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    1. 09-08-2019 02:12 AM #26
      Lexus should try a high end full size that is squarish like a g wagon with a sumptous interior ,it will probabaly sell

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      09-08-2019 09:30 AM #27
      Automotive press dislikes luxury cars. Many brands are stuck in the performance trap. Not a good situation for the buying public.

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      09-08-2019 09:37 AM #28
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      Despite exploiting cheap labour from millions of destitute foreign workers



      Japan as a country is a corporate entity and its real owners will never let Japan make any profit.
      Dept chart.
      I am not a finance guy or I would be retired.

      What does that mean or imply?
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      09-08-2019 10:19 AM #29
      Quote Originally Posted by Meroving1an View Post
      I find this difficult to believe based on the sheer numbers of UX/NX/RX I see around here.
      I'm guessing the R&D plus marketing budget puts the brand in the red.

      That said it's still shocking Lexus lacks a third row crossover that isn't a slap job RX+ or an old BOF SUV.

    6. 09-08-2019 10:23 AM #30
      I flat out do not believe the journo’s claim. Clickbait / sensationalism.

      Even if true, I believe it would be a scandalous claim that doesn’t present the full picture. (I.e. major R&D costs attributed to a single weak year).

      The purpose is to get everyone bickering over Lexus products, and it’s apparently working on the sheep, I just hope it does not result on more abandonment of their quality vehicles and a reliance on crossovers. I personally believe that the crossover fad is temporary and will eventually result in a Mean design layout centered around sportback sedans like the A7, Arteon, stinger, etc. easy to lift up, or extend the roofline to add perceived utility or the opposite for formality or sport. At the very least, the crossover overlap will shake out several models amongst most brands.

    7. 09-08-2019 10:32 AM #31
      Quote Originally Posted by cpermd View Post
      I am not a finance guy or I would be retired.

      What does that mean or imply?
      It’s a cheap shot at Japan, and it’s nationalistic pride. Japan is indeed aging, and there is a growing, but small amounts of mainly Koreans working there, but industry is still majority Produced by ethnically Japanese personnel. Japanese conglomerates were globally traded before globally owned was a thing. Global markets dictating their product lines is a reflection of their success and competition) I.e. Toyota products, Sony products, etc)

      And finance isn’t a “retire early” profession. It will save your knees for retirement though.

    8. 09-08-2019 10:34 AM #32
      Quote Originally Posted by ImpeccableNEW View Post
      Lexus should try a high end full size that is squarish like a g wagon with a sumptous interior ,it will probabaly sell
      Yeah, Toyota megacruiser.

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      09-08-2019 12:03 PM #33
      Quote Originally Posted by ImpeccableNEW View Post
      Lexus should try a high end full size that is squarish like a g wagon with a sumptous interior ,it will probabaly sell
      Maybe some kind of off roading SUV that shares a platform with a legendary offroad vehicle, well known for its reliability and high resale?

      They should definitely think about one of those.

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      09-08-2019 12:06 PM #34
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX View Post
      Not enough Japanese workers? How is that possible for a country with 150 million?

      Can you tell me how much it takes to produce a Lexus LC-500? Were the stamping sheet metal molds of the design millions of dollars to produce? At the end of the day you dont what costs what without seeing the books, that includes what Toyota has to pay in tax and loan interests.

      And what are these regulations... produce over 100k cars of a model and they have to all be stubby and appliance like?
      You might actually be intellectually delayed.

      Maybe try reading informative publications instead of conspiracy websites.

      To answer your first point (I don't know why I'm bothering), Japan's birthrate has been staggeringly low for the past 30-40 years. Moreover, it has some of the most restrictive immigration rules of any country on earth. As a result, the WORKING AGE population as a share of the total population is shrinking. This is doubly troublesome for the vast number of retirees in Japan, who rely upon taxes paid by WORKING AGE individuals to cover their pensions and benefits.

      Japan's solution to the labor shortage is institute a guest worker program.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
      this is due to your inexperience with performance driving . . . you really do have to take a car to a performance driving event, track day, autocross, ice race etc to get a feel for how a car actually performs. and you have to have the knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate the car in such a way as to get it and keep it at the edge.

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      09-08-2019 12:07 PM #35
      Quote Originally Posted by cpermd View Post
      I am not a finance guy or I would be retired.

      What does that mean or imply?
      Nothing. It's VigorousZX. For years we thought he was a troll. Now we are pretty sure he's a mentally shunted conspiracy theorist who lives in a van (Seriously).
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
      this is due to your inexperience with performance driving . . . you really do have to take a car to a performance driving event, track day, autocross, ice race etc to get a feel for how a car actually performs. and you have to have the knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate the car in such a way as to get it and keep it at the edge.

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      09-08-2019 12:08 PM #36
      I don't know the numbers, but over here we rarely see the new RX and ES, imagine the LS...

