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    1. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      09-11-2019 11:54 AM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by 88c900t View Post
      This is, of course, stupid since a new Ford Expedition is cleaner than a 5 year old Yaris. Are they saying a Tesla X or PHEV Outlander is bad but a diesel Renault Clio (or ancient 2CV) is ok?
      As is common with Uber threads, the thread title doesn't necessarily jive with the article.

      FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Climate groups, including Greenpeace and Deutsche Umwelthilfe, called on Monday for sport-utility vehicles to be banned as part of a wider campaign to curb pollution by the auto industry.

      Carmakers should stop developing large, heavy cars and vehicles with internal combustion engines, the “Exit” consortium said at a news conference on the eve of the Frankfurt auto show.

      “As long as SUVs rather than small electric vehicles dominate automotive transport, cars will remain the problem child for us climate activists,” the consortium said.

      In a debate with the lead spokeswoman from “Sand in the Gearbox” - a coalition of activists who see the automobile as an outmoded form of transport and called for a boycott of the show -
      The group in question is calling for a Frankfurt Auto Show boycott to support ending the development and promotion of ICE SUVs. They see ICE SUV availability as a barrier to adoption of EVs.

      They're right that people will buy ICE SUVs if they're still available. VW's right that that's due to market forces; people are buying what they prefer. You're right that PHEV and EV SUVs are the solution. Despite the wording I'm not sure they want to ban PHEV SUVs (it's Greenpeace though so who tf knows), though it is worth pointing out even among (PH)EVs, taller SUVs with larger frontal areas and more weight are less efficient than car EVs.

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    3. Member
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      09-11-2019 12:19 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      They better hope that other nations keep buying and burning their oil, or the whole system won't sustain.
      Norway has a healthy and well-educated populace and has been smart to invest wisely from their oil revenues to think long-term. This isn't the war-torn Norway from the 40's and 50's

    4. Member smoothsix's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 12:24 PM #78
      Having just bought a diesel x5,

      BRING ON THE BAN! I GOT MINE! PULL THE LADDER UP!
      Dash cam people suck. Don't be a dash cam person.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dravenport View Post
      this thread is a mess, I can't tell if it's full of trolls or idiots and I'm not sure it matters

    5. Junior Member
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      09-11-2019 12:36 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      Ever read the GND? It's an entire restructuring of our lives.
      Yeah, I have read the green new deal, nothing in there scares me. Have you read it?

      Since we are in on the subject of reading, did you read any of the scientific literature about what will happen past 2+ Celsius warming? ****s gonna get painful, going to be 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x more expensive than if we started now.

    6. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 12:41 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by loyfah View Post
      Yeah, I have read the green new deal, nothing in there scares me. Have you read it?

      Since we are in on the subject of reading, did you read any of the scientific literature about what will happen past 2+ Celsius warming? ****s gonna get painful, going to be 2x, 3x, 4x, 5x more expensive than if we started now.
      I'm not really a Green New Deal supporter (although I support some aspects), but there was a ridiculous amount of misinformation and fake versions floating out there. People believe all sorts of crazy things about it.

    7. Junior Member
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      09-11-2019 12:44 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      How exactly is your country financing that green lifestyle again?

      Oh, right.... sucking the earth dry of fossil fuels and selling them to other people who will burn them.

      Not really much ground to stand your condescension on.
      Totally agree, my country produces oil and sells it to the highest bidder. But we don't go to afganistan and blame the poppy farmer for the heroin addiction, do we?


      We have leaders that acknowledge climate change. plans, and projects on how to fight it. We can't do much, but the will is there.

    8. Junior Member
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      09-11-2019 12:47 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I'm not really a Green New Deal supporter (although I support some aspects), but there was a ridiculous amount of misinformation and fake versions floating out there. People believe all sorts of crazy things about it.
      Yeah, it's strange, the conservatives talk about fake news a lot, but they are also a big consumer of it.

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      09-11-2019 12:48 PM #83
      SUV haters unite: Climate activist groups call for SUVs to be banned...

      RS6 Avants for everyone!

    10. Member Uber Wagon's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 12:49 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by smoothsix View Post
      Having just bought a diesel x5,

      BRING ON THE BAN! I GOT MINE! PULL THE LADDER UP!
      Last edited by Uber Wagon; 09-11-2019 at 01:08 PM.
      Beer: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

    11. Member
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      09-11-2019 12:51 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I'm not really a Green New Deal supporter (although I support some aspects), but there was a ridiculous amount of misinformation and fake versions floating out there. People believe all sorts of crazy things about it.
      A lot of it stems from the extreme dislike these opponents hold towards AOC. Pretty irrational if you ask me.

    12. Junior Member
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      09-11-2019 12:54 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      They better hope that other nations keep buying and burning their oil, or the whole system won't sustain.
      It's great that you are so informed on my countries governmental budgets! Please, tell us all how much of oil income is used on green initiatives, tell me more, please!

