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    1. Member
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      11-28-2019 07:19 PM #1
      Toyota held a behind-the-scenes roundtable discussion with about a half-dozen journalists last week at the LA Auto Show. We were in the room. The session gave us a chance to ask Toyota about its views on EVs and its decision to fight against California’s clean air rules. Jack Hollis, group vice-president and general manager of Toyota North America, laid it on the line: “We are continuously working on EV entries,” he said. “But right now, there’s no demand.”

      Outside the door of the conference room, the entire auto industry is making the shift to battery-electric vehicles. But Hollis and his colleagues were pushing for more hydrogen infrastructure and pointing to Toyota’s success with hybrids. The tone-deaf responses to our questions (and from one other journalist willing to ask tough questions) were shocking.


      Earlier in the day, Toyota unveiled the 2021 Toyota RAV4 Prime and the 2021 Toyota Mirai fuel-cell, the company’s signature zero-emissions vehicle (shown above). Hollis was thrilled by the response to the Mirai’s sportier design. “The new Mirai is a hell of a car,” he said. “I think we’re going have a lot of people ask us, can’t you just bring it out with a gas engine?” Wow.

      To provide the clearest statement of Toyota’s stance on EVs, we offer an excerpted transcript from the discussion. It was edited for clarity. We hope it’s only the beginning of our discussions with Toyota.

      One more note: The “one national standard” argument for opposing California emissions is, to put it bluntly, bogus. Toyota could easily negotiate with California, rather than litigate against the state, to achieve a single standard. That’s what BMW, Ford, Honda, and Volkswagen did.

      Jack Hollis leads all sales, marketing, and market representation for Toyota North America.Jack Hollis leads all sales, marketing, and market representation for Toyota North America.

      Electrek: What are Toyota’s plans for pure EVs?

      Jack Hollis: Our strategy today is efficiency. Our gasoline engines have been second to none. Regarding EVs, fuel cell, plugin, and hybrid, we started investing in all four of those powertrains at about the same time. We just rolled out hybrid first. We could see where it was going because of the pressure on fuel prices.

      We have that same mentality as we expand with plugins and fuel cells that use electricity but with onboard charging. And then you go further to the EV. All of these are part of the plan, but doing them in order of the consumer demand. And when you look at it, the demand for electric is less than it is on hybrid. We are continuously working on EV entries. But right now, there is no demand for that.

      Why did Toyota decide to join the lawsuit fighting against California’s ability to determine its fuel standards?

      It’s not a fight against anybody. I think GM and anybody who is voting with us is just voting for one national standard. One national standard would make sense for everybody’s business.

      By meeting California’s standards, wouldn’t it be more in line with standards in Europe and the rest of the world?

      We continue to meet and exceed everyone’s expectations for regulations and will continue to do the same. Our company chose to vote for one national standard. If you have multiple standards, what keeps us from having 50 different standards? Where does this go?

      Toyota is successful because we’re not only complying, but we’re giving the customer what they want and will continue to do so.

      Everybody wants to make this a political issue. But we look at it as a business issue. What’s the best business? Do we try to make what’s the best decision for the end consumer? We’re trying to maintain affordability and improve the environment.

      Are you aware that many of your hybrid buyers are boycotting Toyota because of your decision?

      I respect what you’re saying. But there’s always boycotts of every company for every reason. There’s a lawsuit between GM and FCA, and then you have UAW people resigning. There’s always some issue where people want to use it as political or as a moral issue.

      Or an environmental concern?

      The proof is in the pudding of what the company has always stood for, being the leader in hybrids and saving CO2 emissions.

      “Toyota believes that we need to be able to go step by step *– gasoline to hybrid to plugin to fuel cells and electric.”

      In LA, we’ve seen remarkable news about the electrification of the Mustang, and Volkswagen boldly going into pure electrification. Why does Toyota see things so differently?

      Great question. First of all, I don’t think Volkswagen had much choice. They’re coming out of a situation they had to choose, so they went full electric. We can argue if the demand is there. I don’t think there’s any proof in the marketplace that there’s a demand for EVs. Every company has to make that decision.

      And Ford?

