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    1. Member 66Satellite's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:04 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      There is more to it than just brand:

      -Perceived lack of reliability even if other brands are just as bad.

      -Reputation of Italian cars being junk.

      -Lots of stories in the media about brand new Alfas having problems.

      I dont think they are actually worse than anyone else but their reputation is far worse. Go to the Porsche Macan forum and read about some of the problems (transfer case, blah, blah, blah). Yet Porsche has a reputation for better reliability than everyone.
      Yep.

      My Stelvio has been awesome for the last 1.5 years and 12,000 miles.

      That said, when the lease is up in 2021, I probably won't buy it. For two reasons:

      1. Can't predict the depreciation
      2. If I move away from Seattle, I don't know where I'd go for service.

      I was excited about the GTV but I guess now it's been cancelled.

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    3. Member Egz's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:09 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by tincanman99 View Post
      There is more to it than just brand:

      -Perceived lack of reliability even if other brands are just as bad.

      -Reputation of Italian cars being junk.

      -Lots of stories in the media about brand new Alfas having problems.

      I dont think they are actually worse than anyone else but their reputation is far worse. Go to the Porsche Macan forum and read about some of the problems (transfer case, blah, blah, blah). Yet Porsche has a reputation for better reliability than everyone.
      This is a strong factor. I'm considering a used Alfa as a replacement in a couple of years, and perceived reliability pops up in my head.

      Alfa is just going to need several strong years to start to flip people's minds on reliability. After all, they have been out of the US for decades, so most people remember the fantastic reliability of the 80/early 90s.

    4. 12-02-2019 01:10 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      Perception is reality. Good news for me really as I'd love a barely used but very depreciated Giulia.
      7,000miles and $23,000 baby
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    5. Member DerSpiegel's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:21 PM #104
      I still can't believe the turd-sandwich Lancia Ypsilon outsells all Alfas worldwide.....and they only sell Ypsilons in Italy.





      Then I got to thinking if Alfa is in danger of disappearing, then why do the below race cars exist? Seems like a strange strategy to go wild with Formula 1 visibility.....unless the commitment to the Alfa Romeo brand really is a long-term effort and the current low sales aren't of particular concern in the short run. Hmmm......

      Last edited by DerSpiegel; 12-03-2019 at 12:01 PM.

    6. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:27 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Cr4shT3st View Post
      7,000miles and $23,000 baby
      I thought you paid $31K?
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

    7. 12-02-2019 01:28 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Take your own advice and go to the Giulia forums.

      There's some MAJOR horror stories out there. And you do not have the backing of the Porsche dealership.

      You also have some catastrophic depreciation thanks to said reputation, which is why you should lease it.
      Agreed with everything you wrote.

      The dealerships closing is a huge problem. Porsche on the other hand is not going anywhere.

    8. 12-02-2019 01:31 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      I thought you paid $31K?
      Right. Sticker price was $53 and change. $23k is the depreciation.
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    9. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:35 PM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by Cr4shT3st View Post
      Right. Sticker price was $53 and change. $23k is the depreciation.
      Oh riiight, got you. By the way I did a quick check and 2019's with 5K miles are now popping up for ~$33K. So tempting. Hey since I have you I have a question, the 2020's are now out and they're touting adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist, was this really not an option before? I thought they at least had adaptive cruse but maybe it can't do stop/go traffic?
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

    10. 12-02-2019 01:48 PM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      Oh riiight, got you. By the way I did a quick check and 2019's with 5K miles are now popping up for ~$33K. So tempting. Hey since I have you I have a question, the 2020's are now out and they're touting adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist, was this really not an option before? I thought they at least had adaptive cruse but maybe it can't do stop/go traffic?
      My '18 has the adaptive cruise, etc. The lane keep assist is just a warning fart noise, it does not move the wheel at all. I leave it turned off. The adaptive cruise works pretty well. It will bring the car to a complete stop if needed. You have to tap the throttle to resume - it will not move the car once it's come to a complete stop. Most of the time it will bring it down to 2-3mph and then back up to speed. I use it almost every day. It is radar-based, not camera-based, and last night the radar got covered in snow and I got a warning telling me adaptive cruise and forward collision warning was disabled.

      I saw a video review and it looks like the 2020 cars have actual lane keep assist with steering control.

