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    1. Senior Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 08:35 PM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      Actually I only just recently found out that men aren't ever supposed to be helpful for women. It's considered benevolent sexism - a way for men to exert authority over women and declare their superiority. It seems bass-ackwards to me, but apparently that's just how it is now. Men aren't allowed to help women anymore because it takes away their agency and portrays women as powerless. Fine by me, I guess, it means less work on my part and women get the satisfaction of knowing their accomplishments are truly their own.
      I had a student from the local university get angry with me for holding the door for her at the coffee shop. I hold the door for anyone behind me male or female, any age, every morning. Itís just polite.

      She said ďI can get my own door thanks.Ē

      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

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    3. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 08:57 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      I had a student from the local university get angry with me for holding the door for her at the coffee shop. I hold the door for anyone behind me male or female, any age, every morning. Itís just polite.

      She said ďI can get my own door thanks.Ē

      Itís weird now, when we go somewhere as a family Iím usually carrying the ďbabyĒ, a 35lb 2y/o. So my wife gets the door for me, cuz my arms are full. Feels weird to have her open doors for me, but makes sense. Other women do it for me too, cuz baby.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    4. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 09:52 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      <snip>

      I think this whole issue has less to do with sexism and more to do with just low hanging fruit. The easiest difference to acknowledge will be the one that gets harped on the most in almost any social situation. Male, female, gay, transgender, religion, nationality, race, neighbourhood etc. In groupthink situations where there is one thing that is a commonality among the majority they will by default make note of the simplest most obvious thing to make fun of that will be supported by the group because that one thing is the one difference they can all observe easily. That's not a defense of sexism, it shouldn't be tolerated. I'm just saying if I go to the Southern U.S. I know from experience i'm going to get harped on for being Canadian and talking funny from a group of guys. Because i'm different from them, that's the one obvious outcast thing to them that they can all harp on. [/rant}
      Thanks for taking the time to unpack that. Like all things when it comes to how humans treat one another, it's very nuanced, and not binary. It's not "men have to act and look a certain way to get a female to touch them," and it's not "all strong proud independent women yell at men who hold doors." Life works in the middle, and everyone carries their own bag of isht with them daily. Thanks for walking that point of view out.

      Now, I did keep this part of the quote, as I want to expand on it. Humans are still tribal by nature. We form cliques. We love clubs. We love our team vs their team. The US is embattled in a left vs right, libtards vs Nazi's battle in a way I haven't seen in my lifetime. This thread topic is one of many examples of that, along with the ones you've given.

      I think it's important to discuss these things as they come up, as it's important to recognize that marginalizing someone is easy by our nature, and it really, really sucks when you're the one getting marginalized. Nobody likes to feel small. It's not fair for men to marginalize women, and it's fair for men to not like being made into idiot caricatures and to speak out about it. It's important to make people aware that their actions can easily make someone feel small, even if they didn't mean it that way. This pod cast, and thread hopefully is a nice reminder of that.

      As large and diverse as this world is, there is no pleasing everyone, but we can all do our best to be respectful of different genders, sexualities, being a pilot vs not being a pilot, different races, etc. If I held the door for a woman who didn't think that she needed the help, or felt that I was asserting some kind of implied male dominance on her, I wouldn't react by thinking that this is an assault on men, or what's wrong with feminism. I'd be aware of the fact that I haven't walked a single step in her shoes, so if she's that fired up about that topic, there must be a lot of anger from being marginalized by men for such a length of time that she can't possibly see the good in my act. For that, I'd feel sorry for her for feeling like she needs to constantly grind an axe, and be thankful that I don't have such an axe to grind. That's checking your privilege, as as a reasonably sharp white male, something that I do.
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      Quote Originally Posted by Phillie Phanatic
      SoS - please shoot a message when Brendan & His Retarded Sycophants has another gig. Iíll be there, front row.

    5. Senior Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 10:09 PM #104
      ^ I agree 100%, but I donít like how the complaints and effects garner giant swings in doing the exact opposite to counter balance that one experience.

      Like you said, you canít understand the woman who was pissed that I held the door for her because I donít know what sheís experienced.

      But should I now not hold the door for anyone because it might offend?

      Or do I continue doing it (as I do) where 99% of the population simply sees it as a nice gesture and is ok with it and risk pissing the odd person off?

