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    1. 11-29-2019 01:36 PM #26
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Really? They had some of the first hybrids on the US market back in 2000, and one of the first large scale (fwiw) hydrogen cars on the market with the Mirai. How is that taking forever to introduce new tech? They also had the RAV4 ev gen 1&2 so not like they never offered an ev (that no one wanted yet California made them sell).

      The reason they didn't integrate cp/aa was due to privacy concerns as the load of data apple/google steals from the car each time you plug in is absurd. I have that from a first hand source that they held out as long as they could for their consumer protection, not to be behind the tech curve- and initially they were only offering cp as it is less intrusive than aa.

      Some companies like Porsche and BMW still don't offer aa, because as I stated, it is more intrusive than cp is. Read just exactly what they take from your car and sell to profile you. Scary.
      Toyota introduced the hybrid car to the world. They were the very first.

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    3. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 01:52 PM #27
      Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
      Toyota introduced the hybrid car to the world. They were the very first.
      Yeah they introduced the Prius in 1997 to the world, but technically Honda beat Toyota to the US hybrid market with the Insight (gen 1) by about half a year. That's why I specified one of the first hybrids in the US- because this thread is pretty much US specific considering they are going to sell EVs in China (UX). Also, Honda beat Toyota to the US mass-market hydrogen market with the Clarity FCX (gen 1), so again trying to be accurate here..
      Last edited by ice4life; 11-29-2019 at 01:59 PM.

    4. Member adrew's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 01:53 PM #28
      Yeah, they have had groundbreaking/niche stuff like the 1st-gen Prius but what I'm trying to say is that they are generally pretty conservative about rolling out new tech in mass-market stuff -- they tend to wait, then leapfrog everyone with cars like the RAV4 Prime. What is the competition for that, the Eclipse Cross? Hyundai Ioniq? There's new new Escape, but it destroys it specs-wise.

      Historically in the US they test new tech with Lexus where there can be more of a white glove treatment. For example, they introduced direct injection on the IS250, where it had some of the universal early teething issues like valve/carbon buildup. But subsequent Toyotas have DI+port injection to address those issues, with the Camry and Corolla only getting DI in their most recent generations, and there are no downsized/turbo powertrains at all (here). I kind of appreciate their strategy where the tech might not be the newest/sexiest, but it will have most of the kinks worked out by the time we see it.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    5. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 01:58 PM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by adrew View Post
      Yeah, they have had groundbreaking/niche stuff like the 1st-gen Prius but what I'm trying to say is that they are generally pretty conservative about rolling out new tech in mass-market stuff -- they tend to wait, then leapfrog everyone with cars like the RAV4 Prime. What is the competition for that, the Eclipse Cross? Hyundai Ioniq? There's new new Escape, but it destroys it specs-wise.
      Not sure where the Eclipse Cross plays into this- It is an ICE only CUV.. Maybe you meant the Outlander PHEV? But there is also the Niro PHEV, Escape PHEV and Crosstrek PHEV. I think Mini just dropped the Countryman PHEV for the new Mini electric- but that is another one that comes to mind. While the Rav4 Prime is truly the leader, there are plenty of options.

    6. 11-29-2019 02:08 PM #30
      Quote Originally Posted by A.Wilder View Post
      I think the ev market is going to explode over the next few years. I get what toyota is saying regarding TODAYS market, but if they focus on TODAY they will be missing from tomorrow.
      People forget that in sales it's not a given by any stretch that what you make will sell. I took a trip to Lewisville/Clemmons this Monday and two chain restaurants have closed down. One had a sign of another "opening soon" in that same spot. Food wasn't bad at either.

      The Ford Fusion, the Chevy Cruz, Cadillac ATS, Chrysler 200, millions spent and hyped to the gills and yet they didn't make it eventually. And they had none of the uphill ills and barriers that EVs continue to face.

      Make no mistake, offering vehicles is a gamble and EVs are in no way a sure thing. Hence why some car companies who are spending the money to go that way are hedging their bets by making platforms that can work with gas and EVs.