      I don't know if the '19s fixed it, or if the infotainment update in 2020 is what you want, but Android auto in my car is extremely buggy. Like, every time I plug my phone in it does something different. I can usually get it to do what I want but it is frustrating that every day I have the same startup routine and yet the car gives me different results. Alfas gonna Alfa, right?
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    11. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 01:57 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      I have a question, the 2020's are now out and they're touting adaptive cruise control and lane keep assist, was this really not an option before? I thought they at least had adaptive cruse but maybe it can't do stop/go traffic?
      ACC w/ the ability to do stop and go traffic has been available as an option since new. ‘17-‘19 Giulias with ACC also have lane departure warning.

      Lane keep assist is sustained control of lateral motion control. It might keep you in your intended lane of travel. It might not. These are just assist systems. Driver is still 100% responsible for steering, keeping hands on wheel, paying attention, detecting obstacles, avoiding crashes, etc.

    12. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 02:02 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by Cr4shT3st View Post
      It will bring the car to a complete stop if needed. You have to tap the throttle to resume - it will not move the car once it's come to a complete stop.
      On my car it will automatically resume so long as the stop is brief. If stopped for more than a couple seconds a tap of the accelerator pedal is required like you said.

    13. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 08:29 PM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by DerSpiegel View Post

      Then I got to thinking if Alfa is in danger of disappearing, then why do the below race cars exist? Seems like a strange strategy to go wild with Formula 1 visibility.....unless the commitment to the Alfa Romeo brand really is a long-term effort and the current low sales aren't of particular concern in the short run. Hmmm......
      Alfa has more racing cachet than US passenger car cachet.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
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      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    14. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 08:46 PM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      ACC w/ the ability to do stop and go traffic has been available as an option since new. ‘17-‘19 Giulias with ACC also have lane departure warning.

      Lane keep assist is sustained control of lateral motion control. It might keep you in your intended lane of travel. It might not. These are just assist systems. Driver is still 100% responsible for steering, keeping hands on wheel, paying attention, detecting obstacles, avoiding crashes, etc.
      So to be clear, the only thing that's really new for 2020 is the ability to keep the car in the lane, not the (more important IMO) ability for the car to do the stop/go traffic by itself via ACC? Just trying to understand what exactly is new for 2020 here vs what already existed.
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

    15. Moderator silverspeedbuggy's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 08:55 PM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      So to be clear, the only thing that's really new for 2020 is the ability to keep the car in the lane, not the (more important IMO) ability for the car to do the stop/go traffic by itself via ACC? Just trying to understand what exactly is new for 2020 here vs what already existed.
      Nicer interior trim and center console, wireless phone charging. Touchscreen and improved interface.

    16. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      12-02-2019 08:57 PM #115
      I bet I know what would make Alfa really pop with the murrican public, have it peddled by a good looking smartass type actor, like Ryan Reynolds, and make a marketing video on a popular streaming website like Netflix!
      Germans are white people. Look up #84 on the list of things white people like: Gear. Lots of Gear. We even have gear farkles over here. -Atomicalex

      Upon my word I have had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers. -James Byford McCudden

    17. 12-03-2019 12:03 AM #116
      New 2020 Alfa Romeo Giulia and Stelvio Make North American Debut at 2019 AutoMobility LA
      *Alfa Romeo Giulia and Stelvio represent an evolution of world-class performance, state-of-the-art technology and seductive Italian styling
      *2020 model year adds a suite of all-new standard and available enhancements to both the interior and exterior:
      *New interior updates enhance key driver touchpoints, including an all-new center console, all-new leather-wrapped shifter, knurled aluminum-look rotary dial, upgraded *steering wheel design, phone stowage area with available wireless charging, and laminated front glass for improved cabin ambience
      *New, standard, 8.8-inch touchscreen display with improved graphics, faster processor, driver-configurable interactive widgets, and Performance Pages, combined with now-standard SiriusXM Radio with complimentary 12-month subscription, deliver an all-new user experience
      *New available Advanced Driver Assistance System (ADAS) Package features level II autonomous driving capability with Highway Assist, Traffic Jam Assist, Active Lane Keep Assist, Active Lane Departure Warning, Active Blind Spot Assist, Traffic Sign Recognition, Drowsy Driver Detection, and navigation providing an optimized balance between driver and machine
      *New metallic exterior color options including Anodized Blue (Giulia and Stelvio), Lunare White (Giulia and Stelvio) and Verde Visconti (Giulia)
      Stelvio models receive key exterior enhancements including a new body-color kit (standard on Sport models and above) featuring painted wheel flares, lower rocker panels, and rear fascia as well as an available Dark Miron appearance kit available on Sport models, for a contrasted look
      *New Exterior Carbon Fiber package available on Stelvio Quadrifoglio models
      *2020 Alfa Romeo Giulia and Stelvio U.S. Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) – excluding destination – starts at:
      Giulia: $39,345
      Giulia Quadrifoglio: $74,445
      Stelvio: $41,345
      Stelvio Quadrifoglio: $80,445

