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    1. Member
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      10-09-2019 06:37 PM #401
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      So the grand vision is to corral an unreasonable regime operating outside the law with reasonable recourse within its bounds. Brilliant. To put this in parlance you can understand, this is like trying to curb illegal gun possession by restricting access to legal gun owners. I get the feeling if Trump jumped on that train you'd be cool with that too.

      Never mind the fact that China is the monster we created. Nixon opened up trade to them, and he and every president/Congress since sat back and twiddled their thumbs as big business gutted American manufacturing and sent our jobs and IP to China for profit. And your brilliant plan to undo 4 decades of incompetence is with more incompetence- but with this time, with our chests puffed out! My apologies for remaining unswayed by your jingoistic fearmongering and blind faith in Trump
      I'd love to hear your plan, but you either don't have one or simply feel it's better to continue to close your eyes while bending over.

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    3. 10-09-2019 06:38 PM #402
      "this is like trying to curb illegal gun possession by restricting access to legal gun owners."

      Except its not. The Chinese are not following the generally accepted practice of fair trade and don't want to make adjustments about this or IP theft.

      We are exercising our legal options by raising tariffs on stuff they sell us.

      Have no clue how your example is even an equivalent analog.

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      10-09-2019 07:03 PM #403
      Quote Originally Posted by Steavis View Post
      "for seeing a problem and havinig no effective solution for it."

      He has a solution by making it more expensive for them to sell us stuff. Problem is:

      1) You don't like it and
      2) You don't have a better solution than some nebulous "we all need to get together"

      Our allies haven't done anything since the WTO to help us out.
      I don't need a solution to criticize Trump, just like Trump didn't need a solution to criticize his predecessors. I don't like his strategy because it isn't working. And our "allies" haven't done **** because Trump has spent the last 3 years antagonizing them.

      You sound like the kind of person that still believes in the war on drugs and our post 9/11 ME invasions. Better to drown with the ship than admit it's sinking I guess.

    5. 10-09-2019 07:27 PM #404
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't need a solution to criticize Trump, just like Trump didn't need a solution to criticize his predecessors. I don't like his strategy because it isn't working. And our "allies" haven't done **** because Trump has spent the last 3 years antagonizing them.

      You sound like the kind of person that still believes in the war on drugs and our post 9/11 ME invasions. Better to drown with the ship than admit it's sinking I guess.

      OK< I'll go slowly:

      1) It is working, go to any credible non-American non-fake news source and the Chinese economy is hurting hence the currency devaluation and loss of low-pay jobs to places like Vietnam.
      2) The problem has been going on for much longer than Trump, however, he is the first inside/outside America to address it.
      3) You still don't have a solution to stem the tide of Chinese hegemony

      Come back when you have a solution.

      As it is, we've lost the next tech breakthru on power storage, so there go some well-paying jobs and no one does anything more than complain about Trump's personality - Which I'd be the first to admit sucks.

      Think of it this way. If you hire an attorney to negotiate a settlement - You want the one that everyone likes and is polite and kind and gentle or do you want the a-hole that demands to get his way?
      Last edited by Steavis; 10-09-2019 at 07:33 PM.

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      10-09-2019 07:38 PM #405
      The last few posts reminded me of this


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      10-09-2019 08:00 PM #406
      Quote Originally Posted by Steavis View Post
      OK< I'll go slowly:

      1) It is working, go to any credible non-American non-fake news source and the Chinese economy is hurting hence the currency devaluation and loss of low-pay jobs to places like Vietnam.
      2) The problem has been going on for much longer than Trump, however, he is the first inside/outside America to address it.
      3) You still don't have a solution to stem the tide of Chinese hegemony

      Come back when you have a solution.

      As it is, we've lost the next tech breakthru on power storage, so there go some well-paying jobs and no one does anything more than complain about Trump's personality - Which I'd be the first to admit sucks.

      Think of it this way. If you hire an attorney to negotiate a settlement - You want the one that everyone likes and is polite and kind and gentle or do you want the a-hole that demands to get his way?
      1) has been going on much longer than Trump, so assigning credit to Trump for that is... well, to be expected from you
      3) Thanks but no thanks, you don't get to dictate the parameters of the discussion. You've built your world view on the porch of Trump's economic policy sand castle; don't cry when the tides of truth wash them out.