      EVs growth will be slow, they're not ready to play the volume game. And even when they are, people have to like the burger you made with it. Remember, there's no shortage of other joints selling what you already know and enjoy, which is gas vehicles. Cheaper and no fueling worries with better resale are things that won't be overcome in just a few years.

      Toyota can get into and compete in the EV arena whenever they choose to do so. They're making the informed decision to see how this plays out. At the infinitesimal take rates that EVs are earning now it's a smart move.

    7. 11-29-2019 03:46 PM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Yeah they introduced the Prius in 1997 to the world, but technically Honda beat Toyota to the US hybrid market with the Insight (gen 1) by about half a year. That's why I specified one of the first hybrids in the US- because this thread is pretty much US specific considering they are going to sell EVs in China (UX). Also, Honda beat Toyota to the US mass-market hydrogen market with the Clarity FCX (gen 1), so again trying to be accurate here..
      Totally forgot about the Insight. Also wasn't there a GM EV that was only leased and then GM crushed every one of them? Can't remember what that car was called . . .

    8. Member adrew's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 03:48 PM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Not sure where the Eclipse Cross plays into this- It is an ICE only CUV.. Maybe you meant the Outlander PHEV? But there is also the Niro PHEV, Escape PHEV and Crosstrek PHEV. I think Mini just dropped the Countryman PHEV for the new Mini electric- but that is another one that comes to mind. While the Rav4 Prime is truly the leader, there are plenty of options.
      That's what I meant - they are both forgettable enough that they blended together in my head.
      Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

    9. 11-29-2019 03:52 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
      Totally forgot about the Insight. Also wasn't there a GM EV that was only leased and then GM crushed every one of them? Can't remember what that car was called . . .
      Was it called the GM EV1?

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      11-29-2019 04:07 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
      Totally forgot about the Insight. Also wasn't there a GM EV that was only leased and then GM crushed every one of them? Can't remember what that car was called . . .
      There was also the BEV S10 in 1997...
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
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    11. Member bmann's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 05:27 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Unilateral Phase Detractor View Post
      I’m sure Toyota will be fine without an EV. They can always catch up later, right?
      The the point above your post, they do have two EVs, they are just EVs with very small batteries and range extenders. The Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime will do much of, and sometimes all of the daily driving of a typical American on electricity alone but then have the gasoline engine for when driving beyond the EV range. Chevy got there first with the Volt, but I think the 4-seat design and generally cramped interior is part of what doomed the Volt. The Prius is also a compact car but the Prius Prime still has more interior volume than either generation of Volt and the RAV4 Prime is likely to be a runaway success as you get comparatively all the interior volume a normal American would want while still having that roughly 40 miles of EV range similar to the 1st gen Volt. Oh, and with 302hp in the RAV4 Prime.

      I'm a big believer in EVs but their Prime cars, especially the RAV4 are making a strong case for continuing down the PHEV road for a while longer.
      I've been a fan of EVs for a while now and I think the PHEV is the sweet spot, at least at the moment. I just wish more manufacturers had PHEV options. Having enough EV range to satisfy most people's daily commutes provides the cost savings and environmental benefit, the gas motor means no range anxiety, and the smaller battery means less environmental and political damage from lithium mining.
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      11-29-2019 06:14 PM #36
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      There was also the BEV S10 in 1997...
      An S10 with 72 miles of range on a good day? GO ON.......

    13. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 06:44 PM #37
      Quote Originally Posted by Rob View Post
      Totally forgot about the Insight. Also wasn't there a GM EV that was only leased and then GM crushed every one of them? Can't remember what that car was called . . .
      Yeah there were a lot of forgotten complaince vehicles for CA which were lease only:

      GM EV1 (sold by Saturn)
      Toyota Rav4 ev
      Ford ranger ev
      Nissan Altra ev
      Chrysler TEvan
      Chevy S10 ev
      Honda ev plus

      These EVs also used old battery tech with the weird paddle chargers and while they had reasonable ranges for the time, they were not anything more than a ruse brought on by manufacturers to appease to California as at the time California was threatening to not let manufacturers who sold x amount of cars in the state to sell ice cars there if they didn't lease a certain amount of non emissions vehicles in the state as well

      The small amount of consumer demand for those EVs brought on the first hybrids which were the Prius and insight, and which were initially limited availability. Not until 2004 with the gen 2 Prius did hybrid tech truly become vastly available to the public.
      Last edited by ice4life; 11-29-2019 at 06:51 PM.

