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    1. Member
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      08-14-2019 02:30 PM #251
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      happily, worldwide automotive trends don't resound with those of the state of Georgia. hahahahhaha

      i mean, don't get me wrong; if you don't want an EV, you won't buy one. But the world wants EVs.
      So you're saying tax credits aren't important to US EV sales?

      I'd love to see EV sales numbers in CA or anywhere if no tax credit was available. The current $7,500 credit is "the" most important political issue to Tesla and GM right now. Their sales, profit margins depend on it. Tesla stock jumps when they discuss it on the Hill.

      Do you even know this exists?
      Last edited by tbvvw; 08-14-2019 at 02:34 PM.

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    3. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 02:30 PM #252
      Quote Originally Posted by AC1DD View Post
      CTK isn't saying that at all. He's simply pointing out that the elite are trying to decree that EV will be what all drivers must choose in the near future.

      I liken this to the overbearing influence that the gov't have had on safety aspects of cars over the past forty years, I'm all for freedom of choice for the consumer, but I am livid that I must buy a car with 20 airbags, numerous safety nannies, and other aspects that I must pay for, whether I want that in a new car or not. Same basic page. If one consumer wants all those things fine let them pay, where is my freedom of choice when buying in these cases, I don't have it. That is a fact.

      Sorry, but a government's real job is to care for the general welfare of its citizens, and saving lives is a huge part of that so YOU don't bear the costs of injury or death of a loved one, whether it's your "freedom" to die in a horrible crash or not. And since that crash will probably be into someone else rather than into a tree, it's the government's job to protect the other driver and passenger's freedom to continue to LIVE and protect them from you. So those safety nannies have made it so you CAN drive faster, safer and not worry about what's happening to others. That is actually freedom. Especially since you can still build your own or buy an older car that doesn't have those safety nannies. It's still freedom to choose. You just want YOUR version of life mandated for all, which is the identical "elitist" claptrap you are railing against. Sorry, Golfy.

      In this case, a large portion of the world understands that we have to do something to reduce dependence on fossil fuels and switch over to a renewable economy. BEVs are still often powered by fossil fuels, yes. But not always, and they don't need to be, so as the grid gets cleaner, they get cleaner by default. This is good for the general welfare, and possibly the survival of, the general public. Sorry that you think it's "elitist" to want to save the world and make it a better place for our children and grandchildren.
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    4. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 02:38 PM #253
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      So you're saying tax credits aren't important to US EV sales?

      I'd love to see EV sales numbers in CA or anywhere if no tax credit was available. The current $7,500 credit is "the" most important political issue to Tesla and GM right now. Their sales, profit margins depend on it. Tesla stock jumps when they discuss it on the Hill.

      Do you even know this exists?
      right now, yeah your EV sales are gonna hurt without it. The Unites states needs tax credits to encourage people to buy EVs so you keep developping them and their battery tech and to create incentives to build your electrical charging grid.

      No incentives, and americans flock to buy Suburbans and Nissan Rogues, and EVs go nowhere.
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    5. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 02:43 PM #254
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      right now, yeah your EV sales are gonna hurt without it. The Unites states needs tax credits to encourage people to buy EVs so you keep developping them and their battery tech and to create incentives to build your electrical charging grid.

      No incentives, and americans flock to buy Suburbans and Nissan Rogues, and EVs go nowhere.
      Thats assuming high prices of EVs. Once pricing comes down, tax credits are not needed. Teslas only get $1,875 right now in credits starting July 1. Model 3 is still selling fine and partly due to the price of it coming down as well. The cheapest one now is $37.5 or so delivered. Thats a bargain.
      Slow Car Fast

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      08-14-2019 02:45 PM #255
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      the world

      gonna quote wikipedia here
      2% after 120+ years. I guess we have different opinions of "want"

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      08-14-2019 02:47 PM #256
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      No incentives, and americans flock to buy Suburbans and Nissan Rogues, and EVs go nowhere.
      So in other words, people DON'T want EVs. God forbid people buy the cars they want, instead of the cars you want.

      You mentioned cell phones- has there ever been a big country wide incentive or mandate to get people to buy more cell phones? Or did people just figure out a way because they actually wanted them?

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      08-14-2019 02:54 PM #257
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      right now, yeah your EV sales are gonna hurt without it. The Unites states needs tax credits to encourage people to buy EVs so you keep developping them and their battery tech and to create incentives to build your electrical charging grid.

      No incentives, and americans flock to buy Suburbans and Nissan Rogues, and EVs go nowhere.
      So the world wants EVs, but EVs go nowhere without the government lending a generous helping hand with taxpayer funds. Got it.

      Let's not let current sales facts get in the way of a healthy debate. If the world wanted them, market share would not be where it is today. There's only 2 countries in the world that have >10% EV new car sales numbers. And those are small, huge incentive markets.

      ^^ all that is a gentle way of saying without govt mandates and incentives, there is no global EV market.

    9. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 02:58 PM #258
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      So the world wants EVs, but EVs go nowhere without the government lending a generous helping hand with taxpayer funds. Got it.