      Equally, the woman I held the door for needs to understand that my intentions may not be to marginalize or undermine her abilities or capabilities as a female. Regardless of her issue with it.

      Everyone doesnít have to be catered to. We donít live in a world of absolutes as you said. We all just need to realize that people are people. Relax.

      There will be *******s, that doesnít mean we need crusades and campaigns. You also donít need the validation of other people if you truly value what youíre doing or are passionate about it. Put your head down, keep swinging, do the thing and get what YOU want out of it.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    6. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 10:13 PM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      ...As large and diverse as this world is, there is no pleasing everyone, but we can all do our best to be respectful of different genders, sexualities, being a pilot vs not being a pilot, different races, etc. If I held the door for a woman who didn't think that she needed the help, or felt that I was asserting some kind of implied male dominance on her, I wouldn't react by thinking that this is an assault on men, or what's wrong with feminism. I'd be aware of the fact that I haven't walked a single step in her shoes, so if she's that fired up about that topic, there must be a lot of anger from being marginalized by men for such a length of time that she can't possibly see the good in my act. For that, I'd feel sorry for her for feeling like she needs to constantly grind an axe, and be thankful that I don't have such an axe to grind. That's checking your privilege, as as a reasonably sharp white male, something that I do.
      I laughed harder at that bit than I should have.

      What it boils down to for me is that I try to be nice to people. If someone doesnít appreciate it I donít sweat it. I havenít had anyone openly hostile because Iíve held a door for them, but I too will often hold the door for someone, no matter who it is. Iím not hitting on anyone, I just like to be kind to people. I make short-term friends on the elevator. Sometimes I compliment someoneís car. Iíll chat with the wait staff. Iím not changing my behavior (and see no reason to), but if someone is acidic Iíll leave them alone. Cíest la vie.
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    7. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 10:21 PM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      I laughed harder at that bit than I should have.

      What it boils down to for me is that I try to be nice to people. If someone doesnít appreciate it I donít sweat it. I havenít had anyone openly hostile because Iíve held a door for them, but I too will often hold the door for someone, no matter who it is. Iím not hitting on anyone, I just like to be kind to people. I make short-term friends on the elevator. Sometimes I compliment someoneís car. Iíll chat with the wait staff. Iím not changing my behavior (and see no reason to), but if someone is acidic Iíll leave them alone. Cíest la vie.
      I just had to include that.

      Agreed. Iím over all a pleasant person. I try to do right by people. If someone isnít having it then tomorrow Iíll wake up me and theyíll wake up pissed off at the world. Iím thankful I donít have that in my life.

      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      ^ I agree 100%, but I donít like how the complaints and effects garner giant swings in doing the exact opposite to counter balance that one experience.

      Like you said, you canít understand the woman who was pissed that I held the door for her because I donít know what sheís experienced.

      But should I now not hold the door for anyone because it might offend?

      Or do I continue doing it (as I do) where 99% of the population simply sees it as a nice gesture and is ok with it and risk pissing the odd person off?

      Equally, the woman I held the door for needs to understand that my intentions may not be to marginalize or undermine her abilities or capabilities as a female. Regardless of her issue with it.

      Everyone doesnít have to be catered to. We donít live in a world of absolutes as you said. We all just need to realize that people are people. Relax.

      There will be *******s, that doesnít mean we need crusades and campaigns. You also donít need the validation of other people if you truly value what youíre doing or are passionate about it. Put your head down, keep swinging, do the thing and get what YOU want out of it.
      Sadly the big swings are common. Humans want their pound of flesh when they can get it, and we love the eye for an eye and a taste of their own medicine routine. I didnít like being hazed but I haze pledges because if I had to deal with it they should too. Humans hate thinking itís good that someone should have it easier than they did, unless itís their own children. People staunchly defend why their situation sucked, and theyíre entitled to everything. Humans man. Weíre a trip.

      Like you said, I too wish we could all just put our heads down and move forward, but since thatís not in our nature, Iíll take slow steady and feather ruffling change.
      Driving While Awesome Podcast. Give it a listen. #TeamAkane. Donate to help a wonderful family kick cancers ass
      Quote Originally Posted by Phillie Phanatic
      SoS - please shoot a message when Brendan & His Retarded Sycophants has another gig. Iíll be there, front row.