      I’m glad Ford is going for it. Now they’re putting the Mustang name on that. Why do you think they’re doing that? They’re taking their most iconic and most performance-based vehicle and placing the electric into that because maybe they’re questioning demand. They’re using the Mustang’s name recognition to help them. We’ll see how that goes.

      Ford is abandoning sedans and putting those resources towards electric vehicles. Volkswagen decided to go all in to electric and abandon internal combustion and other powertrains. Other companies are doing the same. I happen to be with Toyota, so I believe it’s the right choice to invest in all powertrains.

      Your point is to move where there’s demand. I’m not seeing consumer demand for fuel cells, but you’re fully behind that. There’s more demand for pure electric cars.

      How do you know there’s more demand for electric than fuel cells? It’s like hybrid when we started. There was the logic behind what a customer needs and how customers use vehicles. Would a person rather have to charge for three hours or fuel the vehicle in five minutes?

      At this point, with 150-kilowatt charging and higher, we’re getting close to highway fueling times that match gas cars – more like 15 to 20 minutes rather than five minutes. [He responded before I could add a point about the ease of home charging, the common way to refuel daily.]

      That could be true, but I haven’t seen that. I haven’t seen research or that proven out yet. The use of batteries seems to be an area that the industry is looking into before the customer is ready. Toyota believes that we need to be able to go step by step *– gasoline to hybrid to plugin to fuel cells and electric.

      Will electric be the last one to roll out from Toyota?

      Electric and fuel cell are being studied at the same speeds as we studied hybrids. They will be developed at the same speed. All of this is still being developed.

      “It doesn’t look like anyone’s making money on electric vehicles.”

      We’re seeing a new Mirai fuel-cell car, but we don’t see Toyota unveiling a pure electric car.

      That’s correct. Not yet.

      Are you suggesting that Toyota might introduce an EV at some point soon?

      You might, at some point.

      Are you aware that there will be 100 pure EV nameplates in the market in the next five years?

      I know it. It could end up being awesome, or everybody can be fighting over a 2% market share. Look at all the competitors out there. I don’t know their financials, but it doesn’t look like anyone’s making money on electric vehicles. There’s an element of demand based on mandates. Look at Norway. I don’t think the US free economy is ever going to be that way. I think the US free economy is going to always continue to be a very much consumer-driven demand.

      So at some point, if it ever happens, you’ll be ready to switch to battery-electric vehicles?

      When I see what the capabilities the technology, be it BEV or fuel cell, I get excited because I think the consumer will end up winning. But later. It’s just not this second.

      I am a passionate believer in Toyota’s ability to solve problems. If the problem that we need to solve is the demand for electric vehicles, we will be there.

      Electrek’s Take

      Toyota’s lack of adoption of EVs is disappointing, to say the least. After all, Toyota was considered the good-guy, green automaker for so many years with its Prius. Now the company is attacking EV charging in ads, fighting clean-air standards, and just won’t let go of hydrogen despite the massive rise of battery-electric vehicles.

      In the meantime, Toyota is slinging a worsening fleet of combustion vehicles. It’s so discouraging.

      What’s worse is the lack of awareness of improvements in EV technology and infrastructure. Hey Jack, let’s take a ride in an Audi e-tron or Tesla to experience 150-kW-plus charging. It will be an eye-opener. Or just start driving an EV so you can see how 95% of charging takes place at home. I’ve been driving an EV for 10 years. It takes 10 seconds to plug in at night and I wake up in the morning with a full battery. The energy, most of which comes from my solar panels, costs the equivalent of about a dollar a gallon. How’s that for customer value?

      The real problem in the marketplace is consumer education, which Toyota is actively discouraging. But that problem is rapidly being solved as more EVs enter the marketplace. Almost everyone I know either has a friend or relative who is having a great experience with an EV today.

      Toyota might reap some short-term benefits by not producing EVs. But the long-term negative effects on the #ToyotaTrump brand, product lines, and sales will continue to mount.
      https://electrek.co/2019/11/25/inter...emand-for-evs/

      No market huh? What is the company doing overseas in China selling a Lexus UX Electric?

