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    1. Member
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      08-14-2019 12:19 PM #1
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wcJK9-BM8I

      I was laughing pretty hard watching this video...but he brings up some serious and interesting points...specifically who owns your cars configuration?

      In this case Tesla downgraded battery output to supposedly extend battery life, but allegedly it was really to reduce their liability.

      So when we purchase a vehicle are we really guaranteed the parameters that were in place when we took delivery will remain that way? For how long? It's obviously not just Tesla pulling this maneuver...recently FCA made a change to the ecodiesel that has owners in a rage...and I think it's been going on for quite a while by all manufacturers. If they sense they have a problem, just back off the horsepower or whatever the parameter may be. Should there be consumer protection put in place to stop this kind of "update-downgrades" or is it better to reduce power if it reduces fires etc.?

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    3. Moderator Oliver@triplezoom's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 12:24 PM #2
      If the power output (or any other feature) that was advertised changes for the worse then the consumer needs to be compensated. See previous examples like Hyundai and Mazda overstating horsepower. So if a change is made to the car after it was sold something similar needs to be offered.

    4. Member
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      08-14-2019 12:29 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      If the power output (or any other feature) that was advertised changes for the worse then the consumer needs to be compensated. See previous examples like Hyundai and Mazda overstating horsepower. So if a change is made to the car after it was sold something similar needs to be offered.
      I wonder if it has to just be limited to something they advertise? For example most of us make a choice based largely on how they drive. If a change is made that dramatically changes driveability, that's something to consider too.

      Also...what are insurance companies going to think about after-the-fact changes to vehicle parameters? They pay hundreds of actuaries to study statistics which now could be rendered useless if the car manufacturers make changes to a vehicle on the fly, especially to a parameter that could affect their liability or exposure to a lawsuit.

    5. Member mraguilar's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 12:35 PM #4
      Like Corvettes limitting horsepower after you hauled ass in track to protect it?

    6. Member
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      08-14-2019 12:52 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by mraguilar View Post
      Like Corvettes limitting horsepower after you hauled ass in track to protect it?
      I hadn't heard of that one...are they doing it by limiting RPM or fuel etc? Is it temporary?

      Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I could see the manufacturers loving the ability to monitor and change parameters on the fly...for example what if they could monitor wear on a warranty part and make adjustments to ensure it makes it past the warranty period?

    7. 08-14-2019 09:50 PM #6
      I think that's a reference to Corvettes overheating

    8. Just Going with the FLO. Strange Mud's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 07:21 AM #7
      IDK but isn't their often a disclaimer in the brochures/manuals that says specs and features subject to change.
      Quote Originally Posted by VigorousZX
      On a side note long term EMF exposure in electric cars causes AIDS.

    9. Member Smigelski's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:03 AM #8
      This has happened a lot before and the lawsuits have won.

      About 10 years ago Honda recalled Civic Hybrids, reflashed them, and gave them back to the owners. After the update, the cars were getting noticeably worse fuel economy. Honda was sued. Honda settled.

      https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/...aims/index.htm

    10. Member Karl_1340's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:40 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      If the power output (or any other feature) that was advertised changes for the worse then the consumer needs to be compensated. See previous examples like Hyundai and Mazda overstating horsepower. So if a change is made to the car after it was sold something similar needs to be offered.
      1999 Mustang Cobra had that issue too.

      Ford had to replace the entire exhaust systems on the cars to get them to the advertised 320hp.

    11. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:57 AM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post
      So when we purchase a vehicle are we really guaranteed the parameters that were in place when we took delivery will remain that way?
      Of course not! The only guarantees in life are death and taxes. Cars are basically rolling computers. As such, look at who controls the operating system on your smart phone. Hint: it ain't you. The car is just a vessel for the software. You either agree to the terms of service or you don't. Either way you pay. Ultimately, this whole discussion boils down to opportunity costs.

    12. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:01 AM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by Smigelski View Post
      This has happened a lot before and the lawsuits have won... Honda was sued. Honda settled.
      The problem with this approach is the courts are very slow to dispense justice and it's expensive to come by. It's the litigating attorneys and not the consumers who get the best deal. In fact, customers are never really made "whole" whatever that means. Meanwhile, time marches on and very little changes. Every decision is a business decision and a highly cynical one at that. Blame competition or greed or the public or the system. But it is what it is.

    13. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:03 AM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post
      Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I could see the manufacturers loving the ability to monitor and change parameters on the fly...for example what if they could monitor wear on a warranty part and make adjustments to ensure it makes it past the warranty period?
      This is already happening today. https://www.volvotrucks.com/en-en/about-us/uptime.html

    14. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:07 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      If the power output (or any other feature) that was advertised changes for the worse then the consumer needs to be compensated. See previous examples like Hyundai and Mazda overstating horsepower. So if a change is made to the car after it was sold something similar needs to be offered.
      FTC is supposed to pursue these matters. But the FTC's enforcement activities are prioritized. Usually they go after the big fish but sometimes they do or don't take action because of political interference.

      https://www.ftc.gov/news-events/medi...th-advertising

    15. Member
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      08-15-2019 09:35 AM #14
      Thinking a little more on this, once you buy the car it’s yours—you own it. So if a manufacture does an over-the-air change without your permission, is this not trespassing on private property? The “subject to change” wording in brochures is only up until the point of sale. Once you own it, how can they essentially invade your privacy and change it without your permission? At a minimum you should be able to ask ahead of time exactly what is being changed and have it reversed if you’re not happy with it. If they screwed something up and then realize they can slide the fix in with an “upgrade” it’s still a trespass isn’t it, if they don’t ask your permission and disclose exactly what they are doing and the effects? If you say no, they need to figure out another way to compensate you...