      Let's not let current sales facts get in the way of a healthy debate. If the world wanted them, market share would not be where it is today. There's only 2 countries in the world that have >10% EV new car sales numbers. And those are small, huge incentive markets.

      ^^ all that is a gentle way of saying without govt mandates and incentives, there is no global EV market.

      Let's take government subsidies off fossil fuels then too.

    10. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:02 PM #259
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      2% after 120+ years. I guess we have different opinions of "want"
      What electric car could you buy 20 years ago? Also, 2% is huge. It will soon be bigger. Don't believe it? That doesn't matter.

      Very conservatively speaking, when it's 4% in 5 years are you going to say "nobody wants them"? How about 8% in 10 years? 16% in 15? 32% in 20? 64% in 25 years? At what point will you stop and think "well, I guess people do want them?"

      Oh, that's right. Things aren't going to change. I keep forgetting that. You know, because things are always static.
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    11. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:02 PM #260
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      2% after 120+ years. I guess we have different opinions of "want"
      hahahah ok man.

      not sure why you keep posting here if you hate EVs so much.

      #typeS
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      08-14-2019 03:08 PM #261
      Based on the estimated costs in that study, coal/NG generated electricity would increase in price far more than gasoline if we added their GW & local pollution taxes.

      And as I hope you know most electricity in the world is still generated by fossil fuels
      Last edited by CTK; 08-14-2019 at 03:16 PM.

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      08-14-2019 03:13 PM #262
      Fine, I agree.

      But we have 280M registered cars in the US and 99.9% are ICE. You think the market share % will change if all incentives to all cars will stop?

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      08-14-2019 03:15 PM #263
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      hahahah ok man.

      not sure why you keep posting here if you hate EVs so much.

      #typeS
      I don't hate EVs. Like I've said many times, if they ever make one that fits my wants and needs, I have no problems buying one. My house and commute would be perfect for one.

      What I'm annoyed by are EV zealots proclaiming that EVs will replace all ICEVs, who get angry and personal when you ask them how or present them with any evidence to the contrary. For you and others, EVs aren't about anything but an opportunity to tell people how stupid they are for "not seeing the future" and disagreeing with you. You have no environmental consciousness or pragmatism, no understanding of market dynamics, and no respect for people's right to choose. If calling that out makes me a hater then I'm a hater. I've been called worse and survived.

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      08-14-2019 03:19 PM #264
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't hate EVs. Like I've said many times, if they ever make one that fits my wants and needs, I have no problems buying one. My house and commute would be perfect for one.

      What I'm annoyed by are EV zealots proclaiming that EVs will replace all ICEVs, who get angry and personal when you ask them how or present them with any evidence to the contrary. For you and others, EVs aren't about anything but an opportunity to tell people how stupid they are for "not seeing the future" and disagreeing with you. You have no environmental consciousness or pragmatism, no understanding of market dynamics, and no respect for people's right to choose. If calling that out makes me a hater then I'm a hater. I've been called worse and survived.
      Who has said that? Seriously. Who?
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

    16. 08-14-2019 03:24 PM #265
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't hate EVs. Like I've said many times, if they ever make one that fits my wants and needs, I have no problems buying one. My house and commute would be perfect for one.

      What I'm annoyed by are EV zealots proclaiming that EVs will replace all ICEVs, who get angry and personal when you ask them how or present them with any evidence to the contrary. For you and others, EVs aren't about anything but an opportunity to tell people how stupid they are for "not seeing the future" and disagreeing with you. You have no environmental consciousness or pragmatism, no understanding of market dynamics, and no respect for people's right to choose. If calling that out makes me a hater then I'm a hater. I've been called worse and survived.

      I've noticed not just on this forum but sites as well that various members will claim, "You refuse to learn", or "you refuse to educate yourself", if you have your own viewpoint on such a matter, what they are really saying, in code is, you refuse to accept a decree about a matter that self appointed masters decided was how it is to be or will be.

    17. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:24 PM #266
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I don't hate EVs. Like I've said many times, if they ever make one that fits my wants and needs, I have no problems buying one. My house and commute would be perfect for one.

      What I'm annoyed by are EV zealots proclaiming that EVs will replace all ICEVs, who get angry and personal when you ask them how or present them with any evidence to the contrary. For you and others, EVs aren't about anything but an opportunity to tell people how stupid they are for "not seeing the future" and disagreeing with you. You have no environmental consciousness or pragmatism, no understanding of market dynamics, and no respect for people's right to choose. If calling that out makes me a hater then I'm a hater. I've been called worse and survived.
      it's all a prediction, no one has a crystal ball, no one's butt hurt, and i haven't read a single zealot post here.

      but i do hope that EVs take over as soon as possible and leave only the cool ICEs. one can only hope.
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    18. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:28 PM #267
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      So the world wants EVs, but EVs go nowhere without the government lending a generous helping hand with taxpayer funds. Got it.

      Let's not let current sales facts get in the way of a healthy debate. If the world wanted them, market share would not be where it is today. There's only 2 countries in the world that have >10% EV new car sales numbers. And those are small, huge incentive markets.

