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    1. Member Slipstream's Avatar
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      11-27-2019 05:52 PM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by absoluteczech View Post
      Also wondering what this will do to the 4 cheese Giulia.
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    3. Member ice4life's Avatar
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      11-27-2019 08:23 PM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      he's running into the same problem I am - the cars he likes are all way out of the price range, and there's nothing else in-range that captures his interest.
      What a first world problem.

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      11-27-2019 08:50 PM #53
      I will never forget the story someone posted about the dealer who opened a Fiat dealership, then converted it to an Alfa dealership, and is now yelling at the clouds about his misfortune

    5. 11-27-2019 10:47 PM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by Slipstream View Post
      You forgot the stupido part.

      Noun

      stupido m (plural stupidi, feminine stupida)

      idiot, fool, moron, clot

      Sei uno stupido! ― You're a moron!

    6. Senior Member Iroczgirl's Avatar
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      11-27-2019 10:52 PM #55
      Alfa basically doesn't exist in the US. Complete marketing failure.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Crimping Is Easy View Post
      You're always better off with a Citroën.™

    7. Member
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      11-27-2019 11:19 PM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by Iroczgirl View Post
      Alfa basically doesn't exist in the US. Complete marketing failure.
      Marketing can only do so much

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      11-27-2019 11:56 PM #57
      When is the CNBC special? They did one for why Fiat is failing, and how RAM is threatening GM and Ford.

    9. Moderator silverspeedbuggy's Avatar
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      11-28-2019 10:24 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Marketing can only do so much
      Marketing could help a lot. I'm betting there's little brand awareness outside of enthusiasts and Italian Americans.*

      *I have Italian relatives through marriage and they are very aware of Fiat and Alfa and they're definitely not "car people." It's interesting to note none of them actually own an Italian car.

    10. 11-28-2019 03:27 PM #59
      Ugh. I hate reading this stuff....

      I bought a Launch Edition 4C as a 3rd car in early 2015. I absolutely love it. Very visceral experience. Definitely for 'drivers' only, as the car has zero practicality, but it's a ton of fun to blast around on a mountain road. The reviewers that complain about some plasticy switch gear(look at the exposed carbon tub instead?), and that make believe turning the wheel of a non-power steering car is as difficult as a worlds strongest man competition, are just a bunch of weenies that shouldn't be test driving an enthusiast car. These are the same guys that give great reviews to "sports cars" that weigh 4,400lbs. Rant on that over.

      I live in Las Vegas and see Giulias and Stevios EVERYWHERE. I literally see them every day in Summerlin where I live. It makes me sad that AR isn't doing well. I thought I had heard that the regular 2.0L Giulias were fine, and that it was just the Quads that had problems. Maybe that's wrong.

      The new Alfas are beautiful cars, and IMO drive better than most of their competition. I leased an F30 M Sport for my wife in 2013, and I just never loved the car the entire 3 years I owned it. Felt heavy, and the 6speed manual never felt like it was geared right. On top of that, it had random problems that needed dealer attention, and the dealership experience I had couldn't have been worse. We went back to Audi for the family car and will stay there for the time being. Point is, presenting Audi/BMW/Mercedes as the 'reliable' options isn't entirely fair. Those brands have plenty of problems too. It's still worth it to me to have a few problems here and there and drive a car I am passionate about, than buy a car I consider bland, but will be bullet proof wrt reliability. But that's me, and I totally understand the opposite view.

      I think the driving experience and looks of the Alfa models are there, they just obviously need to dial in a bunch of other things.

      I hope they can pull a rabbit out of a hat. I just love having the brand around as an option, and they are beautiful to look at, and even better to drive. I encourage everyone to stop by an Alfa dealership and take out a Giulia or Stelvio for a test drive. You will instantly feel something special about these cars that can't be put into words. Apparently that might not be enough though...

    11. Member CostcoPizza's Avatar
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      11-28-2019 03:32 PM #60
      Flash -- please make a 4C ownership thread if you haven't already!

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      11-28-2019 10:06 PM #61
      This is likely a local issue, but our sole Alfa dealer is a combined Maserati/Alfa dealer and the arrogance they display is unreal. They keep the cars locked at the autoshow and won't even give you the time of day. The dealer is not even remotely convenient, so between the location and their douchbaggery, I refuse to even look at the cars.

      It's too bad the Fiat dealers aren't also Alfa dealers.