    13. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 12:58 PM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by DUBPL8 View Post
      A lot of it stems from the extreme dislike these opponents hold towards AOC. Pretty irrational if you ask me.
      It's rational in a grand strategic sense. A big part of the Republican strategy has been to paint the Democrats as all hard-left socialists. They were working hard to make AOC the face of the party, and to make her positions seem far more extreme than they actually are. Then, when Biden gets the nomination, they will tell people that what he "really" wants is communism, gun confiscation, and the murder of all fetuses (and/or he's a senile old man controlled by AOC).

    14. Senior Member LT1M21Stingray's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 01:01 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      SUV haters unite: Climate activist groups call for SUVs to be banned...

      RS6 Avants for everyone!
      553 bhp of eco-friendly V8 fun to get rid of all the your ecoanxiety in one sweet package!
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Madness
      Back when making your car faster and better handling was the big thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tavarish
      The car's best safety feature includes ejecting you in the moment of impact and wishing you the best of luck.
      Buy my couch!

    15. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 01:21 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by DUBPL8 View Post
      A lot of it stems from the extreme dislike these opponents hold towards AOC. Pretty irrational if you ask me.
      As always, there's plenty of irrationality, straw men, political haymaking, and outright lies to go around. Yes, that means on both sides. It always has been (although it's elevated no compared to some years ago) and always will be.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    16. Member
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      09-11-2019 02:07 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      It's rational in a grand strategic sense. A big part of the Republican strategy has been to paint the Democrats as all hard-left socialists. They were working hard to make AOC the face of the party, and to make her positions seem far more extreme than they actually are. Then, when Biden gets the nomination, they will tell people that what he "really" wants is communism, gun confiscation, and the murder of all fetuses (and/or he's a senile old man controlled by AOC).
      Excellent point my man

    17. Member
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      09-11-2019 03:12 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by loyfah View Post
      Agree it is irresponsible of Germany to phase out nuclear energy, the extra CO2 emissions this will create is something green youth organisations and groups like Greenpeace should fully carry on their backs. At the moment USA is not feeling to perky either, rolling back emission control and other forms of regulations just for funsies ? And dont forget, green groups that would endorse candidates as Elizabeth and Bernie also hate wind turbines and hydroelectric power ! so basically they dont want Nuclear, wind or Hydro ! The best solotions for lowering CO2 emissions.
      When they phased it out they had to open up their entire inventory of coal plants to bridge the gap, and now coal in Germany provides 38% of its power needs. And while I recently read that they plan to phase out coal entirely over the next 19-20 years, they never want to admit that wind/solar simply cannot power their whole country alone and it will take one or the other (coal/nuclear) to sufficiently power their people and manufacturing needs.

      Maybe the Max-Planck Institute for Plasma Physics will have that nuclear fusion reactor working in the next 20 years....

    18. Member
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      09-11-2019 03:25 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by loyfah View Post
      Yeah, I have read the green new deal, nothing in there scares me. Have you read it?
      I've read it. The cost scares the absolute S___ out of me, and for no guarantee that anything improves in return. It would be the most expensive project in world history, asking those that "have" to reach deep into their pockets to foot the bill. No thank you. The thought of having 100% clean, renewable energy in the US by 2030 - is a fairy tale. Forcing that one point alone would sink our entire economy.

      Tell you what, have California enact it on its own and see what happens to their economy when the capital, both personal in business leaves in droves. Therein lies the problem, no rational human buys into becoming a radical environmentalist at the cost of their own financial well being.

      How about we start with planting 3-4X the amount of trees and cut beef consumption in half. That would be a good first start. (and something scientists promote as an excellent first start)
      Last edited by tbvvw; 09-11-2019 at 03:38 PM.

    19. Member aging_fleet's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 03:36 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      How about we start with planting 3-4X the amount of trees and cut beef consumption in half. That would be a good first start. (and something scientists promote as an excellent first start)
      Now you're talking.

    20. Junior Member
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      09-11-2019 03:54 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      I've read it. The cost scares the absolute S___ out of me, and for no guarantee that anything improves in return. It would be the most expensive project in world history, asking those that "have" to reach deep into their pockets to foot the bill. No thank you. The thought of having 100% clean, renewable energy in the US by 2030 - is a fairy tale. Forcing that one point alone would sink our entire economy.

      Tell you what, have California enact it on its own and see what happens to their economy when the capital, both personal in business leaves in droves. Therein lies the problem, no rational human buys into becoming a radical environmentalist at the cost of their own financial well being.

      How about we start with planting 3-4X the amount of trees and cut beef consumption in half. That would be a good first start. (and something scientists promote as an excellent first start)
      too bad the world is hell bent on burning or cutting down large swaths of trees and wanting to increase beef consumption .

    21. Member
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      09-11-2019 04:12 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      How about we start with planting 3-4X the amount of trees and cut beef consumption in half. That would be a good first start. (and something scientists promote as an excellent first start)
      That is too logical, it'll never work, just like having a function train systems vs building hyperloops.

    22. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 04:39 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      So basically I live my life in a way that reflects we need to help the environment; I don't burn a lot of gas, I live in a small house with highly efficient HVAC and appliances, I don't fly that often, we recycle, etc etc. But because I'm not out there yelling about the environment, I get less credibility than guys like Gore and Obama and Leo that live like they DON'T need to save the environment, but yell that we do. Again, hypocrisy. And let's face it, "carbon credits" are just modern-day indulgences.