      And if I hire an attorney to negotiate a settlement, I don't give a **** what their temperament is. I want someone who's gonna get the job done. Not someone who throws tantrums, makes a fool of himself and weakens my position in the process. Your problem is you mistake bluster and chest thumping with getting **** done.

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      10-09-2019 08:20 PM #407
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Your problem is you ....
      ...see an authoritative, communist regime with the largest population in the world who has gone on record saying they desire the world's most powerful economy, the world's most powerful military, doesn't respect the sovereignty of others, doesn't respect the freedoms of democratic nations, doesn't respect free movement of ideas, people, and trade and you don't understand the only thing keeping them from achieving that is the United States. All because of who occupies the White House. Your focus is on the wrong enemy. How do you think they will behave when they have the world's largest economy and military??

      Still waiting on your solution to all this...

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      10-09-2019 08:56 PM #408
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      ...see an authoritative, communist regime with the largest population in the world who has gone on record saying they desire the world's most powerful economy, the world's most powerful military, doesn't respect the sovereignty of others, doesn't respect the freedoms of democratic nations, doesn't respect free movement of ideas, people, and trade and you don't understand the only thing keeping them from achieving that is the United States. All because of who occupies the White House. Your focus is on the wrong enemy. How do you think they will behave when they have the world's largest economy and military??

      Still waiting on your solution to all this...
      Just because a blind squirrel found a nut does not mean that squirrel is fit to lead the other squirrels...
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

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      10-09-2019 10:18 PM #409
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      Just because a blind squirrel found a nut does not mean that squirrel is fit to lead the other squirrels...
      Not even if the blind squirrel isn't afraid to tell it like it is and trigger all the snowflakes?

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      10-09-2019 10:19 PM #410
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      ...see an authoritative, communist regime with the largest population in the world who has gone on record saying they desire the world's most powerful economy, the world's most powerful military, doesn't respect the sovereignty of others, doesn't respect the freedoms of democratic nations, doesn't respect free movement of ideas, people, and trade and you don't understand the only thing keeping them from achieving that is the United States. All because of who occupies the White House. Your focus is on the wrong enemy. How do you think they will behave when they have the world's largest economy and military??

      Still waiting on your solution to all this...
      Yadda yadda yadda armchair John Bolton. You don't have a solution either; you are just piggybacking your daddy's hairbrained schemes.

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      10-09-2019 10:21 PM #411
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      I'd love to hear your plan, but you either don't have one or simply feel it's better to continue to close your eyes while bending over.
      Like I said, I'm no trade expert so I don't have a plan. That's something Trump and I have in common actually. You don't have to be a doctor to know that cutting off your arm with a chainsaw is a bad idea though. You talk about all the pain China's economy is feeling... have you factored in our resultant manufacturing and agriculture slowdowns in your calculus? Etc. It's a complete joke.

    13. 10-09-2019 10:27 PM #412
      "Thanks but no thanks, you don't get to dictate the parameters of the discussion."

      I have no clue what that means. I'd like to think I have as many rights as yourself. Having no solutions means you don't get to dictate whether another solution is bad. It's like critiquing something you don't understand.

      I was merely explaining why you're incorrect in your assumptions. Kinda hard to argue when you don't have a point besides saying no.

      Listening to diverse thoughts when you have none might help you grow
      Last edited by Steavis; 10-09-2019 at 10:58 PM.

    14. 10-09-2019 10:33 PM #413
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      1) has been going on much longer than Trump, so assigning credit to Trump for that is... well, to be expected from you
      3) Thanks but no thanks, you don't get to dictate the parameters of the discussion. You've built your world view on the porch of Trump's economic policy sand castle; don't cry when the tides of truth wash them out.

      And if I hire an attorney to negotiate a settlement, I don't give a **** what their temperament is. I want someone who's gonna get the job done. Not someone who throws tantrums, makes a fool of himself and weakens my position in the process. Your problem is you mistake bluster and chest thumping with getting **** done.
      "Your problem is you mistake bluster and chest thumping with getting **** done."