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      09-08-2019 12:12 PM #37
      In response to the OP, anything is possible. I do not think that Lexus is in dire straights. Many of the products are late in the cycle and/or left on the vine to die. I see new Lexuses everywhere, but my personal experience is not statistically significant.

      I has an ES350 Uber recently and I was seriously impressed with how nice the interior is. I still can't get over the Predator grill and the lack of high-power turbocharged engines in their "F" series cars. But from a product quality/fit and finish perspective, their cars are really, really nice.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk
      this is due to your inexperience with performance driving . . . you really do have to take a car to a performance driving event, track day, autocross, ice race etc to get a feel for how a car actually performs. and you have to have the knowledge and skill to be able to manipulate the car in such a way as to get it and keep it at the edge.

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      09-08-2019 01:14 PM #38
      Quote Originally Posted by cpermd View Post
      I am not a finance guy or I would be retired.

      What does that mean or imply?
      I am a finance guy. I’m not retired.


      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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      09-08-2019 01:15 PM #39
      I will be a Lexus fan until the end, but I have to agree they are pretty stagnant lately.

      Have not agreed with their "make it sporty and luxurious" approach, I think they should have just kept cranking out silent, wafting, comfortable vehicle instead of trying to go after the germans and their autobahn pedigrees.

      The new ES though, is the first car I really like from them in quite some time. Haven't had drive time in it, but the exterior design is slightly toned down and the interior is fantastic.

      I have been an LS super fan for 20+ years, but their design language is not winning me over on the new LS. I still like it, but I don't LOVE it.
      The interior is nice, but the exterior needs to be a but more understated. Some people say this is the companys way of making it "More Japanese" rather more American like it was originally designed after, but I don't know if that will be appealing to the long time buyers.

      p4c







    16. 09-08-2019 01:38 PM #40
      Quote Originally Posted by cpermd View Post
      I am not a finance guy or I would be retired.

      What does that mean or imply?
      Japan has been pumping out millions of cars a year, for many decades, even for war time profiteering as 9 out of 10 ISIS members prefer them over other makes.
      But what should boggle the mind is that when a car is the second most expensive thing, next to a house, that a person can purchase, how is it that Japan is second and many folds in debt to all the other nations in the world?

      What have they been spending all the 12 trillion on? Who lent out 12 trillion to Japan when every nation is in debt?

      It basically comes down to the fact that Japan was never given back to the Japanese... its a shell state with shell companies like Toyota.
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    17. 09-08-2019 02:04 PM #41
      Quote Originally Posted by DanTSX View Post
      It’s a cheap shot at Japan, and it’s nationalistic pride. Japan is indeed aging, and there is a growing, but small amounts of mainly Koreans working there, but industry is still majority Produced by ethnically Japanese personnel. Japanese conglomerates were globally traded before globally owned was a thing. Global markets dictating their product lines is a reflection of their success and competition) I.e. Toyota products, Sony products, etc)

      And finance isn’t a “retire early” profession. It will save your knees for retirement though.
      Ive read that Japan historically used temporary workers from destitute countries like out of Africa to build cars. After exploiting them and their own people where working to death has been highlighted, how is it Japan racked up 12 trillion in debt?

      And how many millions does the auto industry need at work? Are you telling me that out of 150 million people there's a shortage of people who don't want to get exploited like the millions of immigrants that do? That would make sense.


      Quote Originally Posted by SchnellFowVay View Post
      You might actually be intellectually delayed.

      Maybe try reading informative publications instead of conspiracy websites.

      To answer your first point (I don't know why I'm bothering), Japan's birthrate has been staggeringly low for the past 30-40 years. Moreover, it has some of the most restrictive immigration rules of any country on earth. As a result, the WORKING AGE population as a share of the total population is shrinking. This is doubly troublesome for the vast number of retirees in Japan, who rely upon taxes paid by WORKING AGE individuals to cover their pensions and benefits.

      Japan's solution to the labor shortage is institute a guest worker program.
      Werent these old people working most of their life... who ate all their tax money and how did Japan become 12 trillion in debt? How many billion does Japan pay in interest every year and most importantly, who owns Japans debt... or is it a conspiracy to ask that question?
      There is a shortage in the car industry because immigrants are paid half the price after going though all kinds of exploits like 'broker fees' leaving them with only $4 an hour pay in recent times.
      Last edited by VigorousZX; 09-08-2019 at 02:10 PM.
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    18. 09-08-2019 02:05 PM #42
      Quote Originally Posted by AeroWagon View Post
      I will be a Lexus fan until the end, but I have to agree they are pretty stagnant lately.

      Have not agreed with their "make it sporty and luxurious" approach, I think they should have just kept cranking out silent, wafting, comfortable vehicle instead of trying to go after the germans and their autobahn pedigrees.