      Where that puts me, I don't know. Live cleanly, but let's not be ridiculous. And if you think something is truly a problem, act that way, or I think society should completely write you off.
      You think climate change is a manufactured crisis that really isn't that big of a deal, but is being misrepresented as a coordinated effort by the (liberal) scientific community for the purposes of taking away your freedom (via regulation and taxes), and you're lamenting the fact that recycling and a short commute don't give you more credibility in the climate change discussion than a Vice President, President, and a movie star? JFC, Stack.

      It puts you in a place where you know we're causing serious problems, and that we need to do something, and take some steps yourself, but you feel the ideological need to avoid acknowledging any problem that may require government intervention to solve or mitigate. Instead, you latch on to any source that justifies your ideology (far right climate change denial blog cited earlier) and imagine anyone on the other side of the argument is a hypocrite.

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      09-11-2019 04:46 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      cut beef consumption in half.
      Now you crossed the line!

      Can't wait for dinner today, steak.

    24. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 04:51 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      You think climate change is a manufactured crisis that really isn't that big of a deal,
      I mean, we've been 10 years away from climate-related disaster basically my whole life. I'm 37.

      but is being misrepresented as a coordinated effort by the (liberal) scientific community for the purposes of taking away your freedom (via regulation and taxes),
      I'd say more it's being hijacked by leftist politicians, yes

      and you're lamenting the fact that recycling and a short commute don't give you more credibility in the climate change discussion than a Vice President, President, and a movie star? JFC, Stack.
      I'm just saying, it's odd that someone who lives in a way that mostly minimizes environmental impact but isn't a fan of forcing that on others is on the "wrong side" of the debate compared to people who are the other way around. Don't you find that odd? That Joe Sixpack is yelled at for his F-150 instead of a Prius that he drives 12k miles a year by people who fly on private jets at the drop of the hat?

      It puts you in a place where you know we're causing serious problems, and that we need to do something, and take some steps yourself, but you feel the ideological need to avoid acknowledging any problem that may require government intervention to solve or mitigate. Instead, you latch on to any source that justifies your ideology (far right climate change denial blog cited earlier) and imagine anyone on the other side of the argument is a hypocrite.
      Well, generally the other side IS a hypocritical! Ever heard of the term limousine liberal? I didn't dream it up.

      It's also not so much that I am opposed to the policies, it's that I don't trust the government not to **** it up worse, or to hijack the issue and try to leverage into overreach. Hell, it's telling that we are in such a crisis, but the "best" solution is CAFE instead of a gas tax; CAFE mostly punishes upper middle class suburban people who buy SUVs, but isn't nearly as effective as a gas tax that would hurt poor people (democratic voters). I mean, if it was a REAL crisis, it would be no matter the cost, not "Welllllll, let's put in place policies that only people we don't like have to absorb."
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    25. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 05:14 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      I'm just saying, it's odd that someone who lives in a way that mostly minimizes environmental impact but isn't a fan of forcing that on others is on the "wrong side" of the debate compared to people who are the other way around. Don't you find that odd? That Joe Sixpack is yelled at for his F-150 instead of a Prius that he drives 12k miles a year by people who fly on private jets at the drop of the hat?
      You're on the wrong side of the debate because you don't understand the need for large-scale change. That's both at a personal level and industrial level. But actually you do understand it, you just would rather do nothing because you think the government can't be trusted. So while you're taking a great first step in your personal life by recycling, there's a lot more needed than that at a macro level. And realistically speaking, who is yelling at Joe Sixpack, aside from a tiny minority of extremely militant environmentalists? People are "yelling" at Ford and the other automakers to make vehicles that pollute less. They're "yelling" at the companies that exploit the environment for profit. I live in smug Tesla driver heaven, and I've never encountered anyone actually giving someone a hard time for driving a gas guzzler. Nobody gives two ****s about whether you personally drive a Jeep or a Prius. They care about making sure the industry as a whole is getting cleaner.

      The Private Jet thing is just lazy criticism. It would be great if nobody had to travel anywhere to help drive progress, but not everything can be done electronically. If a bunch of people fly into a summit and their effort leads to positive change, that's a net benefit despite the fact that they burned fossil fuels to attend. If Leo produces X carbon to go fly somewhere and the result is an overall reduction of >X, that's not hypocrisy. That's effective use of his time and energy.

    26. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      09-11-2019 05:21 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      The Private Jet thing is just lazy criticism. It would be great if nobody had to travel anywhere to help drive progress, but not everything can be done electronically. If a bunch of people fly into a summit and their effort leads to positive change, that's a net benefit despite the fact that they burned fossil fuels to attend. If Leo produces X carbon to go fly somewhere and the result is an overall reduction of >X, that's not hypocrisy. That's effective use of his time and energy.
      You've fully bought into the "four legs good, two legs better" and "all animals are equal but some are more equal than others", I see.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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