      This guy played minor league ball before joining Toyota

    2. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      11-28-2019 08:38 PM #2
      Well, BMW said something almost identical a few months ago. The reality is that the volume market for EVs isn't there. Lots of hype and attention given to Tesla, but most people in the US want trucks and SUVs, which have limited EV representation.

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

    3. 11-28-2019 10:05 PM #3
      Good for Toyota for saying it as it is. Cliff notes: there is no true market share/demand for EVs. The companies making them aren't making money on them. The decision to fight Cali is not political, but getting ahead of crazy precedent. VW put all their eggs in the ev basket because of dieselgate. And Ford is experimenting with the mustang nameplate behind their ev hoping for the best (but most likely not going to succeed given the mustang demo).

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      11-28-2019 10:31 PM #4
      He's right. Most of the mainstream companies aggressively pursuing EVs are either under the gun for past environmental/legal transgressions and/or have a long history of bad product decisions and empty bluster. No tech sea change like this has ever succeeded without market support.

      We have a big environmental problem and have to address it... but throwing good money after the bad to design and build EVs nobody is going to buy is stupid. You guys already know how I feel about this and the fact that companies like Honda and Toyota are EV gun shy says a lot

    5. 11-28-2019 11:02 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      He's right. Most of the mainstream companies aggressively pursuing EVs are either under the gun for past environmental/legal transgressions and/or have a long history of bad product decisions and empty bluster. No tech sea change like this has ever succeeded without market support.

      We have a big environmental problem and have to address it... but throwing good money after the bad to design and build EVs nobody is going to buy is stupid. You guys already know how I feel about this and the fact that companies like Honda and Toyota are EV gun shy says a lot
      Well said. And FCA comes to mind immediately in that they only offer the Pacific phev, yet they push the hell out of their environment killers (challengers, chargers- hemi Rams etc) all the while making a profit while paying fines to do so! Talk about dgaf about the environment attitude.

    6. Member BlakeV's Avatar
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      11-28-2019 11:11 PM #6
      He is right. The 1-2% of enviro-freaks ready to spend the $ aren't really volume.

    7. 11-28-2019 11:31 PM #7
      It's about time someone has the BALLS to speak plain truth.
      No one gives a **** about EV's and their 2% market share except clueless innovationTards who sip lattes and ride unicycles to their journalism cubicle.
      Toyota is running a REAL business, not a marketing stunt and felon stock scam

      Big respect to TOYOTA

    8. 01-07-2020 05:14 AM #8
      Yeah, man, you are right. I totally agree with you.

    9. Member onebadbug's Avatar
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      11-28-2019 11:15 PM #9
      I started reading that and it didn't take long to see that whoever wrote it prefers electric cars and may dislike ICE engines in general. Noticing the link and clicking it pretty much proved that.

      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      No market huh? What is the company doing overseas in China selling a Lexus UX Electric?
      It seems pretty easy to answer this, Toyota is selling a Lexus UX Electric where the potential buyer is looking for one.
      Next edit by onebadbug; tomorrow at 10:13 AM.

      What you get isn't always what you see.

    10. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 11:46 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      https://electrek.co/2019/11/25/inter...emand-for-evs/

      No market huh? What is the company doing overseas in China selling a Lexus UX Electric?
      The guy is Toyota's North American group vice-president and general manager. So his focus is North America. I don't think he is entirely wrong either. The EV demand in North America isn't as strong as some other markets where government support helps create demand, and where government environmental awareness is also a lot more focused than it currently is in the USA.

      But as you mention, China is one of those areas that does have strong EV demand and companies (including Toyota) are building products to sell in those markets:

      BMW, Great Wall to build new China plant for electric cars

      MUNICH (Reuters) - BMW (BMWG.DE) and its partner Great Wall Motor (601633.SS) said they plan to build a plant in China with a capacity of 160,000 cars per year, and which will produce BMW’s electric MINI brand and Great Wall Motor models.

      The 650 million euro ($716 million) plant is due for completion in 2022.

      Automakers and suppliers are scrambling to meet tough new Chinese quotas for less polluting cars. Those rules call for electric and rechargeable hybrid vehicles to account for a fifth of total sales by 2025.