    14. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 06:50 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by bmann View Post
      I've been a fan of EVs for a while now and I think the PHEV is the sweet spot, at least at the moment. I just wish more manufacturers had PHEV options. Having enough EV range to satisfy most people's daily commutes provides the cost savings and environmental benefit, the gas motor means no range anxiety, and the smaller battery means less environmental and political damage from lithium mining.
      I agree, but there are a handful of phevs. Something like 30 different options, which I know doesn't sound like much, but they come in all sizes and prices.

    15. 11-29-2019 07:04 PM #39
      Until EV's behave like ICE cars they will never be adopted enmass no matter what the tree huggers and govmt says. Here is the truth - EVs are a HASSLE. From the special charging stations to limited range to expensive repairs. Who needs that crap? NO ONE.

      yeah I have nothing better to do than subsidize somebody's tech dream with my money. Its bad enough we subsidize via our tax dollars but its another thing for me to spend my net income on something that is worse than what I already have.

    16. Member bmann's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 07:14 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      I agree, but there are a handful of phevs. Something like 30 different options, which I know doesn't sound like much, but they come in all sizes and prices.
      I'm holding out for a PHEV WRX 5-door. Actually the Rav4 Prime looks pretty promising for someone like me with AWD and 0-60 in under 6 seconds.
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      11-29-2019 07:50 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      An S10 with 72 miles of range on a good day? GO ON.......
      Early Leafs and Smart EDs didn’t get much more than the ‘90s-‘00s lead-acid CARB ZEVs...

      With 20:20 hindsight it’s interesting to note the evolution of them predating hybrids, coming back over a decade later with about the same range, but then moving very rapidly to the 120mi, 240mi, and 300mi points.

    18. 11-29-2019 11:22 PM #42
      Dont forget the FORD TH!NK CITY i think these are still sold in norway


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      11-29-2019 11:49 PM #43
      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      Until EV's behave like ICE cars they will never be adopted enmass no matter what the tree huggers and govmt says. Here is the truth - EVs are a HASSLE. From the special charging stations to limited range to expensive repairs. Who needs that crap? NO ONE.

      yeah I have nothing better to do than subsidize somebody's tech dream with my money. Its bad enough we subsidize via our tax dollars but its another thing for me to spend my net income on something that is worse than what I already have.
      Let’s flip that around. Remember, not everyone has the same wants and needs.

      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      Until ICE cars behave like EVs they will never be adopted enmass no matter what old people and luddites say. Here is the truth - gas cars are a HASSLE. From having to stop every week and give some companies money to get around, especially in winter, to expensive repairs. Who needs that crap? NO ONE.

      yeah I have nothing better to do than subsidize somebody's gas station and oil companies with my money. Its bad enough we subsidize via our tax dollars for wars for cheap gas but its another thing for me to spend my net income on something that is worse than what I already have.
      I left the part about expensive repairs intact, as overall EVs are proving to be exceedingly reliable. Dealerships are seriously worried about income as the service side currently makes a lot of money and thats going to dry up. They’re also definitely cheaper to run. They suit driving to work far better than gassers (since you leave with a full charge every morning), they just aren’t as good at road trips. Yet. Honestly I think the Volt/Honda EREV is ideal for that kind of thing if you have a shower enough commute and take periodic road trips. Go to work on electricity and gas up for the open road!

      Nobody is saying they’re cheap enough yet, but that day is coming. Fast.
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      11-30-2019 12:13 AM #44
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post

      Toyota can get into and compete in the EV arena whenever they choose to do so. They're making the informed decision to see how this plays out. At the infinitesimal take rates that EVs are earning now it's a smart move.
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?