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      11-28-2019 10:25 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by silverspeedbuggy View Post
      Marketing could help a lot. I'm betting there's little brand awareness outside of enthusiasts and Italian Americans.*

      *I have Italian relatives through marriage and they are very aware of Fiat and Alfa and they're definitely not "car people." It's interesting to note none of them actually own an Italian car.
      I remember Alfa having some pretty high profile provocative ads on TV and Youtube. They tried. It's just not easy to pry people away from decades of Lexuses and Germans. Brand inertia is significant.

    14. 11-29-2019 12:10 AM #63
      Quote Originally Posted by sandwich-chris View Post
      This is likely a local issue, but our sole Alfa dealer is a combined Maserati/Alfa dealer and the arrogance they display is unreal. They keep the cars locked at the autoshow and won't even give you the time of day. The dealer is not even remotely convenient, so between the location and their douchbaggery, I refuse to even look at the cars.

      It's too bad the Fiat dealers aren't also Alfa dealers.
      In Vegas, Fiat is paired with Alfa Romeo. I was under the impression that that was more the norm than the exception, and that Alfa dealers were mostly paired with Fiat and not Maserati. In Vegas, Maserati is with Ferrari.

    15. 11-29-2019 12:49 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by silverspeedbuggy View Post
      Marketing could help a lot. I'm betting there's little brand awareness outside of enthusiasts and Italian Americans.*

      *I have Italian relatives through marriage and they are very aware of Fiat and Alfa and they're definitely not "car people." It's interesting to note none of them actually own an Italian car.
      Interesting. I have Italian neighbors and associates in Anzio, where we have our other home and visit often. If I could generalize, I would say Italians view Italian cars as we view, say, Mitsubishi.... French cars as, oh, Chevys... English cars as Buick and Lincolns, and German cars as German cars. And they sure do love the top three or four Japanese and Korean cars more and more...

    16. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 06:57 AM #65
      so why is it so hard for Alfa Romeo to get their reliability up to par? I get that their cars aren't 2004 Corollas, but they aren't doing any rocket science under the hood either. I'm so surprised that, with all the information that is known, with all the resources available to anyone, large manufacturers know what it takes to get quality up to snuff and yet still completely botch their bread and butter. Toyota isn't doing any magic; they just seem to apply their know-how to their products.

      Also, Alfa shouldn't be hoping for huge sales numbers here either. Most people seem to buy what they're comfortable with, and only very few people will go out and get something completely different. Alfa Romeo is a "mystical brand" to the vast majority of people and to grow sales numbers was always going to be a very slow game. It will have its ups and downs, but you have to be patient. And don't be surprised if your sales numbers are terribly tarnished by your remarkably poor reliability...

      In a world where people can't be bothered to even check their blind spots, or simply look away from their phone to focus a little on driving, no one is willing to accept the inconvenience of an unreliable car.
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    17. Member
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      11-29-2019 09:46 AM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      so why is it so hard for Alfa Romeo to get their reliability up to par? I get that their cars aren't 2004 Corollas, but they aren't doing any rocket science under the hood either. I'm so surprised that, with all the information that is known, with all the resources available to anyone, large manufacturers know what it takes to get quality up to snuff and yet still completely botch their bread and butter. Toyota isn't doing any magic; they just seem to apply their know-how to their products.

      Also, Alfa shouldn't be hoping for huge sales numbers here either. Most people seem to buy what they're comfortable with, and only very few people will go out and get something completely different. Alfa Romeo is a "mystical brand" to the vast majority of people and to grow sales numbers was always going to be a very slow game. It will have its ups and downs, but you have to be patient. And don't be surprised if your sales numbers are terribly tarnished by your remarkably poor reliability...

      In a world where people can't be bothered to even check their blind spots, or simply look away from their phone to focus a little on driving, no one is willing to accept the inconvenience of an unreliable car.
      It's only really the QFs that are unreliable. The base 2.0T cars are fine in the context of European luxury cars.

      But there are like 20 luxury brands on offer here. Too many. Any kind of headwind whatsoever is gonna be a big problem for like half of them

    18. Member lowlight's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 10:35 AM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by Flash View Post
      Ugh. I hate reading this stuff....

