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    1. 08-14-2019 03:44 PM #276
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Who has said that? Seriously. Who?
      Go to a site like www.greencarcongress.com and you will find more than your share of EV zealots.

      There are those who think combustion-engine vehicles should have been banned and taken off the roads 20 years ago. The GM EV1 was good enough to be all things to all people back then.

      There are those who think Tesla is the be-all and end-all of the automotive industry and that the entire rest of the auto industry is doomed to collapse while Tesla takes over everything.

      There are some who think the future is dominated by self-driving electric taxis, and there will be no private vehicle ownership.

      There are plenty who think that all research and development towards improving combustion-engine vehicles and powertrains is wasted money and should be stopped, because it's wasteful to spend money on that which could be spent towards developing EVs. (Myself, I have little doubt that such a time may eventually arrive, but we are probably 15 - 20 years away from it.)

      There are some who compromise and think that a tiny range-extender engine is acceptable. They don't grasp the concept that this implies "series-hybrid" and the charge/discharge losses are worse than what's theoretically lost (if anything) by using a bigger right-sized engine. The BMW i3 doesn't get great mileage when operating in series-hybrid mode. The Volt (with a much bigger engine) does better, because it can couple itself mechanically under some conditions.

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    3. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:49 PM #277
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Go to a site like www.greencarcongress.com and you will find more than your share of EV zealots.

      There are those who think combustion-engine vehicles should have been banned and taken off the roads 20 years ago. The GM EV1 was good enough to be all things to all people back then.

      There are those who think Tesla is the be-all and end-all of the automotive industry and that the entire rest of the auto industry is doomed to collapse while Tesla takes over everything.

      There are some who think the future is dominated by self-driving electric taxis, and there will be no private vehicle ownership.

      There are plenty who think that all research and development towards improving combustion-engine vehicles and powertrains is wasted money and should be stopped, because it's wasteful to spend money on that which could be spent towards developing EVs. (Myself, I have little doubt that such a time may eventually arrive, but we are probably 15 - 20 years away from it.)

      There are some who compromise and think that a tiny range-extender engine is acceptable. They don't grasp the concept that this implies "series-hybrid" and the charge/discharge losses are worse than what's theoretically lost (if anything) by using a bigger right-sized engine. The BMW i3 doesn't get great mileage when operating in series-hybrid mode. The Volt (with a much bigger engine) does better, because it can couple itself mechanically under some conditions.
      well, there's always gonna be someone with a very extreme viewpoint. but yes, we should have started this shift a LONG time ago. Greed gets in the way.
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    4. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 04:06 PM #278
      Quote Originally Posted by Jettavr666 View Post
      ehhh I dont agree. IMO here is what you will see in the next 10 years.

      A HUGE buildout of fast public charging stations.
      dealer incentives to get EV's. like free home charger installation
      range extension options, like dealer provided gas loaners
      fast charging stations on places like city streets.

      In the US the way cars are sold is pretty much dictated by the dealer network, once they can figure out how to make money on EV's, its all over for general use of ICE vehicles.
      -Where is that huge build out coming from and funded by?

      -I can't see dealer incentives, but I could see public utility incentives much like with the current rebate programs for converting to LED.

      -Range extension options? You mean if you are low on juice you can go pick up an ICE vehicle to borrow while your EV is charging? Don't see that if that is what you mean.

      -Who is installing the fast charging stations in the city? I can see it benefiting a company if they create pay charge stations similar in idea to current gas stations but otherwise. If cities install them - who is going to maintain them? Who is going to monitor them to make sure people don't sit on them all day? Who is going to shovel them out of the snow in the states that get snow?

      The way cars are sold is dictated by what people buy. A great example is the current trend of dropping sedans or in VW's case, wagons from their lineup. People aren't buying them, so they are no longer either making or selling them in the US. The dealerships have nothing to do with that decision really in my opinion.

      So unless people start showing up in hordes demanding EV's and completely ignoring ICE cars I don't see ICE going away anytime soon. Not the next decade, not the next two decades.

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      08-14-2019 04:09 PM #279
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Here are a couple:


      That was just from searching "replace"... there are plenty of other people (including you) who scoffed at me questioning the idea of complete BEV conversion
      Those, and mine, are generalities. BEVs simply will not be able to do everything a fueled car can do in the same amount of time. That's a given. What you're refusing to see is that eventually those exceptions will be low in number. BEVs can replace a huge number of gas cars today with no more capability than they have now. They're not yet out there, because there simply hasn't been time to make that many nor make them cheaply enough. That time is coming and consumer acceptance will come along with it.