    8. 10-09-2019 10:22 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by sirswank! View Post
      the hypocrisy is real. men: change yourself to be attractive to your desired sexual counterpart, conform or be shunned. it's your fault. women: do you, you were born strong, brave, and beautiful. never change for anyone, no matter what they say.
      Or how about you don't place your happiness in someone else's hands and be happy with the life you live on your own. You may find that women will find you more appealing if they see you're at peace and aren't going to unload all of your emotional burden onto them.

    9. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 10:56 PM #108
      I exercised my toxic masculinity tonight by elbowing my wife and daughters aside so I could unclog the drain in the bathroom they use, getting myself covered in sewer muck in the process. Put those broads in their place, donít want them trying to get in on my man work.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    10. Planters (fasciitis) peanuts. Dang dogg Sold Over Sticker's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 11:06 PM #109
      Praise Murrica Stack.
      Driving While Awesome Podcast. Give it a listen. #TeamAkane. Donate to help a wonderful family kick cancers ass
      Quote Originally Posted by Phillie Phanatic
      SoS - please shoot a message when Brendan & His Retarded Sycophants has another gig. Iíll be there, front row.

    11. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 11:31 PM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      I didnít like being hazed but I haze pledges because if I had to deal with it they should too.
      Sounds a lot like "I did not like getting molested as a child but I molest children because if I had to deal with it they should too".
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
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    12. Senior Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      10-09-2019 11:36 PM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Sounds a lot like "I did not like getting molested as a child but I molest children because if I had to deal with it they should too".

      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    13. Member mach250's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 01:16 AM #112
      Is anyone else tired of people who are worried about other peoples business? Get a hobby that doesn't include yelling at people on the internet or the walmart parking lot...
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    14. Learning New Things Every Day. GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 02:05 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I exercised my toxic masculinity tonight by elbowing my wife and daughters aside so I could unclog the drain in the bathroom they use, getting myself covered in sewer muck in the process. Put those broads in their place, donít want them trying to get in on my man work.
      the plunger is a man's tool.
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    15. You can't look at my avatar for just a second, can you? Just Another Sweater's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 03:55 AM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Sounds a lot like "I did not like getting molested as a child but I molest children because if I had to deal with it they should too".
      Dark dude

    16. Senior Member A.Wilder's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 06:37 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Itís weird now, when we go somewhere as a family Iím usually carrying the ďbabyĒ, a 35lb 2y/o. So my wife gets the door for me, cuz my arms are full. Feels weird to have her open doors for me, but makes sense. Other women do it for me too, cuz baby.
      #emasculated
      signatures are annoying, right?

    17. Member WalterGuida's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 07:06 AM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by ImpeccableNEW View Post
      Plus our boys, part of the future of our society are being left behind due to so called"toxic masculinity" we need to look out for all
      Than raise your damn kids better. The issue with most of this is due to how parents are bringing up their children. Teach your kids respect and compassion for everyone and this wont be an issue.

    18. Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 07:46 AM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Can you imagine if the roles were reversed and a guy's wife was doing a task deemed "manly" and I decided to acknowledge it and put down my wife and her friend for not changing the oil in our car? "Honey look at her go, wow MY wife never changes our oil! Hey Mike, get a load of Jeff's wife changing the oil! Wow. I WISH!"
      Just so you know, I've been in plenty of conversations where that exact thing happened. Someone asked me about my weekend, I said I had a good track day/fixed a faucet/whatever, and the guys sat around bitching that their wives were all useless because the wives did not do whatever it was that I did. It was embarrassing.
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    19. Member MolotovMan's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 07:57 AM #118
      OP- Do you rage on Islam and Islamic culture just as hard?

    20. Member sirswank!'s Avatar
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      10-10-2019 08:23 AM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by Sold Over Sticker View Post
      Oh, so we don't live in vastly different worlds like you thought we did?
      i meant i'm not sorry i don't live in your world. california sucks.

      Quote Originally Posted by beefjerky View Post
      Or how about you don't place your happiness in someone else's hands and be happy with the life you live on your own. You may find that women will find you more appealing if they see you're at peace and aren't going to unload all of your emotional burden onto them.
      lets get this out of the way... 1:these issues do not apply to me anymore, but i'm not about to let people who were like me continue to be marginalized and bullied simply because they are a convenient victim. 2: you are continuing to reinforce my point. why is it the responsibility of the person to change to fit expectations if they are male, but the expectations must change to accommodate a female?