      The new joint venture Spotlight Automotive, will be based in Zhangjiagang near Shanghai and eventually employ 3,000 staff.

      Earlier this month, Great Wall gained domestic regulatory approval for the new plant.

      Great Wall is China’s top sport utility vehicle and pick-up truck maker. It also builds Ora, an affordable battery electric vehicle brand in Baoding, the city where it is based.

      BMW is following the footsteps of larger peer Volkswagen (VOWG_p.DE), which is readying two Chinese factories to build electric cars next year, and which will have a combined production capacity of 600,000 vehicles.

      Tesla (TSLA.O) is aiming for more than 500,000 cars a year by building a new factory in Shanghai.
      Chinese Tesla challenger’s new car costs a third of the price of a Model S

      Xpeng’s P7 is now available to pre-order as the company aims to take on Tesla, which Xpeng’s founder called overestimated in China




      Can’t afford a Tesla and not willing to drive around in the company’s new eccentrically futuristic Cybertruck
      ? Well, China has another option for you at a much cheaper price.

      Guangzhou-based Xpeng is one of the country’s EV startups hoping to become the “Chinese Tesla,” and it has just started pre-orders of its newest model, the P7. The sport sedan is selling for prices ranging from 270,000 yuan to 370,000 yuan (US$38,400 to US$52,600).

      That makes the P7 nearly a third of the price of a Tesla Model S in China. And it already has more than 15,000 pre-orders, according to Xpeng.

      The timing is interesting. Just 10 days earlier, Tesla flaunted its first vehicle made in China -- a more affordable Model 3 priced at 355,800 yuan (US$50,500). Tesla has been building its first Gigafactory outside of the US in Shanghai, where it just recently started producing its first vehicles
      .

      “We believe China could become the biggest market for Model 3,” the company said in its third-quarter earnings report.

      The P7, which started pre-orders on Sunday at Auto Guangzhou 2019, takes cues from the streamlined, futuristic design of Tesla’s Model S. (Picture: Xpeng)The P7, which started pre-orders on Sunday at Auto Guangzhou 2019, takes cues from the streamlined, futuristic design of Tesla’s Model S. (Picture: Xpeng)
      The P7, which started pre-orders on Sunday at Auto Guangzhou 2019, takes cues from the streamlined, futuristic design of Tesla’s Model S. (Picture: Xpeng)
      This article originally appeared on ABACUS
      Can’t afford a Tesla and not willing to drive around in the company’s new eccentrically futuristic Cybertruck
      ? Well, China has another option for you at a much cheaper price.

      Guangzhou-based Xpeng is one of the country’s EV startups hoping to become the “Chinese Tesla,” and it has just started pre-orders of its newest model, the P7. The sport sedan is selling for prices ranging from 270,000 yuan to 370,000 yuan (US$38,400 to US$52,600).

      That makes the P7 nearly a third of the price of a Tesla Model S in China. And it already has more than 15,000 pre-orders, according to Xpeng.

      The timing is interesting. Just 10 days earlier, Tesla flaunted its first vehicle made in China -- a more affordable Model 3 priced at 355,800 yuan (US$50,500). Tesla has been building its first Gigafactory outside of the US in Shanghai, where it just recently started producing its first vehicles.

      “We believe China could become the biggest market for Model 3,” the company said in its third-quarter earnings report.
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      But Tesla faces competition from hundreds of EV makers in China, including Tesla wannabes like Tencent-backed NIO and WM Motors. Xpeng has been particularly irksome to Tesla, and not just because the company’s cars bear a striking resemblance
      to Tesla’s designs.

      Xpeng is one of the country’s most prominent EV startups to have sprung up in recent years thanks to Beijing’s push to get more electric cars on the streets. The company’s backers include Alibaba, IDG Capital and smartphone maker Xiaomi. The five-year-old company recently raised US$440 million in funding.

      The similarities between the two companies gained wider attention when Tesla sued its former employee Guangzhi Cao in March for stealing trade secrets. Tesla claimed Cao passed the stolen information to Xpeng, his new employer. Tesla said
      Xpeng “transparently imitated Tesla’s design, technology, and even its business model.”