      And your problem is you fail to acknowledge:

      1) The EU and NAFTA adjusted tariffs to be fair (i.e. = to what we charge them)
      2) We've actually recognized that the Chinese are an existential threat
      3) We've taken action which has affected the Chinese and if you took 2 minutes, you'd realize tanking your currency and watching a real estate bubble blow is not good
      4) The Chinese sell us 5* what we sell them. Any tariffs hurt them 5x as much
      5) And you have no solution beyond admitting you have no solution which invalidates most of your other posturing. I understood you had no solution the first time you said it.
      6) Saying you don't like something without an alternative is futility itself isn't it?
      &) You know that if you don't get service you like at a dealer, being an a-hole gets you a lot further than being a shrinking violet

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      10-10-2019 02:11 AM #414
      Quote Originally Posted by Steavis View Post
      4) The Chinese sell us 5* what we sell them. Any tariffs hurt them 5x as much
      The Chinese have imposed high tariffs on US goods but reduced tariffs on EU and other countries’ goods being imported into China. This is a double whammy on US exports to China (mainly farm goods and transportation products).

      The companies moving production out of China to places like Vietnam were already starting that before Trump as labor costs in China have been rising for years. So low cost items like clothing and shoe production have been moving out of China. More complicated products like electronics aren’t so easy to move.

    16. 10-10-2019 07:20 AM #415
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      As the past... 3 years?... have shown, clearly not tariffs.

      A key hallmark of great leadership is the ability to admit a mistake and move on. The trade gap with China reached record levels last year.



      I mean, isn't our goal total global economic domination too? I get that we have to root for our side, and I am for democracy over whatever the **** China has going on, but you can't throw stones in a glass house unless you're cool with breaking your own windows. Why bitch about China's play for dominance and subjugation while we partner with savory upstanding global citizens like Saudi Arabia and Israel Holding others to a higher standard than you hold yourself is textbook hypocrisy.

      And like I said I am all for addressing trade issues with China. I just don't see why we have to stick with 1 strategy that a) doesn't even address most of the issues we have with them and more importantly b) doesn't even work in its limited scope.
      Thank you, the USA is hardly a victim as some posters would have us believe. China's atrocities and meddling in foreign affairs do not compare with the last 100 years of USA's attempts at strategically planned global domination. Thus far China has been relatively benign globally but Western and Western backed powers fear any potential challenge to their hegemony.

      By dint of their military bases jotted throughout the world, the USA is aggressive and poses a threat to China. There is no way that the USA would allow the Chinese to encircle the country in any similar form nor for the Chinese to patrol American waters and perform military exercises on their doorstep.

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      10-10-2019 07:40 AM #416
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      .... have you factored in our resultant manufacturing and agriculture slowdowns in your calculus? Etc. It's a complete joke.
      They slowed down the day China was allowed entry into the WTO and began their 2 decade journey of not abiding by the laws, rules and regs all other countries abide by. We lost millions jobs in this country to China/elsewhere starting 20 years ago because of this. I've been tracking this for over 12 yrs now. All you see is what's happening to the day Trump began the tariffs but don't have a clue about the 20 years prior. Educate yourself first, then comment. China has not abided by every single labor, environmental, income agreement they signed off on when it came to the manufacturing/factory employment sections of those WTO contractual terms. When we pushed jobs to China they were moved under a certain set of contractual terms determined to keep wages up and labor standards to a certain level, none of them ever enforced by the Chinese. Read the article below and anything from Clinton's own Robert Reich on what was expected, and what really happened. Those 250k person Foxconn tech factories with workers pushing 12 hrs a day, 6 days a week go against every labor agreement in the WTO standards.

      https://www.epi.org/publication/bp188/

      ^^^one of many similar articles that points out the long term issues. If not from Trump, tariffs and or sanctions were going to happen sooner or later. Maybe we should have waited for a POTUS you like to enact that? And for the record, Obama slapped tariffs on China too, many presidents have. Obama spent much of his 8 yrs trying to balance China/US relations to keep them in check. With mixed results.

      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...-relationship/

      Quote Originally Posted by chopWet View Post
      Thank you, the USA is hardly a victim as some posters would have us believe.
      On this topic of global trade, the US plays within the rules, China does not. One is a free democratic nation, the other is an authoritarian, communist dictatorship. Point is, they asked to be part of a global trade agreement and haven't lived up to 20 yrs of contractual terms on those agreements. That is the focus.
      Last edited by tbvvw; 10-10-2019 at 07:54 AM.