      It wasn't long ago that everyone thought that Ford pickup customers wouldn't buy a turbo V6 when the 5.0 and diesel were available. What changed? Customer perception and the fact that the Ecoboost had clear advantages that customers could use.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
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    6. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 04:14 PM #280
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Go to a site like www.greencarcongress.com and you will find more than your share of EV zealots.

      There are those who think combustion-engine vehicles should have been banned and taken off the roads 20 years ago. The GM EV1 was good enough to be all things to all people back then.

      There are those who think Tesla is the be-all and end-all of the automotive industry and that the entire rest of the auto industry is doomed to collapse while Tesla takes over everything.

      There are some who think the future is dominated by self-driving electric taxis, and there will be no private vehicle ownership.

      There are plenty who think that all research and development towards improving combustion-engine vehicles and powertrains is wasted money and should be stopped, because it's wasteful to spend money on that which could be spent towards developing EVs. (Myself, I have little doubt that such a time may eventually arrive, but we are probably 15 - 20 years away from it.)
      I wasn't talking about them, I was speaking about this forum. If you look on the internet you can find any extreme viewpoint you want to find and many you don't!


      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      There are some who compromise and think that a tiny range-extender engine is acceptable. They don't grasp the concept that this implies "series-hybrid" and the charge/discharge losses are worse than what's theoretically lost (if anything) by using a bigger right-sized engine. The BMW i3 doesn't get great mileage when operating in series-hybrid mode. The Volt (with a much bigger engine) does better, because it can couple itself mechanically under some conditions.
      Range extenders are quite useful, but their usefulness isn't while they're running on gas, it's when they're running pure electric on the day-to-day grind. In doing that they don't use any gas.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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      08-14-2019 04:15 PM #281
      Quote Originally Posted by UncleJB View Post
      -Where is that huge build out coming from and funded by?
      So far? Tesla investors and (in a best-of-both-worlds arrangement) VW, which is mandated to by the government as a penalty for emissions cheating and thus isn't costing public money to do it

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      08-14-2019 04:24 PM #282
      Quote Originally Posted by UncleJB View Post
      -Where is that huge build out coming from and funded by?

      -I can't see dealer incentives, but I could see public utility incentives much like with the current rebate programs for converting to LED.

      -Range extension options? You mean if you are low on juice you can go pick up an ICE vehicle to borrow while your EV is charging? Don't see that if that is what you mean.

      -Who is installing the fast charging stations in the city? I can see it benefiting a company if they create pay charge stations similar in idea to current gas stations but otherwise. If cities install them - who is going to maintain them? Who is going to monitor them to make sure people don't sit on them all day? Who is going to shovel them out of the snow in the states that get snow?

      The way cars are sold is dictated by what people buy. A great example is the current trend of dropping sedans or in VW's case, wagons from their lineup. People aren't buying them, so they are no longer either making or selling them in the US. The dealerships have nothing to do with that decision really in my opinion.

      So unless people start showing up in hordes demanding EV's and completely ignoring ICE cars I don't see ICE going away anytime soon. Not the next decade, not the next two decades.
      fast charging option would likely be paid for by utility companies that re quickly retiring their coal stations to meet modern emissions demands. Also solar and wind is cheaper in the long run in many areas. This is already happening, as coal stations have dropped by more than half in 10 years. For an infrastructure project that amount is GIGANTIC.

      REX options are far more difficult, and this is where america will lag, but the dealer network could fix the issue. Say you buy an EV, but need to take a long trip? so when you buy your car you prepay for XX years of gas loaner to do so. Thats a dealer benefit for most, and a consumer benefit for the few times when they need it. That kind of cost markup alone willl help EV sales.

      What most don't understand on this forum is that in general people could give two %*&'s about what propels their car as long as its quick, smooth, and doesn't cost them much. and this is where EV's and possible subsidies come in.

      as far as dropping sales, right now people are ONLY buying the cars they need, and sales are beyond flat. People are buying the cars they need, not the cars they want. NEEDING ev's will happen sooner than later

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      08-14-2019 04:36 PM #283
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      And isn't a lot of that due to a LOT of global EV fear of range usability in edge cases? And people like CTK and others trying to specifically move people away from EVs? And dealerships specifically steering buyers away: Why buy this new Volt when we can sell you an Equinox instead?

      Fact is, lack of knowledge and fear keeps people away more than anything. So many people think they are an edge case and that an EV CAN'T work for them. But the truth is more people could use them right now than we can even build them for.