      The new ES though, is the first car I really like from them in quite some time. Haven't had drive time in it, but the exterior design is slightly toned down and the interior is fantastic.

      I have been an LS super fan for 20+ years, but their design language is not winning me over on the new LS. I still like it, but I don't LOVE it.
      The interior is nice, but the exterior needs to be a but more understated. Some people say this is the companys way of making it "More Japanese" rather more American like it was originally designed after, but I don't know if that will be appealing to the long time buyers.

      p4c






      The new ES is really nice, a lot more car for the money than other Euro offerings like the C-class. It almost makes the LS (and definitely the GS) redundant. It's the first time in a long time Lexus has returned to its core values in a product.

      Last edited by tejlab; 09-08-2019 at 02:11 PM.

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      09-08-2019 03:06 PM #43
      full disclosure: It may have been a new ES that I saw and not an LS

      I still think their CUV lineup could be competitive as-is if they had market leading tech features. I think people care less and less about powertrain differences and more about how many rewinding satellite radio stations you can have (killer straight pipes reference). I think their packaging is fine in those segments otherwise. *shrug*

      Sedans are pretty far behind, esp IS and GS, but I think the LS is okay and the RC still brings in the folks that Lexus intended.

    20. 09-08-2019 05:43 PM #44
      While would like to see another source (other than Lieberman, would be telling if Toyota/Lexus doesn't refute his claim.


      Quote Originally Posted by zmt2 View Post
      All they need is a competitive safety/tech/infotainment package and they'd do a lot better. Their current offering doesn't stop people like my parents from shopping them, but it also doesn't get new butts in seats. They seem to have vehicles in all the right segments (although maybe a more soft-roady 3 row entry with better packaging than the GX would help), and their reputation is sterling.
      That's not the reason behind the sharp decline in IS, RC, GS and LS sales.

      UX, NX and RX sales have been chugging along.



      Quote Originally Posted by zmt2;113691209FWIW
      I saw a new LS the other day and it had presence. looked long and low and properly expensive. Also the LCs always catch my eye.

      The LS 500 is awkward looking and going w/ more of a 4-door coupe body-style was a mistake.

      The whole point of a RWD flagship sedan is having copious amounts of room for the rear passengers and the LS 500 doesn't provide that (the ES has more room in the rear).

      Which is why sales of the LS 500 has been about HALF of the modest 1k sales goal.


      Quote Originally Posted by sandwich-chris View Post
      The LC and LS are both very nice, but that's only ~10K unit a year.

      Their infotainment is enough to turn me off...

      The LS 500 is on track to sell 5,403 for the year, and the LC only 1,272 - so not anywhere close to 10k/yr.

      YTD, Lexus has only sold 6,827 of its higher end cars - GS, LS and LC.

      That's a problem when the US has been by far the largest market for Lexus' higher end lineup (would be in a lot more trouble w/o the 15.6k in GX sales).

      In Europe, basically only the UX and NX sell.

      Even in its home market, Lexus mostly sells its lower end models - the only ones to break 600 sales/month are the UX and ES.

      Worldwide, the Kia K9/K900 outsells the LS (having sold nearly 8k YTD btwn SK and the US.

      For Aug., in Canada, the facelifted Genesis G90 outsold the still pretty new LS - 27 to 4.

      Now, the IS still outsold the G70 in Canada, as did the Stinger (Genesis made a major mistake w/ the G70, going for optimal handling over rear passenger space - the same mistake Cadillac made w/ the ATS).



      The saving grace for Toyota when it comes to higher-end lux sedans is actually the Toyota Crown series - which sells well not only in Japan, but the PRC.

      Toyota has been loathe to invest in Lexus's poor selling RWD offering due to the prospects of poor ROI, so can see the the next LS and Crown sharing a lot more (the Crown series, for most of its run having shared more w/ the GS).
      Last edited by CP1; 09-08-2019 at 05:46 PM.
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    21. 09-08-2019 05:49 PM #45
      Quote Originally Posted by got-rice View Post
      Not surprised, California is one of the top markets for the Lexus brand (If not, its Florida and the retiree community). Asians love the brand lol (I'm Chinese, and my parents drive an RX & ES hybrids, yawn)
      Asians w/ deeper pockets rather go for MB or BMW, tho.
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    22. 09-08-2019 06:03 PM #46
      Interestingly Lexus is doing well in Germany.

      From the article:

      "Major brands had mixed results last month with Lexus, Ford and Mercedes among brands bucking the overall market's decline to post big gains while VW and Audi brand saw sales decline steeply.
      Among the winners, Smart registrations rose 52 percent, Lexus gained 32 percent and Ford sales were up 28 percent.