      I bought a Launch Edition 4C as a 3rd car in early 2015. I absolutely love it. Very visceral experience. Definitely for 'drivers' only, as the car has zero practicality, but it's a ton of fun to blast around on a mountain road. The reviewers that complain about some plasticy switch gear(look at the exposed carbon tub instead?), and that make believe turning the wheel of a non-power steering car is as difficult as a worlds strongest man competition, are just a bunch of weenies that shouldn't be test driving an enthusiast car. These are the same guys that give great reviews to "sports cars" that weigh 4,400lbs. Rant on that over.

      I live in Las Vegas and see Giulias and Stevios EVERYWHERE. I literally see them every day in Summerlin where I live. It makes me sad that AR isn't doing well. I thought I had heard that the regular 2.0L Giulias were fine, and that it was just the Quads that had problems. Maybe that's wrong.

      The new Alfas are beautiful cars, and IMO drive better than most of their competition. I leased an F30 M Sport for my wife in 2013, and I just never loved the car the entire 3 years I owned it. Felt heavy, and the 6speed manual never felt like it was geared right. On top of that, it had random problems that needed dealer attention, and the dealership experience I had couldn't have been worse. We went back to Audi for the family car and will stay there for the time being. Point is, presenting Audi/BMW/Mercedes as the 'reliable' options isn't entirely fair. Those brands have plenty of problems too. It's still worth it to me to have a few problems here and there and drive a car I am passionate about, than buy a car I consider bland, but will be bullet proof wrt reliability. But that's me, and I totally understand the opposite view.

      I think the driving experience and looks of the Alfa models are there, they just obviously need to dial in a bunch of other things.

      I hope they can pull a rabbit out of a hat. I just love having the brand around as an option, and they are beautiful to look at, and even better to drive. I encourage everyone to stop by an Alfa dealership and take out a Giulia or Stelvio for a test drive. You will instantly feel something special about these cars that can't be put into words. Apparently that might not be enough though...
      Nice post. Alfa Romeo has created the "driver's cars" in their respective segments with the Giulia & Stelvio, but folks care too much about tech these days to care. IMO, Alfa Romeo is the new 90's BMW, performance first with the allure of Italian flair as well.

      Hoping FCA & PSA merger can protect Alfa Romeo in the US.

      I remember Alfa having some pretty high profile provocative ads on TV and Youtube. They tried. It's just not easy to pry people away from decades of Lexuses and Germans. Brand inertia is significant.
      ^^^Also, this. Cadillac has found out the hard way that it's tough to shake perceptions despite making excellent product. Competitors have their share of problems as well, but everyone loves to jump on Alfa Romeo for being "unreliable".
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    19. Member
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      11-29-2019 12:35 PM #68
      Whether or not Cadillac made excellent product is def up for debate

      But several other brands have made stuff at least as good as the Germans but never surpassed their brand equity. Lexus is the biggie. Luxury cars are not rational purchases so trying to win objectively is a mistake. Alfa admittedly did focus on design and marketing but again to expect to nullify decades of brand equity with an edgy 30 second commercial is just not realistic. AR will need to keep at it for decades before we can really have this convo... and who knows what the hell the auto market will look like then

    20. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 03:43 PM #69
      If the issue was only brand inertia, then you would have expected to see them doing well in Europe where they were an established brand. But they aren't. Moreover Alfa Romeos sales are on a downward trend both in the USA and in Europe, which don't make sense it was only other brands inertia that were the limiting factor.

      Not to mention that the Model 3 have managed to become the most sold car in that class (premium sedan) in both the USA and Europe despite the inertia of the other brands, so it should be possible to overcome.

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      11-29-2019 04:19 PM #70
      Brand inertia is more than having a brand that just exists. Saab, Pontiac, Plymouth etc would still be here if that were the case. It's having a brand that people value over a long period of time. Alfa may have been around in Europe but their relevance basically died with the Busso.

    22. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 04:30 PM #71
      It was the German brands that had the claimed brand inertia which in turn limited Alfas sales ...

      And you might think they stopped being relevant with the disconnection of the Busso-engines, but the 159 was never offered with that either yet it did fine enough. And the Giulia was never offered with it either, yet they sold significantly more of them in 2017 than now.

    23. Member Senior Member's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 04:32 PM #72
      Alfa's dealership network/experience is similar to getting a Filet Mignon from McDonald's drive thru.