      And sorry, but one of the reasons for not choosing one, the sound, is so silly. The sound of an automatic 4 cyl Camry/Accord/Sonata/CRV/Rogue isn't going to be missed when transitioning to the more luxurious quiet thrust of an EV...lol
      Sure - I agree about the fear but to me, price and product variation is key and would alleviate that fear more than range usability. And for my M-F commuter, sound doesn't matter. I listen to music.

      Look, I know Germany, lived there 7 yrs, go there regularly, 75% of my extended family is there. Range anxiety isn't much of an issue, it's a small country with shorter distances/commutes. The original article in this thread talked about the "tipping point" and the May release of the ID3 being important for VW. I looked up ID3 sales in Germany in July - 96 units. July 2019 was almost a record month for EV sales in Germany and they were still a small fraction of ICE sales. 332K total car sales, with 5900 being EVs. And that market is supposed to be all EV in 10 years.

      I fully agree they'll take over at some point and that's great, just not in yours or my lifetime though. You have an anti govt "forced" stance, as do I. But I fear we'll never achieve meaningful market share numbers without it.
      Last edited by tbvvw; 08-14-2019 at 04:38 PM.

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      08-14-2019 04:57 PM #284
      Quote Originally Posted by Jettavr666 View Post
      What most don't understand on this forum is that in general people could give two %*&'s about what propels their car as long as its quick, smooth, and doesn't cost them much. and this is where EV's and possible subsidies come in.
      ICEVs are relatively dirt cheap and easy to own and operate. Here's another factor. You look at any tech that blew up over the last ~200 or so years, it succeeded on the back of convenience. For people with the financial and logistical means to easily charge up every night who either never drive far or have access to another car, EVs are probably more convenient. For everyone else though... and there are a lot of "everyone elses".

      Renting an ICEV every time you want to take a long trip is about as inconvenient as it gets as well. But if one brings these things up they are trying to "steer people away from EVs", as if getting everyone into an EV is an objective we all have to subscribe to....

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      08-14-2019 05:00 PM #285
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Go to a site like www.greencarcongress.com and you will find more than your share of EV zealots.
      Hell, you don't have to leave this thread. worth_fixing wants EVs to replace all the "non cool" EVs and I'm not even gonna talk about ChrisV.

      Like I said for folks like them this is completely disconnected from improving the environment or providing people with more transportation choices. It's about control and to a degree bullying. There are a ****load of other + better ways to reduce GHGs and emissions either per $ or per kWh of battery. But why discuss that when we can antagonize anyone who questions the BEV prophecy?

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      08-14-2019 05:12 PM #286
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Hell, you don't have to leave this thread. worth_fixing wants EVs to replace all the "non cool" EVs and I'm not even gonna talk about ChrisV.
      wait, what's wrong with that?
      You want to keep all the ICEs? What about the Nissan Rogue? Man, if you find ChrisV is offensive...

      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Like I said for folks like them this is completely disconnected from improving the environment or providing people with more transportation choices. It's about control and to a degree bullying. There are a ****load of other + better ways to reduce GHGs and emissions either per $ or per kWh of battery. But why discuss that when we can antagonize anyone who questions the BEV prophecy?
      I thought you and I agreed! What do you think would be better long-term than an ICE? Or how would you reduce green houses gases?
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      08-14-2019 05:40 PM #287
      I, for one, am interested in the valid and reasonable opinions of someone who uses the term "EV jihadists"
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      Quote Originally Posted by Dravenport View Post
      this thread is a mess, I can't tell if it's full of trolls or idiots and I'm not sure it matters

    14. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 05:47 PM #288
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      So far? Tesla investors and (in a best-of-both-worlds arrangement) VW, which is mandated to by the government as a penalty for emissions cheating and thus isn't costing public money to do it
      Yes I have seen more Tesla Supercharger stations being set up along highways so I can see that. I haven't however seen any evidence of multiple stations being set up pretty much anywhere I travel. I understand VW is going to be forced into installing - but what happens after that? I don't know the details of the VW "punishment" beyond the fact that they will be setting up charging stations and offering more EV vehicles.

      Quote Originally Posted by Jettavr666 View Post
      fast charging option would likely be paid for by utility companies that re quickly retiring their coal stations to meet modern emissions demands. Also solar and wind is cheaper in the long run in many areas. This is already happening, as coal stations have dropped by more than half in 10 years. For an infrastructure project that amount is GIGANTIC.