      2019's are probably low because the 2020's are hear with interior improvements



    18. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 11:29 AM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by silverspeedbuggy View Post
      Nicer interior trim and center console, wireless phone charging. Touchscreen and improved interface.
      ...all of which were MAJOR shortcomings in the old cars. The tech in particular was egregious, and a deal breaker for me.
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    19. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 11:43 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by DerSpiegel View Post

      Then I got to thinking if Alfa is in danger of disappearing, then why do the below race cars exist? Seems like a strange strategy to go wild with Formula 1 visibility.....unless the commitment to the Alfa Romeo brand really is a long-term effort and the current low sales aren't of particular concern in the short run. Hmmm......
      I think an Alfa Romeo rebirth (and Formula 1 team) was a bit of a passion project for Sergio Marchione. With his death, and with the merger, an unceremonious exit from F1 wouldn't surprise me much. Since the cost of developing the Giulia/Stelvio/Toenail platform is already sunk (as is the cost for Chryco dealers selling Alfa), I think they will soldier on in the U.S. for at least a few more years.

      They are in a really weird place with brand equity. When I tell people I own an Alfa Romeo, I get a very wide range of reactions. Some people react like I tell them I own a Ferrari. Others like I told them I own a Fiat. The reputation for poor reliability is rather unfortunate. Reliability was a huge risk in essentially rebooting the brand from scratch. Part of the reason why brands like Toyota are so reliable is they progress in small iterative adjustments throughout many years. No truly revolutionary changes have happened to the Camry in 30+ years, and every change in a new generation seems to be rooted in the prior. For Alfa, everything was pretty much brand new as was the team. That's a recipe for kinks needing to be worked out. The sad thing is even if they started cranking out cars with Camry reliability tomorrow, it would take longer than they have to wait before the perception changes. The only saving grace is that cars in the class of the Giulia/Stelvio are already mostly leased, so they only need to convince first buyers that they will make it 3 years without issue.

    20. Member DerSpiegel's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 12:02 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I think an Alfa Romeo rebirth (and Formula 1 team) was a bit of a passion project for Sergio Marchione. With his death, and with the merger, an unceremonious exit from F1 wouldn't surprise me much. Since the cost of developing the Giulia/Stelvio/Toenail platform is already sunk (as is the cost for Chryco dealers selling Alfa), I think they will soldier on in the U.S. for at least a few more years.

      They are in a really weird place with brand equity. When I tell people I own an Alfa Romeo, I get a very wide range of reactions. Some people react like I tell them I own a Ferrari. Others like I told them I own a Fiat. The reputation for poor reliability is rather unfortunate. Reliability was a huge risk in essentially rebooting the brand from scratch. Part of the reason why brands like Toyota are so reliable is they progress in small iterative adjustments throughout many years. No truly revolutionary changes have happened to the Camry in 30+ years, and every change in a new generation seems to be rooted in the prior. For Alfa, everything was pretty much brand new as was the team. That's a recipe for kinks needing to be worked out. The sad thing is even if they started cranking out cars with Camry reliability tomorrow, it would take longer than they have to wait before the perception changes. The only saving grace is that cars in the class of the Giulia/Stelvio are already mostly leased, so they only need to convince first buyers that they will make it 3 years without issue.

      10/10 post, would read again.

    21. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 12:41 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I think an Alfa Romeo rebirth (and Formula 1 team) was a bit of a passion project for Sergio Marchione. With his death, and with the merger, an unceremonious exit from F1 wouldn't surprise me much. Since the cost of developing the Giulia/Stelvio/Toenail platform is already sunk (as is the cost for Chryco dealers selling Alfa), I think they will soldier on in the U.S. for at least a few more years.