      Tesla also pointed out that Xpeng introduced features similar to its own Autopilot, called X-Pilot, and it hired former Tesla engineers who had worked on the driver assistance feature that Tesla “spent hundreds of millions of dollars” developing.

      Although Cao admitted he uploaded Tesla’s Autopilot-related source code to his own drive, he denies that the files included trade secrets. Xpeng said it has nothing to do with the incident. Cao maintains he didn’t transfer Autopilot information to Xpeng.
      Tesla is currently facing financial pressure, having lost more than US$1 billion in the first half of the year. EqualOcean analyst An Feng said Tesla is unlikely to reduce the price of the Model 3 made in China in the short term. This could open the door for Tesla wannabes like XPeng to capture price-conscious Chinese consumers.

      Xpeng founder and CEO He Xiaopeng mused in Weibo in March that most people underestimate Tesla's challenge to traditional cars while also overestimating Tesla's competitiveness in China.

      But Xpeng Motors President Brian Gu pointed out in an interview with CNBC that Xpeng and Tesla are not competing in the same price range.

      “Xpeng is apparently betting on consumers in the so-called new first-tier cities, while Tesla is trying to meet demand from the country's upper-middle class in the major metropolises,” EqualOcean analyst Ivan Platonov said. While the first group prefers a good deal, urbanites in large cities like Beijing and Shanghai are more likely to go for the brand, he added.
      Last edited by spockcat; 11-29-2019 at 11:51 AM.

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      11-29-2019 12:14 PM #11
      Well, if your job is sales and marketing, you're not typically going to promote needs and markets your company is not in.

    12. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 01:09 PM #12
      I think the ev market is going to explode over the next few years. I get what toyota is saying regarding TODAYS market, but if they focus on TODAY they will be missing from tomorrow.
      signatures are annoying, right?

    13. 11-29-2019 02:08 PM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by A.Wilder View Post
      I think the ev market is going to explode over the next few years. I get what toyota is saying regarding TODAYS market, but if they focus on TODAY they will be missing from tomorrow.
      People forget that in sales it's not a given by any stretch that what you make will sell. I took a trip to Lewisville/Clemmons this Monday and two chain restaurants have closed down. One had a sign of another "opening soon" in that same spot. Food wasn't bad at either.

      The Ford Fusion, the Chevy Cruz, Cadillac ATS, Chrysler 200, millions spent and hyped to the gills and yet they didn't make it eventually. And they had none of the uphill ills and barriers that EVs continue to face.

      Make no mistake, offering vehicles is a gamble and EVs are in no way a sure thing. Hence why some car companies who are spending the money to go that way are hedging their bets by making platforms that can work with gas and EVs.

      EVs growth will be slow, they're not ready to play the volume game. And even when they are, people have to like the burger you made with it. Remember, there's no shortage of other joints selling what you already know and enjoy, which is gas vehicles. Cheaper and no fueling worries with better resale are things that won't be overcome in just a few years.

      Toyota can get into and compete in the EV arena whenever they choose to do so. They're making the informed decision to see how this plays out. At the infinitesimal take rates that EVs are earning now it's a smart move.

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      11-30-2019 12:13 AM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post

      Toyota can get into and compete in the EV arena whenever they choose to do so. They're making the informed decision to see how this plays out. At the infinitesimal take rates that EVs are earning now it's a smart move.
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?

    15. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 12:25 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?
      Hydrogen cars are BEVs without a battery. It’s a test bed while someone else spends the money on developing batteries that they can simply buy later.

      I get it, and it’s a smart business move.
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    16. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-30-2019 07:12 AM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Hydrogen cars are BEVs without a battery. It’s a test bed while someone else spends the money on developing batteries that they can simply buy later.

      I get it, and it’s a smart business move.
      That and the Japanese government heavily subsidizes hydrogen fuel cell tech, so it's extremely cheap for Japanese automakers (Honda has been doing FCVs too) to deploy such vehicles. I believe they also count for something like 10x as much credit in CARB's clean air program, so if they would normally need to lease out 10,000 EVs, they could just lease 1000 FCVs instead to meet the CARB requirements.

