine and compared to VW I would say Toyota is the one to follow of the two in the US market.

      VW has spent much electric vehicles but are hedging their bets too. The Atlas and Tiguan will be their sales leaders well after all these new EVs are released.

    24. 11-30-2019 06:23 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      It's a BS argument to try and base a point around. Horses versus cars does not equate to EVs versus gas vehicles.

      Nobody has an issue with people being proponents of EVs but fek, we went over the horse/car BS here in 2015. It's as wrong headed an argument today as it was then.
      The argument is about technology and infrastructure maturing, horses to autos is one of thousands of examples in the last 100 years.

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    25. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 06:26 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by ImpeccableNEW View Post
      Dont forget the FORD TH!NK CITY i think these are still sold in norway

      They stopped production in early 2011 ...

    26. 11-30-2019 06:28 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by Silver_arrow12! View Post
      The argument is about technology and infrastructure maturing, horses to autos is one of thousands of examples in the last 100 years.

      Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk
      And it's wrong because the difference between horses and cars doesn't equal the difference between EVs and gas vehicles. Flawed argument is flawed.

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