      REX options are far more difficult, and this is where america will lag, but the dealer network could fix the issue. Say you buy an EV, but need to take a long trip? so when you buy your car you prepay for XX years of gas loaner to do so. Thats a dealer benefit for most, and a consumer benefit for the few times when they need it. That kind of cost markup alone willl help EV sales.
      So power/utility companies are going to install and maintain fast charging stations...for free? I used to spend quite a bit of time in power plants for my last job and I can assure you the last thing they want to do is spend any money.

      The only things they do spend money on are making sure their plants don't "trip" and can be pulled on line in a hurry. Everything else is an uphill battle. The control centers in power plants actually have a monitor telling them how much money they are making by the minute.

      The second point quoted is exactly the problem with the US public perception of EVs. There aren't enough people that trust electric "things" to see a mass change from ICE to EV. If I am going on a road trip with the family, I want to take the family car, not stop at the dealer for a gas car because my daily EV won't make the distance.

      Until you can take your EV to a "pump" and charge your battery to a usable point in the same time you can pump a tank of gas, EV is not going to be on the radar for most of America. That is my opinion of course.

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      08-14-2019 05:51 PM #289
      Quote Originally Posted by UncleJB View Post
      Yes I have seen more Tesla Supercharger stations being set up along highways so I can see that. I haven't however seen any evidence of multiple stations being set up pretty much anywhere I travel. I understand VW is going to be forced into installing - but what happens after that? I don't know the details of the VW "punishment" beyond the fact that they will be setting up charging stations and offering more EV vehicles.
      They are being installed mainly at WalMarts around the country by Electrify America.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger

    16. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 06:09 PM #290
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      They are being installed mainly at WalMarts around the country by Electrify America.

      https://www.electrifyamerica.com/locate-charger
      That's right I remember reading that. Still my question stands - who is going to maintain them once installed? VW? WalMart?

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      08-14-2019 06:20 PM #291
      Quote Originally Posted by UncleJB View Post
      That's right I remember reading that. Still my question stands - who is going to maintain them once installed? VW? WalMart?
      It isn't free to charge so I would imagine that Electrify America is going to maintain them.

      EDIT: Technically the vendors to Electrify America will maintain the chargers.
      Last edited by spockcat; 08-14-2019 at 06:22 PM.

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      08-14-2019 06:20 PM #292
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      wait, what's wrong with that?
      You want to keep all the ICEs? What about the Nissan Rogue? Man, if you find ChrisV is offensive...



      I thought you and I agreed! What do you think would be better long-term than an ICE? Or how would you reduce green houses gases?
      My position on EVs has evolved as I've got more and more information. On the surface they look great. Instant torque! Lower emissions! Self-righteousness! But if the goal is to reduce emissions is efficiently as possible, why limit it to BEVs? Transportation only counts for ~28% of global emissions. What about the other 72%? Even in the transportation sector there are more effective ways to go about it. Again batteries are limited. Hybrids are a much more efficient way of reducing emissions for a given battery capacity. I'd wager battery banks in homes combined with renewables is an even more effective use of batteries. Etc. This **** doesn't even seem to cross the minds of the EV jihadists because your goals have nothing to do with emissions.

      I'm still curious as to why you want EVs to replace "non-cool" ICEVs.

    19. 08-14-2019 06:23 PM #293
      There are a number of companies outside of Tesla and Electrify America that are building charging networks. Blink, EVgo, and Chargepoint are three and I'm sure there are plenty more. I think the need is far, far overblown though. I've had my Model 3 11 months now and over 9k miles. I've used Superchargers only 11 times according to my account. I can recall at least 3 of those are because I had to piss and a charger I pass offers an easy spot for that. 1 was a pure novelty to see how it all worked. And another was as I was learning the range of the car and gave myself a 10% cushion (ended up back home over 20). That leaves 6 actual needs in my whole ownership and I live in the Rocky Mountain west which isn't really riddled with fast chargers. They were all on road trips and the experience was great all around. Of course they will need expanded as more EVs come online, but the day to day need for charging networks is way, way overblown. I think that will be seen as the market grows.

      When it comes to convenience, I think that is actually where EVs thrive. 95+% of the year, most people don't need to use any public charger if they have it at home. Just plug in at home and have a full or enough of a tank to get through. There is no stopping at gas stations weekly or every other week to fill up. The day to day convenience of that is really the most underrated part of EV ownership. This far offsets any inconvenience that is caused by using a Tesla Supercharger a few times a year(as CCS expands I expect it to be similar), and I really don't find those to be all that bad. Just time it around lunch, eat a burrito, and 30 minutes later I have plenty of charge to be on my way.