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      11-30-2019 09:13 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?
      I think certain manufacturers are pushing the bandwagon on hydrogen to justify their enormous expenditures in developing these vehicles, BMW, Hyundai and Honda being noted proponents also. Remember, when they started investing in hydrogen years and years ago, battery technology was nowhere near as advanced as it is today.

      But it is coming closer to reality I believe. The infrastructure is more advanced than most people think it is now, and there is significant investment in places like China now to push for this technology instead of pure EV's. Many cities across the world already run hydrogen powered buses too. The major benefit, from what I've read, is not necessarily the fact that people have range anxieties, but rather the problems associated with building charging stations for pure EV's in major urban centres. Here in HK for example, the lack of space for charging means that there is a practical limit to how many EV's can be put on the road, and the issue exists in many other cities too.

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      11-30-2019 10:01 AM #18
      If there is room to park there is room to charge. That said, I think diversification- EVs, hydrogen vehicles, hybrids- are all necessary and helpful on the way to a mostly EV world.

    19. 11-30-2019 09:54 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
      I agree with that.

      But what is there fascination with Hydrogen? If EV is just 2% of the market, how much can hydrogen possibly be?
      The truth is that EVs and hydrogen powered cars are both nascent technologies with little to no infrastructure on a large scale. EVs are definitely more prevalent but you as state, EVs are barely existent in most markets.

      * Anyone that says EVs will arrive in masse in five years isn't looking at it realistically, they're looking at it with their hopes and dreams. I live in NC and in 2018 EVs sold a whopping 4,712 units. And in Minnesota it was a paltry 2,853 units.

      They barely exists and wouldn't at all unaided by regulations. And as we've seen those regulations aren't written in stone.

      So looking at EVs, their real poor sales numbers, lack of infrastructure, higher price, poor resale, the frail state of regulations that can change quickly you see the barriers they pose and why Toyota knows it has time. It's too soon for EVs.

      ** Which brings us to Hydrogen. Hydrogen powered vehicles in masse are a bigger and even further away pipe dream than EVs. Why does Toyota bother with it? Because EVs will remain a very small niche for a very long time, Toyota is looking at an alternative.

      Hydrogen vehicles use oxygen and compressed hydrogen to create electricity and emit water after the process. And hydrogen as of course you know is abundant. So there are pluses.

      Fueling with hydrogen can be dangerous the vehicles cost more than gas counterparts, there's practically no infrastructure and hydrogen vehicles aren't desirable. Take away the fueling fear and there's some commonality with EVs aren't they?

      For people who are EV dreamers, if they really looked at it, getting
      hydrogen powered vehicle products to work would IMO be better for the environment. With EVs you're moving your pollution from the vehicle to the power plant even if it is less than gas, it's there.

      * https://www.statista.com/statistics/...-by-key-state/

      ** https://www.google.com/amp/s/busines...its-future/amp
      Last edited by Burnette; 11-30-2019 at 09:56 AM.

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      11-30-2019 10:16 AM #20
      ** Which brings us to Hydrogen. Hydrogen powered vehicles in masse are a bigger and even further away pipe dream than EVs. Why does Toyota bother with it? Because EVs will remain a very small niche for a very long time, Toyota is looking at an alternative.
      And not a temporary one.

      We are dependent on combustible at so many levels.

      Last week in in North East Canada, the teamsters were on strike and no CN trains were circulating. It provoked a crisis for the farmers because they was no more propane necessary to HEAT their facilities; animals were scheduled to die but it resumed just on time.

      I have a plant with an heat treatment industrial process that runs also on propane. It came in hours of stopping the operations.

      Another ones are relying to natural gas for heating.

      Guess what, all of those systems could use electricity as the local supply is the cheapest in the world (Quebec). If we did that, that would cost multiples times what we have now.

      So yes, Toyota is 100% right, an alternative is needed for many, many reasons, and just electricity is NOT the answer on a larger perspective. We need a synthetic fuel, that will also be used in airplanes.
      Last edited by BlakeV; 11-30-2019 at 01:23 PM.