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryukein View Post
      Lotta men in this thread being the exact kind of *******s that Katherine and the women on the podcast are talking about. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you!
      please point out when anyone try to exclude her for being female, mocked her for being so, try to mansplain what it's like being a woman in motorsport/car culture, or discredited her perspective. everything posted were counterpoints or explanations from the perspective of men (which are completely valid), and bringing them up as points of discussion doesn't make someone an *******. if you think so, maybe try some introspection and figure out why you have thoughts.

      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Just so you know, I've been in plenty of conversations where that exact thing happened. Someone asked me about my weekend, I said I had a good track day/fixed a faucet/whatever, and the guys sat around bitching that their wives were all useless because the wives did not do whatever it was that I did. It was embarrassing.
      you've probably blocked me by now, but whatever. your OP complained that you weren't taken seriously and considered not good enough. now you're complaining that you're considered too good? i'm sorry the boys in germany were so mean to you, but damn, how fine a line to people need to walk around you?

      my closing argument is this.

      there is nothing worse than an intelligent person becoming radicalized. i completely support opposing viewpoints being discussed using facts and logic, but as soon as the mob mentality talking points come out, civil discourse and reason are abandoned. they fall back on insults and accusations until they silence the opposition and claim a victory from a perceived moral high ground. it's clear that the only equality being sought is for the oppressed to become the oppressors, and retribution is levied under the veil of justice. you all complain that these "boy's clubs" exist, when TCL is the biggest "boys club" around, excluding everyone who "wrongthinks" and dares to disagree, and then you all pat each other on the back for being "on the right side of history".

      cousin eddie said it best in his rant, and that's where i'm going to leave it. anything else i say is probably too triggering for you all.
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      10-10-2019 08:44 AM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by sirswank! View Post

      my closing argument is this.
      One would need to have started with a valid argument to have a closing one.

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      10-10-2019 09:00 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Just Another Sweater View Post
      Dark dude
      I don't see any reason to bring skin color into the conversation.

    23. Member Strange Mud's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 09:07 AM #122
      I fix things and cook.
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    24. Iím not a loser. Iím a winnah!! patrikman's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 09:09 AM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by MolotovMan View Post
      OP- Do you rage on Islam and Islamic culture just as hard?
      this signature kills fascists.

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      10-10-2019 09:14 AM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      Just so you know, I've been in plenty of conversations where that exact thing happened. Someone asked me about my weekend, I said I had a good track day/fixed a faucet/whatever, and the guys sat around bitching that their wives were all useless because the wives did not do whatever it was that I did. It was embarrassing.
      The reality is, and I'm sure you know this, you're a novelty. People react differently when confronted with things they aren't expecting. I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say my wife is useless in response to hearing about a woman doing car things---but then again, I also work in an industry that has a high proportion of women. I will say it's a bit interesting when women oogle (?) a guy in front of you---I wonder what would happen if I did the same thing to a woman in front of them? Then again, I was at a meeting a couple of years ago and it was an unusual situation where I was with 3 other male colleagues (middle aged, all married). We were in a client's cafeteria and those dudes were straight up locker talking about the women in the cafeteria. Perhaps in college I would have been more comfortable with that talk, but at this point in time, it just make me really uncomfortable. I kind of wondered if the dudes thought I was a dud, no fun, gay, what have you. I consider it simply being professional, however.

    26. Member atomicalex's Avatar
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      10-10-2019 09:17 AM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by sirswank! View Post
      you've probably blocked me by now, but whatever. your OP complained that you weren't taken seriously and considered not good enough. now you're complaining that you're considered too good? i'm sorry the boys in germany were so mean to you, but damn, how fine a line to people need to walk around you?
      1. no. Not necessary.

      2. Reading comprehension much? I commented that I did not like hearing the men put down their wives, exactly the same as Cousin Eddie did not like hearing the women put down their husbands. I pointed out that the street does actually go both ways. I also get to regularly hear men put down their wives for not being particularly awesome at various traditionally women's work, such as laundry, cooking, and child care. It all sucks to hear.

      3. The Germans were never outright mean to me, but they did underestimate me a lot. That was generally funny, but sometimes, yes, it was very very icky.
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