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    1. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      11-20-2019 11:49 PM #1
      They combined cars + trucks/SUVs. Not sure how I feel about that.

      Also: no BMWs (but there is a Supra). But the Boxster/Cayman, GTI, and Accord soldier on.

      Corvette
      Accord
      Gladiator
      Telluride
      CX-5
      Cayman/Boxster
      Macan
      Ram
      Supra
      GTI/GLI

      They claim no quotas but split 50/50 cars and SUVs/trucks. Hmm.

      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...0best-winners/
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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    3. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      11-20-2019 11:55 PM #2
      I was daily my RX8 when I had my last CX-5 loaner (current gen, non turbo 2.5 GT awd with tech package).
      And while most fours seem thrashy when driven next to my RX8... that CX-5 did not.
      It seemed quicker and noticeably more refined than the previous CX-5 loaner (1st gen fwd 2.5 sport), even though the awd should have been slower.
      It just didn't feel the same or slower.. maybe because the better refinement made the engine feel less taxed? Idk.
      But I understand why magazines love the CX-5 even when others offer better specs.
      My only gripe was the initial sporty feeling could make you push it much harder.. and the chassis is not up for that.
      It feels sporty in normal and slightly aggressive driving.. not more.

    4. Member
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      11-21-2019 12:40 AM #3
      So it's really the 5 Best now?

      Compared to '19 it looks like we lost the M2, Mustang GT, G70, Civic, Miata, and E-Class for the high-riders and the Supra. I think if they replaced the Macan with the X3 and then dropped the Gladiator or RAM to keep the Miata, I would agree with the list completely. As is, I "only" mostly agree with it.

    5. Member Meroving1an's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 01:06 AM #4
      Good list, though the Supra is a surprise.

    6. Member Bicycle019's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 03:23 AM #5
      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gti-jetta-gli/

      They bring the same verve to a crosstown jaunt as they do to barreling into the braking zone, throwing a perfect heel and toe to one of the World’s great manual transmissions as you rotate toward the apex and get back on the gas and on to the next corner.
      Whoa whoa whoa there....easy killer...

      As someone who's had one of these for a while (and had to swap out the stock clutch DIY to handle a basic tune) I'm 40k deep in this.

      Overall feel is decent from the factory, but not class leading IMHO. Just a few small upgrades have made a pretty significant improvement in the manual transmission experience. Some basic shift bushings on the end of the shift cables that help take up some of the stock vagueness tightened up the lever throw significantly. Clutch pedal throw is unreasonably long from the factory, like many other German cars these days, but easily remedied with a stop spacer sourced from Ebay for under $10. Removing the small clutch diverter valve from the hydraulic clutch line, which costs nothing more than 30 minutes of your time and maybe a clutch line bleed, tops, offers a significant improvement during fast driving as well.

      I was pretty happy with my Mk7 as it came from the dealer except for the transmission, it was "just OK". Hard to reconcile how C&D call it one of the "world's greatest manuals" when so many other great examples exist.
      DCI - Party time, excellent.

    7. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 10:14 AM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Bicycle019 View Post

      I was pretty happy with my Mk7 as it came from the dealer except for the transmission, it was "just OK". Hard to reconcile how C&D call it one of the "world's greatest manuals" when so many other great examples exist.
      You basically just wrote the same thing as C&D. When you write "so many other great examples", it indicates that the GTI/GLI is similar to other great manuals and that there aren't better manuals.

    8. Member
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      11-21-2019 10:41 AM #7
      Not surprised to see the GTI make a repeat visit, but the GLI is a pleasant surprise.
      Too bad the Jetta has that face.

      These cars are not really the same anymore, so combining them here seems odd.

    9. Member
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      11-21-2019 10:44 AM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      They combined cars + trucks/SUVs. Not sure how I feel about that.

      They claim no quotas but split 50/50 cars and SUVs/trucks. Hmm.

      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...0best-winners/
      The rise of the "sportbacks" is blurring the lines between sedan/hatchback cars and SUVs, so I understand the combination.
      The upcoming RAM Sportback will blur lines even further.






    10. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 11:00 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      The rise of the "sportbacks" is blurring the lines between sedan/hatchback cars and SUVs
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    11. Member HarryC's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 11:40 AM #10
      Civic belongs on this list instead of the Accord.

      Gladiator is a flash-in-the-pan.

      Telluride is a home run. Glad to see it there.
      Current: 2018 Honda Civic LX 6MT, 2016 Lexus GX460
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    12. Member
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      11-21-2019 11:44 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Bicycle019 View Post
      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...gti-jetta-gli/



      Whoa whoa whoa there....easy killer...

      As someone who's had one of these for a while (and had to swap out the stock clutch DIY to handle a basic tune) I'm 40k deep in this.