      They are in a really weird place with brand equity. When I tell people I own an Alfa Romeo, I get a very wide range of reactions. Some people react like I tell them I own a Ferrari. Others like I told them I own a Fiat. The reputation for poor reliability is rather unfortunate. Reliability was a huge risk in essentially rebooting the brand from scratch. Part of the reason why brands like Toyota are so reliable is they progress in small iterative adjustments throughout many years. No truly revolutionary changes have happened to the Camry in 30+ years, and every change in a new generation seems to be rooted in the prior. For Alfa, everything was pretty much brand new as was the team. That's a recipe for kinks needing to be worked out. The sad thing is even if they started cranking out cars with Camry reliability tomorrow, it would take longer than they have to wait before the perception changes. The only saving grace is that cars in the class of the Giulia/Stelvio are already mostly leased, so they only need to convince first buyers that they will make it 3 years without issue.
      I think you basically are correct but your point of view is not.

      Reliability needs to be baked into any new vehicle, and while a new platform from a nascient manufacturer like AR poses significant risk, it's the responsibility of any OEM leadership to ensure the quality and reliability is baked in from Day 1. And ESPECIALLY for AR, given their (well earned) reputation for reliability, they needed these cars to be home runs...and from a reliability standpoint, THEY ARE NOT.

      They are good cars for an enthusiast, but not sweating the reliability details really hurts the buyers - the cars are maintenance-intensive, reliant on dealerships with spotty coverage and service levels, and it ultimately impacts the resale value of the cars as well.

      Now, in addition to all the major heavy lifts that a vehicle line relaunch brings, they have an even bigger quality control problem to live down. While I appreciate Sergio's passion project, he needed to put more effort into QC to ensure AR launched with success.

      He didn't do that.
      Matt
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    22. Member 66Satellite's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 01:02 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I think an Alfa Romeo rebirth (and Formula 1 team) was a bit of a passion project for Sergio Marchione. With his death, and with the merger, an unceremonious exit from F1 wouldn't surprise me much. Since the cost of developing the Giulia/Stelvio/Toenail platform is already sunk (as is the cost for Chryco dealers selling Alfa), I think they will soldier on in the U.S. for at least a few more years.

      They are in a really weird place with brand equity. When I tell people I own an Alfa Romeo, I get a very wide range of reactions. Some people react like I tell them I own a Ferrari. Others like I told them I own a Fiat. The reputation for poor reliability is rather unfortunate. Reliability was a huge risk in essentially rebooting the brand from scratch. Part of the reason why brands like Toyota are so reliable is they progress in small iterative adjustments throughout many years. No truly revolutionary changes have happened to the Camry in 30+ years, and every change in a new generation seems to be rooted in the prior. For Alfa, everything was pretty much brand new as was the team. That's a recipe for kinks needing to be worked out. The sad thing is even if they started cranking out cars with Camry reliability tomorrow, it would take longer than they have to wait before the perception changes. The only saving grace is that cars in the class of the Giulia/Stelvio are already mostly leased, so they only need to convince first buyers that they will make it 3 years without issue.
      Yep.

      I think the perceived/real reliability issues will keep most people from buying. A lease is at lease relatively safe.

      For the lease crowd the poor tech and ultra high level of driver engagement may be a turnoff, especially on a test drive. My wife felt very nervous when driving my Stelvio vs her XC60. It's perfect for me but I'm not a normal buyer.

      Great cars IMO but I'm not sure they will make it beyond another few years.

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      12-03-2019 01:07 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by 66Satellite View Post
      Yep.

      I think the perceived/real reliability issues will keep most people from buying. A lease is at lease relatively safe.

      For the lease crowd the poor tech and ultra high level of driver engagement may be a turnoff, especially on a test drive. My wife felt very nervous when driving my Stelvio vs her XC60. It's perfect for me but I'm not a normal buyer.

      Great cars IMO but I'm not sure they will make it beyond another few years.
      Yup. My thought was considering how often the high level of driver engagement would be a benefit for my wife in her daily life, and decided not frequently enough to deal with the negatives of the product and the distant dealers from home/work.

    24. 12-03-2019 01:12 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      ...all of which were MAJOR shortcomings in the old cars. The tech in particular was egregious, and a deal breaker for me.
      you ain't wrong
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    25. Geriatric Member absoluteczech's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 01:14 PM #124
      I just want a used QF for 35k with extended warranty

    26. Member Senior Member's Avatar
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      12-03-2019 07:27 PM #125
      Funny I just got this flyer by mail today, and I immediately thought of this thread.


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