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      11-29-2019 05:27 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by Unilateral Phase Detractor View Post
      I’m sure Toyota will be fine without an EV. They can always catch up later, right?
      The the point above your post, they do have two EVs, they are just EVs with very small batteries and range extenders. The Prius Prime and RAV4 Prime will do much of, and sometimes all of the daily driving of a typical American on electricity alone but then have the gasoline engine for when driving beyond the EV range. Chevy got there first with the Volt, but I think the 4-seat design and generally cramped interior is part of what doomed the Volt. The Prius is also a compact car but the Prius Prime still has more interior volume than either generation of Volt and the RAV4 Prime is likely to be a runaway success as you get comparatively all the interior volume a normal American would want while still having that roughly 40 miles of EV range similar to the 1st gen Volt. Oh, and with 302hp in the RAV4 Prime.

      I'm a big believer in EVs but their Prime cars, especially the RAV4 are making a strong case for continuing down the PHEV road for a while longer.
      I've been a fan of EVs for a while now and I think the PHEV is the sweet spot, at least at the moment. I just wish more manufacturers had PHEV options. Having enough EV range to satisfy most people's daily commutes provides the cost savings and environmental benefit, the gas motor means no range anxiety, and the smaller battery means less environmental and political damage from lithium mining.
      Do not be persecuted by the pompous fedora, balanced by the equilibrium, fortified by the
      government's inability to eradicate, or foreshadow—taken from the Hebrew word: foreskin

    22. 11-29-2019 06:50 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by bmann View Post
      I've been a fan of EVs for a while now and I think the PHEV is the sweet spot, at least at the moment. I just wish more manufacturers had PHEV options. Having enough EV range to satisfy most people's daily commutes provides the cost savings and environmental benefit, the gas motor means no range anxiety, and the smaller battery means less environmental and political damage from lithium mining.
      I agree, but there are a handful of phevs. Something like 30 different options, which I know doesn't sound like much, but they come in all sizes and prices.

    23. 11-29-2019 07:04 PM #23
      Until EV's behave like ICE cars they will never be adopted enmass no matter what the tree huggers and govmt says. Here is the truth - EVs are a HASSLE. From the special charging stations to limited range to expensive repairs. Who needs that crap? NO ONE.

      yeah I have nothing better to do than subsidize somebody's tech dream with my money. Its bad enough we subsidize via our tax dollars but its another thing for me to spend my net income on something that is worse than what I already have.

    24. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 11:49 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      Until EV's behave like ICE cars they will never be adopted enmass no matter what the tree huggers and govmt says. Here is the truth - EVs are a HASSLE. From the special charging stations to limited range to expensive repairs. Who needs that crap? NO ONE.

      yeah I have nothing better to do than subsidize somebody's tech dream with my money. Its bad enough we subsidize via our tax dollars but its another thing for me to spend my net income on something that is worse than what I already have.
      Let’s flip that around. Remember, not everyone has the same wants and needs.

      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      Until ICE cars behave like EVs they will never be adopted enmass no matter what old people and luddites say. Here is the truth - gas cars are a HASSLE. From having to stop every week and give some companies money to get around, especially in winter, to expensive repairs. Who needs that crap? NO ONE.

      yeah I have nothing better to do than subsidize somebody's gas station and oil companies with my money. Its bad enough we subsidize via our tax dollars for wars for cheap gas but its another thing for me to spend my net income on something that is worse than what I already have.
      I left the part about expensive repairs intact, as overall EVs are proving to be exceedingly reliable. Dealerships are seriously worried about income as the service side currently makes a lot of money and thats going to dry up. They’re also definitely cheaper to run. They suit driving to work far better than gassers (since you leave with a full charge every morning), they just aren’t as good at road trips. Yet. Honestly I think the Volt/Honda EREV is ideal for that kind of thing if you have a shower enough commute and take periodic road trips. Go to work on electricity and gas up for the open road!

      Nobody is saying they’re cheap enough yet, but that day is coming. Fast.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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      11-30-2019 07:48 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Nobody is saying they’re cheap enough yet, but that day is coming. Fast.
      Can you give us an exact date and time? And if you have one why haven't any actual OEMs corroborrated it?

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