      ^^ all that is a gentle way of saying without govt mandates and incentives, there is no global EV market.
      And isn't a lot of that due to a LOT of global EV fear of range usability in edge cases? And people like CTK and others trying to specifically move people away from EVs? And dealerships specifically steering buyers away: Why buy this new Volt when we can sell you an Equinox instead?

      Fact is, lack of knowledge and fear keeps people away more than anything. So many people think they are an edge case and that an EV CAN'T work for them. But the truth is more people could use them right now than we can even build them for.

      And sorry, but one of the reasons for not choosing one, the sound, is so silly. The sound of an automatic 4 cyl Camry/Accord/Sonata/CRV/Rogue isn't going to be missed when transitioning to the more luxurious quiet thrust of an EV...lol
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

    19. Member masa8888's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:29 PM #268
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Fine, I agree.

      But we have 280M registered cars in the US and 99.9% are ICE. You think the market share % will change if all incentives to all cars will stop?
      If incentives stopped today, we'd see an immediate and massive decrease in EV sales (like in GA), and Tesla would file for bankruptcy before being acquired by another company. That's because the ICE competition is much more compelling today, unless incentives are applied.

      Companies are working toward pricing parity though, and eventually we may be paying less than ICE cars which was the point of the original article. The incentives are a stop-gap measure to reach this hypothetical parity.

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      08-14-2019 03:33 PM #269
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      Who has said that? Seriously. Who?
      Here are a couple:

      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      With the exception of maybe 1 or 2 posters, everyone is in general agreement that ICE will be replaced by EV over time.
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      It sounds to me like you admit that EVs will eventually replace ICE, you just don't know when that will happen. On that point, we agree. I don't know when the EV/ICE tipping point will be and I am sure its a few years out, but you're a fool if you think it won't get here.
      That was just from searching "replace"... there are plenty of other people (including you) who scoffed at me questioning the idea of complete BEV conversion

    21. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:34 PM #270
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      luxurious quiet thrust
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      08-14-2019 03:35 PM #271
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      but i do hope that EVs take over as soon as possible and leave only the cool ICEs. one can only hope.
      Why?

      And it's fine to have hopes and wants... but don't let them cloud your view of reality. Hoping EVs take over doesn't mean they will.

    23. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:37 PM #272
      Quote Originally Posted by masa8888 View Post
      If incentives stopped today, we'd see an immediate and massive decrease in EV sales (like in GA), and Tesla would file for bankruptcy before being acquired by another company. That's because the ICE competition is much more compelling today, unless incentives are applied.

      Companies are working toward pricing parity though, and eventually we may be paying less than ICE cars which was the point of the original article. The incentives are a stop-gap measure to reach this hypothetical parity.
      Current Tesla tax incentive on new vehicles is less than $2k, and it has a known end point. The tax incentives also aren't applied to used ones, and sales of those seem to be doing pretty well.

      There are a lot of things Tesla does that I disagree with, but I don't think they are being propped up entirely by tax credits on new cars.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
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    24. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:38 PM #273
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Why?

      And it's fine to have hopes and wants... but don't let them cloud your view of reality. Hoping EVs take over doesn't mean they will.
      well...I mean, you do agree that ICEs aren't a long-term future, right? are we arguing "what's the time frame for BEV adoption" or are we arguing that "ICEs will still be around 3,500 years from now"?

      and to answer your question "why I hope EVs take over sooner rather than later" is the waste we generate when commuting and sitting in traffic burning fuel. 100% useless.
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    25. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 03:39 PM #274
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Fine, I agree.

      But we have 280M registered cars in the US and 99.9% are ICE. You think the market share % will change if all incentives to all cars will stop?
      If gas shot to $10 a gallon in the US, if subsidies on gas exploration and production went away, people might make the switch much sooner. Especially if they see a bunch of EVs they never knew existed. Look how well the e-tron SUV is doing. Think that people used to more luxurious daily drivers are they going to get out of their large vehicles and go back to tiny econoboxes, or are they going to transition laterally into BEV versions of the cars they already are used to? BEV and PHEV CUVs will probably be a big market if subsidies on gas went away.

      This is moot because those subsides will not b going away any time soon.
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

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      08-14-2019 03:42 PM #275
      If EVs can reduce pollution and greenhouse gases by shifting the energy required to move people and goods from 100% fossil fuels in the highest pollution sources (ICE) to burning of fossil fuels and some growing percentage of renewable energy, thereby hold off rising seas and chronic flooding, then I think we would be wise to move in this direction as quickly as possible. I heard recently, that by 2100 scientists expect a 7 to 10 foot rise in sea level. That would put my current house, built just 4 years ago to FEMA height requirements PLUS 1 foot, with 1 to 3 feet of water in the garage. I won't be here to enjoy this added benefit of having a dock in my garage, but I think of what my grandchildren will have go go through over the course of their lives as $1 trillion worth of property in the USA becomes lost.

      Even in 25 years there will be a big impact on property due to flooding.



      Good luck to you young guys and girls out there.

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