    16. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:37 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post
      Thinking a little more on this, once you buy the car it’s yours—you own it.
      You own the car. Not the software. These concepts have been around since the 1980s when PCs exploded in popularity.

    17. Member mraguilar's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:50 AM #16
      is a shame they advertise cars for certain use like this one is supposed to be tracked as you please. also the Raptopr that you cant jumping on it because it can bend the chassis.

      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post
      I hadn't heard of that one...are they doing it by limiting RPM or fuel etc? Is it temporary?

      Maybe I'm just old and cynical, but I could see the manufacturers loving the ability to monitor and change parameters on the fly...for example what if they could monitor wear on a warranty part and make adjustments to ensure it makes it past the warranty period?

      Quote Originally Posted by beefjerky View Post
      I think that's a reference to Corvettes overheating

    18. Member
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      08-15-2019 09:51 AM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      You own the car. Not the software. These concepts have been around since the 1980s when PCs exploded in popularity.
      Where is that statement expressly laid out when you buy the car? I own the circuit board their software is in, so why don’t they need permission to access it?
      I think most of these reflashes or whatever are done to avoid a recall. On that note, do recalls grant manufactures access to your property or are they all voluntary?

    19. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:54 AM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by mraguilar View Post
      is a shame they advertise cars for certain use like this one is supposed to be tracked as you please. also the Raptopr that you cant jumping on it because it can bend the chassis.
      Automakers have a long history of irresponsible advertising and they're all too quick to pull the misuse/abuse card when customers attempt to recreate stunts shown in advertisements for those same vehicles. But is it reasonable for a Raptor to withstand the rigors of landing flat after hitting a motocross jump at 30mph? I can break any truck known to man. Does that mean they're all pieces of crap? No.

    20. Member freedomgli's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:07 AM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post
      Where is that statement expressly laid out when you buy the car?
      It’s usually buried in the fine print or there’s a hyperlink that no one clicks on when they choose “Accept” on the Infotainment screen or most often it’s simply implied. An argument could be made that there needs to be greater transparency and consumer education about these issues. But no one is making automakers do that right now therefore many choose not to highlight this fact.

    21. Member
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      08-15-2019 10:22 AM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      It’s usually buried in the fine print or there’s a hyperlink that no one clicks on when they choose “Accept” on the Infotainment screen or most often it’s simply implied. An argument could be made that there needs to be greater transparency and consumer education about these issues. But no one is making automakers do that right now therefore many choose not to highlight this fact.
      Their lawyers must just be loving this ability to go in after the fact and make changes to avoid recalls or lawsuits. They probably figure they'll push it hard until consumer protection legislation catches up. We'll see if Tesla manages to dodge the bullet on this one.... Where's Ralph Nader when you need him?

    22. Member rich!'s Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:33 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by freedomgli View Post
      You own the car. Not the software. These concepts have been around since the 1980s when PCs exploded in popularity.
      SAAS vehicles. the future.

    23. Senior Member LT1M21Stingray's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 11:39 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Dirtmvr View Post


      I was laughing pretty hard watching this video...but he brings up some serious and interesting points...specifically who owns your cars configuration?

      In this case Tesla downgraded battery output to supposedly extend battery life, but allegedly it was really to reduce their liability.

      So when we purchase a vehicle are we really guaranteed the parameters that were in place when we took delivery will remain that way? For how long? It's obviously not just Tesla pulling this maneuver...recently FCA made a change to the ecodiesel that has owners in a rage...and I think it's been going on for quite a while by all manufacturers. If they sense they have a problem, just back off the horsepower or whatever the parameter may be. Should there be consumer protection put in place to stop this kind of "update-downgrades" or is it better to reduce power if it reduces fires etc.?
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Madness
      Back when making your car faster and better handling was the big thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tavarish
      The car's best safety feature includes ejecting you in the moment of impact and wishing you the best of luck.

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      08-15-2019 01:47 PM #23
      We bought our Cayenne diesel well-used and post-dieselgate, but the previous owner went through it and told me about it. Basically they had to take it in twice--first for software, second for hardware and software once it was ready. Supposedly it drove almost the same but now holds gears longer when cold, unlocks the torque converter more under hard acceleration, and gets ~33mpg where it used to get 35mpg. I assume it also drinks more DEF but they had it dealer maintained so no way to verify. Overall minor stuff, some of which could just be attributed to aging.

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