    18. 10-10-2019 07:59 AM #417
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      So the grand vision is to corral an unreasonable regime operating outside the law with reasonable recourse within its bounds. Brilliant. To put this in parlance you can understand, this is like trying to curb illegal gun possession by restricting access to legal gun owners. I get the feeling if Trump jumped on that train you'd be cool with that too.

      Never mind the fact that China is the monster we created. Nixon opened up trade to them, and he and every president/Congress since sat back and twiddled their thumbs as big business gutted American manufacturing and sent our jobs and IP to China for profit. And your brilliant plan to undo 4 decades of incompetence is with more incompetence- but with this time, with our chests puffed out! My apologies for remaining unswayed by your jingoistic fearmongering and blind faith in Trump
      This is the truth and it has cost the world, governments all over the globe failed to protect local industries and instead allowed businessmen to run things for maximum profits and that has turned our great. Developing economies in particular have been truly gutted by this relocation but that is a failing of local governments and greed, you can't only blame China.

      Accusing China of not playing by the rules is genuinely hilarious when it comes from the Americans and their insistence on constantly meddling in global affairs that have nothing to do with them. The overthrowing legitimate regimes, such as Mosaddegh, and the resulting aftermath we now have to deal with is particularly problematic.

    19. 10-10-2019 08:15 AM #418
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      They slowed down the day China was allowed entry into the WTO and began their 2 decade journey of not abiding by the laws, rules and regs all other countries abide by. We lost millions jobs in this country to China/elsewhere starting 20 years ago because of this. I've been tracking this for over 12 yrs now. All you see is what's happening to the day Trump began the tariffs but don't have a clue about the 20 years prior. Educate yourself first, then comment. China has not abided by every single labor, environmental, income agreement they signed off on when it came to the manufacturing/factory employment sections of those WTO contractual terms. When we pushed jobs to China they were moved under a certain set of contractual terms determined to keep wages up and labor standards to a certain level, none of them ever enforced by the Chinese. Read the article below and anything from Clinton's own Robert Reich on what was expected, and what really happened. Those 250k person Foxconn tech factories with workers pushing 12 hrs a day, 6 days a week go against every labor agreement in the WTO standards.

      https://www.epi.org/publication/bp188/

      ^^^one of many similar articles that points out the long term issues. If not from Trump, tariffs and or sanctions were going to happen sooner or later. Maybe we should have waited for a POTUS you like to enact that? And for the record, Obama slapped tariffs on China too, many presidents have. Obama spent much of his 8 yrs trying to balance China/US relations to keep them in check. With mixed results.

      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...-relationship/



      On this topic of global trade, the US plays within the rules, China does not. One is a free democratic nation, the other is an authoritarian, communist dictatorship. Point is, they asked to be part of a global trade agreement and haven't lived up to 20 yrs of contractual terms on those agreements. That is the focus.
      Yet despite knowing all of this and there being hard evidence, the USA government allowed American business to take advantage of these conditions and to increase their profits and to shift ever increasing amounts of manfacturing to China.

      Now that the Chinese are starting to pay their workers more and thus eat into American profits, the American companies are moving to Vietnam, Cambodia etc. (the poverty in both those countries and all the desperate people willing to work in terrible conditions a direct result of American violence inflicted on those populations) - the cycle will be repeated.

      Also don't fool yourself, 'democracy' as violently forced down the world's throat by the USA is a farce that allows money to maintain power in its own interests and not in best the interests of the common people.

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      10-10-2019 08:19 AM #419
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      They slowed down the day China was allowed entry into the WTO and began their 2 decade journey of not abiding by the laws, rules and regs all other countries abide by. We lost millions jobs in this country to China/elsewhere starting 20 years ago because of this. I've been tracking this for over 12 yrs now. All you see is what's happening to the day Trump began the tariffs but don't have a clue about the 20 years prior. Educate yourself first, then comment. China has not abided by every single labor, environmental, income agreement they signed off on when it came to the manufacturing/factory employment sections of those WTO contractual terms. When we pushed jobs to China they were moved under a certain set of contractual terms determined to keep wages up and labor standards to a certain level, none of them ever enforced by the Chinese. Read the article below and anything from Clinton's own Robert Reich on what was expected, and what really happened. Those 250k person Foxconn tech factories with workers pushing 12 hrs a day, 6 days a week go against every labor agreement in the WTO standards.