      Overall feel is decent from the factory, but not class leading IMHO. Just a few small upgrades have made a pretty significant improvement in the manual transmission experience. Some basic shift bushings on the end of the shift cables that help take up some of the stock vagueness tightened up the lever throw significantly. Clutch pedal throw is unreasonably long from the factory, like many other German cars these days, but easily remedied with a stop spacer sourced from Ebay for under $10. Removing the small clutch diverter valve from the hydraulic clutch line, which costs nothing more than 30 minutes of your time and maybe a clutch line bleed, tops, offers a significant improvement during fast driving as well.

      I was pretty happy with my Mk7 as it came from the dealer except for the transmission, it was "just OK". Hard to reconcile how C&D call it one of the "world's greatest manuals" when so many other great examples exist.
      Well, with so few manuals left, it's not hard to be near the top.
      Quote Originally Posted by 20aeman View Post
      No, the real enthusiast vehicle would be the RX8. It combines V12 Lamborghini gas mileage with Hyundai Genesis 4cyl. performance.

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      11-21-2019 11:54 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Bicycle019 View Post
      I was pretty happy with my Mk7 as it came from the dealer except for the transmission, it was "just OK". Hard to reconcile how C&D call it one of the "world's greatest manuals" when so many other great examples exist.
      x2. The manual and the gearing were the two biggest disappointments in my MK7.
      2017 Subaru BRZ w/ PP 6MT (SCCA TT T4)/B7 Audi A4 Quattro 6MT (The winter beater)/1.8L Rotrex Time Attack Miata 5MT/NB1 Chump Car Endurance Racing Miata 6MT

    14. Member gti5dr06's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:00 PM #13
      are the G20s really that bad? Reviews seem to say massive improvement over the F30, or is the nonconventional gauges that people are mad about?

      Supra corvette accord are obvious choices
      Quote Originally Posted by konigwheels View Post
      Wow, it amazes me that we have children in here that can't read a couple paragraphs. No wonder America's doing so well in education! Can't take the time to read, but sure can find the time to post. Self indulgence at it's finest.

      TL;DR should be banned and changed to ID;CR or I'm dumb, can't read.

    15. Member Shmi's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:00 PM #14
      I wonder how the Telluride will hold up long term. Sorta in the market for an SUV in the next year, and that's a nice price:feature ratio. I just want to be able to keep it for 10 years or so without regrets.

    16. Member
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      11-21-2019 12:02 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by HarryC View Post
      Civic belongs on this list instead of the Accord.

      Gladiator is a flash-in-the-pan.

      Telluride is a home run. Glad to see it there.
      I'm a Wrangler guy, and I feel the same way.
      This vehicle feels like a compromised mid-sized truck and a compromised Wrangler.
      The things each vehicle had to give up in the compromise hurt the perceived benefits.
      The shallow and short bed isn't great for a mid-sized truck, and the long WB (because of the short bed) isn't great for the stuff the Wrangler is good at.
      People are going to eventually get over the pent up desire for a Wrangler truck, and go back to buying Tacomas.
      The next gas price spike will likely see PSA-FCA ditch Gladiator.

    17. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:03 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by HarryC View Post
      Civic belongs on this list instead of the Accord.
      I think I'd agree with that. The Civic runs from well equipped LX models on up to the Type-R with sedan, coupe, hatchback forms and three different sporty trim models: the hatchback Sport, the sedan/coupe Si, and the Type-R.

      I'd additionally drop the Supra to gain the Mustang lineup which runs from cheap 300hp turbo coupe on up to the GT350(R) as one of the best 8000rpm+ affordable performance coupes and even the GT500 now. As a family, the Mustang is a better option than the Supra and I'm pretty sure direct review comparisons have found the GT350 to be a better car than the Supra even when compared head to head.

      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      The next gas price spike will likely see PSA-FCA ditch Gladiator.
      I already just paid $3/gallon for my last fillup and this is in winter, not even the summer price runup. Gas prices don't seem to be so directly tied to buying habits anymore. I think the price-sensitive drivers all switched to fuel efficient vehicles already leaving people who are not price-sensitive as the core buyers of lifestyle vehicles. Also, isn't the diesel coming to the Gladiator next year? I know it's been previewed in the Wrangler 4-door already but I could swear the expectation is that it's coming to the Gladiator next year too.
      Last edited by AZGolf; 11-21-2019 at 12:05 PM.

    18. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:04 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      The next gas price spike will likely see PSA-FCA ditch Gladiator.
      I dunno, I bet the tooling pays for itself quickly and it can't be that much more expensive to have it in the lineup given the Wrangler/Ram mashup nature of the thing.


      I liked having it on the list but when I read the article I was kinda annoyed at how much they slammed the Wrangler/Unlimited and basically said the award was just for the Gladiator. clearly I disagree. I think for most people the Wrangler Unlimited is a better fit.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    19. Member Travis Grundke's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:11 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by gti5dr06 View Post
      are the G20s really that bad? Reviews seem to say massive improvement over the F30, or is the nonconventional gauges that people are mad about?

      Supra corvette accord are obvious choices
      I honestly have no idea why there are journalist complaints about the G20 3-Series, it really is outstanding - especially the M340i. Massive step up from the F30, for sure.