      Among brands that had a bad month Alfa Romeo's registrations dropped 45 percent, while Nissan sales fell 43 percent and Mitsubishi was down 30 percent.
      VW brand saw sales decline by 17 percent, while Audi was down 11 percent.
      BMW registrations fell 3 percent."

      https://europe.autonews.com/sales-ma...-down-1-august

    23. 09-08-2019 06:04 PM #47
      Quote Originally Posted by CP1 View Post
      While would like to see another source (other than Lieberman, would be telling if Toyota/Lexus doesn't refute his claim.




      That's not the reason behind the sharp decline in IS, RC, GS and LS sales.

      UX, NX and RX sales have been chugging along.






      The LS 500 is awkward looking and going w/ more of a 4-door coupe body-style was a mistake.

      The whole point of a RWD flagship sedan is having copious amounts of room for the rear passengers and the LS 500 doesn't provide that (the ES has more room in the rear).

      Which is why sales of the LS 500 has been about HALF of the modest 1k sales goal.





      The LS 500 is on track to sell 5,403 for the year, and the LC only 1,272 - so not anywhere close to 10k/yr.

      YTD, Lexus has only sold 6,827 of its higher end cars - GS, LS and LC.

      That's a problem when the US has been by far the largest market for Lexus' higher end lineup (would be in a lot more trouble w/o the 15.6k in GX sales).

      In Europe, basically only the UX and NX sell.

      Even in its home market, Lexus mostly sells its lower end models - the only ones to break 600 sales/month are the UX and ES.

      Worldwide, the Kia K9/K900 outsells the LS (having sold nearly 8k YTD btwn SK and the US.

      For Aug., in Canada, the facelifted Genesis G90 outsold the still pretty new LS - 27 to 4.

      Now, the IS still outsold the G70 in Canada, as did the Stinger (Genesis made a major mistake w/ the G70, going for optimal handling over rear passenger space - the same mistake Cadillac made w/ the ATS).



      The saving grace for Toyota when it comes to higher-end lux sedans is actually the Toyota Crown series - which sells well not only in Japan, but the PRC.

      Toyota has been loathe to invest in Lexus's poor selling RWD offering due to the prospects of poor ROI, so can see the the next LS and Crown sharing a lot more (the Crown series, for most of its run having shared more w/ the GS).

      The K9 in south korea is half the price of the LS500 and in the US its sales are nearly zero. The ES costs more in south korea than the K9.

      No one asked about these pseudo premium Korean cars which are in even worse shape sales and relevance wise than the Japanese but I guess Hyundai/Kia PR is technically your job.
      Last edited by tejlab; 09-08-2019 at 06:10 PM.

    24. 09-08-2019 06:14 PM #48
      Quote Originally Posted by XiaoNio View Post
      Maybe some kind of off roading SUV that shares a platform with a legendary offroad vehicle, well known for its reliability and high resale?

      They should definitely think about one of those.
      I know what you r getting at Problem is the LX series doesnt look rugged enough for the wannabes.

    25. 09-08-2019 06:27 PM #49
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      The new ES is really nice, a lot more car for the money than other Euro offerings like the C-class. It almost makes the LS (and definitely the GS) redundant. It's the first time in a long time Lexus has returned to its core values in a product.

      After driving both the ES and LS , I have to say the LS feels more solid/ land cruiser-ish build quality

    26. 09-08-2019 07:05 PM #50
      Quote Originally Posted by tejlab View Post
      The K9 in south korea is half the price of the LS500 and in the US its sales are nearly zero. The ES costs more in south korea than the K9.

      No one asked about these pseudo premium Korean cars which are in even worse shape sales and relevance wise than the Japanese but I guess Hyundai/Kia PR is technically your job.

      The K9 is slotted a a tweener and Kia, unlike Genesis or Lexus, doesn't provide the service amenities which can add a good bit to the cost.

      As for the ES (57 krw), it's only offered in hybrid form - so have to take account for the cost of the battery.

      While the K9 starts at 51 krw w/ its base engine, its top spec starts at 87 krw for the V8.

      And it doesn't really matter in terms of ROI where most of the sales occur - an automaker needs a certain amount of volume to see adequate ROI.

      Add to that the fact the K9 shares its platform and powertrains w/ the G90, so the costs are lowered for Kia.

      Genesis and Kia are seeing a lot more ROI in sales of the G90, G80 and K9/K900 than Lexus is seeing w/ the LS and GS.

      As for pseudo-premium, methinks you have mistaken the Japanese for the Koreans.

      There's a reason why the Aviator is seen as credible competitor to the likes of the GLE and X5 whereas the RX, QX60 and MDX are not.

      Sales of the Japanese lux brands are largely relegated to tarted up FWD models based on platforms shared w/ eponymous Toyota, Nissans and Hondas.

      There a reason why the Aviator is seen as credible competitor to the likes of the GLE and X5, whereas the RX, QX60 and MDX are not.
      Last edited by CP1; 09-08-2019 at 07:09 PM.
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