    24. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 04:52 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by lowlight View Post
      everyone loves to jump on Alfa Romeo for being "unreliable".
      People can live with unreliable cars if the warranty and service experience is good. See Jaguar’s ability to stay alive past the early 2000s. The problem is Alfa had to build a dealer network from scratch and no one made the necessary investments there: not FCA and not dealers. Things like nice customer waiting lounge areas, guaranteed loaner car availability of equal or greater value, valet service to pick up and drop off your car from home or work, competent service personnel, parts supply chain logistics that prioritizes existing customers over new car production, clear policies regarding nav map updates and general software support, making product improvements via RRTs available to all customers, straightforward and honest service managers and service writers, etc. I can go on and on.

      FCA seems to have a hard time overcoming cultural inertia both in USA and Italy. Dodge/ Chrysler/ Jeep dealers don’t know jack about how to treat customers special. To be honest, neither do Ferrari dealers unless you happen to buy a new Fcar every year in an attempt to climb the totem pole to get a crack at Supercar or Special Projects car ownership. Chrysler corporation has always been mired in mediocrity with the occasional flash of brilliance and Fiat is hopelessly Italian. If you’ve ever been to Italy, you know that very few people work with any urgency unless it personally suits them.

      I live in an area with 5M people and 4 Alfa dealers. 1 is garbage, 2 are mediocre and 1 is nice. Unfortunately, the good one is the farthest away from me and also happens to be in another state, which makes getting simple things like annual state safety or emissions inspections done a pain. Having a good dealer is crucial to the ownership experience. Sadly, Alfa was only ever going to get one chance to make a good first impression and they blew it with me 5x over. The product itself is great but the ownership experience falls flat. Instead of impressing me and making people like me brand ambassadors shouting from the mountaintops telling friends and family to buy them, I tell people they’re great driving cars but getting service sucks. If you’re an enthusiast and can handle a car with special needs and you have a second car to drive in case of emergency then buy an Alfa now if you’ve ever wanted one as they won’t be available for much longer.
      Last edited by freedomgli; 11-29-2019 at 04:55 PM.

    25. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      11-29-2019 04:53 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Senior Member View Post
      Alfa's dealership network/experience is similar to getting a Filet Mignon from McDonald's drive thru.
      Bingo

    26. 11-29-2019 06:56 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      People can live with unreliable cars if the warranty and service experience is good. See Jaguar’s ability to stay alive past the early 2000s. The problem is Alfa had to build a dealer network from scratch and no one made the necessary investments there: not FCA and not dealers. Things like nice customer waiting lounge areas, guaranteed loaner car availability of equal or greater value, valet service to pick up and drop off your car from home or work, competent service personnel, parts supply chain logistics that prioritizes existing customers over new car production, clear policies regarding nav map updates and general software support, making product improvements via RRTs available to all customers, straightforward and honest service managers and service writers, etc. I can go on and on.

      FCA seems to have a hard time overcoming cultural inertia both in USA and Italy. Dodge/ Chrysler/ Jeep dealers don’t know jack about how to treat customers special. To be honest, neither do Ferrari dealers unless you happen to buy a new Fcar every year in an attempt to climb the totem pole to get a crack at Supercar or Special Projects car ownership. Chrysler corporation has always been mired in mediocrity with the occasional flash of brilliance and Fiat is hopelessly Italian. If you’ve ever been to Italy, you know that very few people work with any urgency unless it personally suits them.

      I live in an area with 5M people and 4 Alfa dealers. 1 is garbage, 2 are mediocre and 1 is nice. Unfortunately, the good one is the farthest away from me and also happens to be in another state, which makes getting simple things like annual state safety or emissions inspections done a pain. Having a good dealer is crucial to the ownership experience. Sadly, Alfa was only ever going to get one chance to make a good first impression and they blew it with me 5x over. The product itself is great but the ownership experience falls flat. Instead of impressing me and making people like me brand ambassadors shouting from the mountaintops telling friends and family to buy them, I tell people they’re great driving cars but getting service sucks. If you’re an enthusiast and can handle a car with special needs and you have a second car to drive in case of emergency then buy an Alfa now if you’ve ever wanted one as they won’t be available for much longer.
      You hit the nail on the head with this post. The dealers are CRAP. Most are dealers that converted over from Chrysler/Plymouth/Jeep and also started handling Fiat. They don't have a clue on people's expectations when you spend 50K+ on car.

      I don't expect to have my butt kissed but just do your job which many dealers don't. Every time I have been to a non-luxury dealer it feels like I am going to a flea market full of hustlers looking to rip me off. And the service people? Lets just say a lot of them need to their attitude checked.

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