      https://www.epi.org/publication/bp188/

      ^^^one of many similar articles that points out the long term issues. If not from Trump, tariffs and or sanctions were going to happen sooner or later. Maybe we should have waited for a POTUS you like to enact that? And for the record, Obama slapped tariffs on China too, many presidents have. Obama spent much of his 8 yrs trying to balance China/US relations to keep them in check. With mixed results.

      https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/...-relationship/
      When have I ever said China has abided by international trade law?

      I am in agreement that we have to address China's trade violations. I just don't agree with how Trump is doing it. He has alienated the allies we need to help put the pressure on China that they will capitulate to. He has weakened our economic position and various key sectors. He's weakened our overall global trade position- not just in China, but across the globe by his mismanagement of key trade agreements that have gone into effect. He has undermined and disregarded the very WTO you are crying that China does not respect. He has made zero inroads in negotiations. How many years do we have to give Trump before we can say his way hasn't worked?

      If you're just gonna make up the viewpoints of people you disagree with why even bother having the discussion? I'm gonna end our exchange here. I hope for our country's sake you are right, but the fact that you can't even parse viewpoints presented in black and white suggests otherwise. Have a good day

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      10-10-2019 08:27 AM #420
      Quote Originally Posted by chopWet View Post
      Also don't fool yourself....
      Different subject altogether. Stick to the topic of global trade and how we operate within those rules, regs, laws and China is the only other country within the WTO agreements that does not.

      Take this article for example:

      https://fortune.com/2019/03/01/china-ip-theft/

      If this was done by US firms they would be held accountable and sued in courts in multiple jurisdictions.
      In China, the government protects their own companies and does not allow them to be punished for these illegal activities. And much of that IP is US military/security information.

      My bank encounters over 50K hacking attempts from China to either shut us down or steal our data each and every 24 hrs, 365 day a year for 10+ years now. All sanctioned and approved by their government.
      Their own population would know more about this behavior, but they censor their internet so no google search would show this. Fun stuff.

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      10-10-2019 08:45 AM #421
      So, um, guys. Does anyone have an update on Saudi oil production?

    23. 10-10-2019 09:44 AM #422
      "Does anyone have an update on Saudi oil production?"

      Non-event. We've grown our production capacity so that Saudi's lose half their oil its a week-long price blip to us and then back to normal.

      Maybe there is something to being self-sustaining and producing our own oil.

    24. 10-10-2019 10:41 AM #423
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      When have I ever said China has abided by international trade law?

      I am in agreement that we have to address China's trade violations. I just don't agree with how Trump is doing it. He has alienated the allies we need to help put the pressure on China that they will capitulate to. He has weakened our economic position and various key sectors. He's weakened our overall global trade position- not just in China, but across the globe by his mismanagement of key trade agreements that have gone into effect. He has undermined and disregarded the very WTO you are crying that China does not respect. He has made zero inroads in negotiations. How many years do we have to give Trump before we can say his way hasn't worked?

      If you're just gonna make up the viewpoints of people you disagree with why even bother having the discussion? I'm gonna end our exchange here. I hope for our country's sake you are right, but the fact that you can't even parse viewpoints presented in black and white suggests otherwise. Have a good day
      ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????

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      10-10-2019 10:49 AM #424
      Quote Originally Posted by SoTxBill View Post
      ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ???????????????????????????????????????????
      You forget your meds again?
      Or is it just your lack of education that causes the reading comprehension issues?
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

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      10-10-2019 10:58 AM #425
      Quote Originally Posted by Smigelski View Post
      So, um, guys. Does anyone have an update on Saudi oil production?
      Saudi Aramco says full oil production capacity will return by end of November

      “By September we will be, in terms of production capacity, at 11.3 (million barrels per day), by end of November we will be at 12 million barrels per day (bdp), which is our maximum sustained capacity,” Nasser told CNBC’s Steve Sedgwick during the Oil & Money Conference in London. Saudi Arabia is the world’s largest exporter of oil.

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