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      08-14-2019 07:47 PM #294
      You guys have far different driving habits than mine. 95+% of my miles are on the highway, probably 90% on trips over 100 miles round trip. 10-25k miles a year depending on the year.

      Do most people really never go anywhere?

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      08-14-2019 07:54 PM #295
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      You guys have far different driving habits than mine. 95+% of my miles are on the highway, probably 90% on trips over 100 miles round trip. 10-25k miles a year depending on the year.

      Do most people really never go anywhere?
      That tends to happen when you live in a small town and need to go somewhere for almost anything.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
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      08-14-2019 08:18 PM #296
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      That tends to happen when you live in a small town and need to go somewhere for almost anything.
      It was the same when we lived in Lexington, KY and in the suburbs of Detroit. Regular road trips all over the Eastern half of the country, very little daily driving. More in the past decade, after finishing college, since we live away from both our families and have a little bit more time and money - plus friends from school are now scattered all over.

      In MI it was normal to drive up to Mackinac or Chicago or wherever for an overnight, in KY it was normal to do the same for Nashville/Indy, in NY it's normal to do the same for NYC/Toronto/Philly/Pittsburgh/whatever.

      Normal people just sit home and drink White Claw?

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      08-14-2019 08:34 PM #297
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      Normal people just sit home and drink White Claw?
      I drive 40-50 miles a day mostly "highway" and my wife drives 18. My commute it 30-60+ minutes and hers is ~9. We also do monthly trips of 100-180 mile one way trips to see family, sometimes twice a month.
      We could both easily live with an EV each and not really worry. If we need to take a longer trip we would just rent or fly.
      Granted, just to get out of the state is at least 260 miles unless I want to go to Mexico which is only 240 miles away.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
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      08-14-2019 09:04 PM #298
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      My position on EVs has evolved as I've got more and more information. On the surface they look great. Instant torque! Lower emissions! Self-righteousness! But if the goal is to reduce emissions is efficiently as possible, why limit it to BEVs? Transportation only counts for ~28% of global emissions. What about the other 72%? Even in the transportation sector there are more effective ways to go about it. Again batteries are limited. Hybrids are a much more efficient way of reducing emissions for a given battery capacity. I'd wager battery banks in homes combined with renewables is an even more effective use of batteries. Etc. This **** doesn't even seem to cross the minds of the EV jihadists because your goals have nothing to do with emissions.

      I'm still curious as to why you want EVs to replace "non-cool" ICEVs.
      sorry, i thought that was clear. if we can agree that a BEV is more environmentally friendly than an equivalent ICE, then we can agree that every Tom, Dick and even Harry who don't give a rat's ass about cars or driving and who would have bought Nissan Rogues would buy an EV and reduce the amount of crap they generate in their lifespan.

      i thought it was much less...but ~28% of global emissions are transportation? That's f*cking huge. lol

      gotta chill a bit man. EV Jihad? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH holy sh!t

      if you don't think EVs are better environmentally than ICEs, then i'd say we've progressed the thread a bit.
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      Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy.

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      08-14-2019 09:20 PM #299
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      sorry, i thought that was clear. if we can agree that a BEV is more environmentally friendly than an equivalent ICE, then we can agree that every Tom, Dick and even Harry who don't give a rat's ass about cars or driving and who would have bought Nissan Rogues would buy an EV and reduce the amount of crap they generate in their lifespan.

      i thought it was much less...but ~28% of global emissions are transportation? That's f*cking huge. lol

      gotta chill a bit man. EV Jihad? HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH holy sh!t

      if you don't think EVs are better environmentally than ICEs, then i'd say we've progressed the thread a bit.
      If you want to reduce the amount of crap people generate, why demand that they replace perfectly running ICEVs with new BEVs? Yes a new BEV is more environmentally friendly than a new ICEV. But again, if your real concern is about the environment, you would want people to buy as few news cars as possible.

    26. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 09:28 PM #300
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      If you want to reduce the amount of crap people generate, why demand that they replace perfectly running ICEVs with new BEVs? Yes a new BEV is more environmentally friendly than a new ICEV. But again, if your real concern is about the environment, you would want people to buy as few news cars as possible.
      oh yes, agreed, but if you're going to replace your crappy ICE with a new car, don't care about driving and can integrate an EV in your lifestyle, definitely do it. If your 1999 Corolla still runs fine, don't change it for the sake of changing.

      I think we're on the same page here.
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      Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy.

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