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      11-30-2019 12:25 AM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?
      Hydrogen cars are BEVs without a battery. It’s a test bed while someone else spends the money on developing batteries that they can simply buy later.

      I get it, and it’s a smart business move.
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      11-30-2019 12:39 AM #46
      No lies detected in anything the VP said. I think long term, EV is the future, but Toyota doesn't see the business case to dive in right now like the rest of the major players.

      Given Toyota's immense resources, they can do an EV at anytime and it will be at the very least competent and super reliable.

    23. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 07:12 AM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Hydrogen cars are BEVs without a battery. It’s a test bed while someone else spends the money on developing batteries that they can simply buy later.

      I get it, and it’s a smart business move.
      That and the Japanese government heavily subsidizes hydrogen fuel cell tech, so it's extremely cheap for Japanese automakers (Honda has been doing FCVs too) to deploy such vehicles. I believe they also count for something like 10x as much credit in CARB's clean air program, so if they would normally need to lease out 10,000 EVs, they could just lease 1000 FCVs instead to meet the CARB requirements.

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      11-30-2019 07:48 AM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Nobody is saying they’re cheap enough yet, but that day is coming. Fast.
      Can you give us an exact date and time? And if you have one why haven't any actual OEMs corroborrated it?

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      11-30-2019 09:13 AM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?
      I think certain manufacturers are pushing the bandwagon on hydrogen to justify their enormous expenditures in developing these vehicles, BMW, Hyundai and Honda being noted proponents also. Remember, when they started investing in hydrogen years and years ago, battery technology was nowhere near as advanced as it is today.

      But it is coming closer to reality I believe. The infrastructure is more advanced than most people think it is now, and there is significant investment in places like China now to push for this technology instead of pure EV's. Many cities across the world already run hydrogen powered buses too. The major benefit, from what I've read, is not necessarily the fact that people have range anxieties, but rather the problems associated with building charging stations for pure EV's in major urban centres. Here in HK for example, the lack of space for charging means that there is a practical limit to how many EV's can be put on the road, and the issue exists in many other cities too.

    26. 11-30-2019 09:54 AM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?
      The truth is that EVs and hydrogen powered cars are both nascent technologies with little to no infrastructure on a large scale. EVs are definitely more prevalent but you as state, EVs are barely existent in most markets.

      * Anyone that says EVs will arrive in masse in five years isn't looking at it realistically, they're looking at it with their hopes and dreams. I live in NC and in 2018 EVs sold a whopping 4,712 units. And in Minnesota it was a paltry 2,853 units.

      They barely exists and wouldn't at all unaided by regulations. And as we've seen those regulations aren't written in stone.

      So looking at EVs, their real poor sales numbers, lack of infrastructure, higher price, poor resale, the frail state of regulations that can change quickly you see the barriers they pose and why Toyota knows it has time. It's too soon for EVs.

      ** Which brings us to Hydrogen. Hydrogen powered vehicles in masse are a bigger and even further away pipe dream than EVs. Why does Toyota bother with it? Because EVs will remain a very small niche for a very long time, Toyota is looking at an alternative.

      Hydrogen vehicles use oxygen and compressed hydrogen to create electricity and emit water after the process. And hydrogen as of course you know is abundant. So there are pluses.

      Fueling with hydrogen can be dangerous the vehicles cost more than gas counterparts, there's practically no infrastructure and hydrogen vehicles aren't desirable. Take away the fueling fear and there's some commonality with EVs aren't they?

      For people who are EV dreamers, if they really looked at it, getting
      hydrogen powered vehicle products to work would IMO be better for the environment. With EVs you're moving your pollution from the vehicle to the power plant even if it is less than gas, it's there.

      * https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-by-key-state/

      ** https://www.google.com/amp/s/busines...its-future/amp
      Last edited by Burnette; 11-30-2019 at 09:56 AM.

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