      I think it's autojourno's who are still pining away for the long lost age of hydraulic steering, etc al. The G20 is very, very good.

    20. Member gti5dr06's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:30 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      I honestly have no idea why there are journalist complaints about the G20 3-Series, it really is outstanding - especially the M340i. Massive step up from the F30, for sure.

      I think it's autojourno's who are still pining away for the long lost age of hydraulic steering, etc al. The G20 is very, very good.
      to be honest, initially i hated the front end and the gauges but they've grown on me. And for those of us who wanted a sedan m235i its as close as I think we'll get.

      I do want to see how the gran coupe version will look assuming it doesn't have the beaver teeth from the 4 concept.
      Quote Originally Posted by konigwheels View Post
      Wow, it amazes me that we have children in here that can't read a couple paragraphs. No wonder America's doing so well in education! Can't take the time to read, but sure can find the time to post. Self indulgence at it's finest.

      TL;DR should be banned and changed to ID;CR or I'm dumb, can't read.

    21. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 12:34 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by Meroving1an View Post
      Good list, though the Supra is a surprise.
      the most underhanded way they could award Toyota
      signatures are annoying, right?

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      11-21-2019 12:36 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by Travis Grundke View Post
      I honestly have no idea why there are journalist complaints about the G20 3-Series, it really is outstanding - especially the M340i. Massive step up from the F30, for sure.

      I think it's autojourno's who are still pining away for the long lost age of hydraulic steering, etc al. The G20 is very, very good.
      I think it's because they aren't the benchmark of an "excellent" driving car as they once were in the E90 series. Dynamically, they have been lacking for a while.
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      11-21-2019 01:04 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Shmi View Post
      I wonder how the Telluride will hold up long term. Sorta in the market for an SUV in the next year, and that's a nice price:feature ratio. I just want to be able to keep it for 10 years or so without regrets.
      I'm in the same boat, especially given C&D's comments about their 40k long-term Stinger feeling prematurely old. Then again, I have friends with 10 year old Hyundais and their cars are doing great.

      Also, I'm not sure that my alternative choice (an Explorer ST) would do much better.

      Tom

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      11-21-2019 01:48 PM #23
      Telluride

      Where is the Atlas for 2020

    25. How do I resize a picture? Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 01:48 PM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I dunno, I bet the tooling pays for itself quickly and it can't be that much more expensive to have it in the lineup given the Wrangler/Ram mashup nature of the thing.


      I liked having it on the list but when I read the article I was kinda annoyed at how much they slammed the Wrangler/Unlimited and basically said the award was just for the Gladiator. clearly I disagree. I think for most people the Wrangler Unlimited is a better fit.
      I also don't think gas prices will have negative effect on Jeep Wrangler/Gladiator sales.

      The people buying them aren't buying a practical vehicle in the first place. Expensive gas won't change that.
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      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      maybe its just me, but i wouldnt put anything in the circle of "unrealistic" when it comes to sex.

    26. Member chuckster1's Avatar
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      11-21-2019 02:09 PM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      I'm a Wrangler guy, and I feel the same way.
      This vehicle feels like a compromised mid-sized truck and a compromised Wrangler.
      The things each vehicle had to give up in the compromise hurt the perceived benefits.
      The shallow and short bed isn't great for a mid-sized truck, and the long WB (because of the short bed) isn't great for the stuff the Wrangler is good at.
      People are going to eventually get over the pent up desire for a Wrangler truck, and go back to buying Tacomas.
      The next gas price spike will likely see PSA-FCA ditch Gladiator.
      Jeep had no choice but to bring the Gladiator to market. The mid-size truck market is growing (why do you think Ford got back in..with a crappy, old model Ranger that universally everyone is meh about?), the Gladiator does things no other truck can do, the bed is not much smaller than a Frontier, Taco or Canyon/Colorado, the Gladiator can go topless, and just like any other Wrangler it looks better when larger tires/wheels/lift are added. Everyone is moving to SUVs, CUVs and more space/off-road capabilities even if it just means better handling in inclement weather. Lastly, the Taco's headroom and seating position sucks. Has always sucked, even in my old 1996 Toyota truck.

      So, the Gladiator was a natural extension of the Wrangler line-up.

      Do I think it will sell? I'm seeing a lot of Wranglers and Gladiators sitting on dealer lots. And now Jeep is...giving employee pricing on them. That's not a good sign for Jeep. But then again is the Wrangler worth $50K? I don't think so. Even a Rubicon is overpriced IMO. Do I want one? Yes. But they should be selling for $40k considering they are all over the road. It's not a niche vehicle.

      If I could swing a Gladiator in Rubicon trim for $45K, i'd be mighty tempted. Throw on 35s or 37s and a two inch lift and that truck will go anywhere. Topless even.

      MHO. Your mileage may vary.
      Quote Originally Posted by GoHomePossum View Post
      See? You have to relax before you can completely take in all of TCL's magic.

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