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    1. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 10:02 PM #301
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      If you want to reduce the amount of crap people generate, why demand that they replace perfectly running ICEVs with new BEVs? Yes a new BEV is more environmentally friendly than a new ICEV. But again, if your real concern is about the environment, you would want people to buy as few news cars as possible.
      Quote Originally Posted by Boyz in da Park
      Proletariat, Bourgeoise - Everybody smellin' my potpourri...

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    3. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      08-14-2019 10:45 PM #302
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Even in 25 years there will be a big impact on property due to flooding.
      Miami is now getting flooding on sunny days and spending $400m to fight it. Just wait until seawater pierces the aquifer. **** is getting real
      Slow Car Fast

    4. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 06:10 AM #303
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      It was the same when we lived in Lexington, KY and in the suburbs of Detroit. Regular road trips all over the Eastern half of the country, very little daily driving. More in the past decade, after finishing college, since we live away from both our families and have a little bit more time and money - plus friends from school are now scattered all over.

      In MI it was normal to drive up to Mackinac or Chicago or wherever for an overnight, in KY it was normal to do the same for Nashville/Indy, in NY it's normal to do the same for NYC/Toronto/Philly/Pittsburgh/whatever.

      Normal people just sit home and drink White Claw?
      Same for us. Last weekend we were up in Northern Vt. The weekend before I was up there with a friend for a car show. The weekend before that the wife and I were in Portland, ME.

      I am a bit of a rarity (I guess) given I put on anywhere between 40-50k a year so right now there isn't a single EV with a range that will work without stopping for a charge.

      My wife on the other hand could get away with most of them since she does 50 miles each way. Problem is their office only has one charging station and it is usually being used by their company BEV. Other problem is she doesn't want an electric car.

    5. Member
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      08-15-2019 07:34 AM #304
      Quote Originally Posted by smoothsix View Post
      I, for one, am interested in the valid and reasonable opinions of someone who uses the term "EV jihadists"
      Honestly, "EV Jihadists" is too much.
      Internet forums bring out the most extreme opinions and the most hyperbolic adjectives.

    6. Member
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      08-15-2019 07:37 AM #305
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      Miami is now getting flooding on sunny days and spending $400m to fight it. Just wait until seawater pierces the aquifer. **** is getting real
      New Orleans and NYC are also a few storms away from their inhabitants walking around ankle deep in water.
      If we must spend money on building walls, we should really start build dykes around our low-lying cities.

    7. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 08:50 AM #306
      Quote Originally Posted by whitejeep1989 View Post
      New Orleans and NYC are also a few storms away from their inhabitants walking around ankle deep in water.
      If we must spend money on building walls, we should really start build dykes around our low-lying cities.
      Given that people have been allowed to build right up to the water forever, that would require the government taking vast amounts of property by eminent domain. And there are many places with barrier islands where dykes would be impossible.

    8. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:15 AM #307
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Hell, you don't have to leave this thread. worth_fixing wants EVs to replace all the "non cool" EVs and I'm not even gonna talk about ChrisV.
      Because I like to shoot down your ****ing stupidity doesn't make me an EV zealot. I've a gas convertible for a fun car and a gas Suburban for doing real work. I'm a car guy that likes all cars regardless of powerplant. How does that make me an EV zealot? Or worse than those that have succumbed to the cult of Elon? I just find your arguments to be stupid, closed minded and deserving of ridicule. So keep it up and I'll respond to your idiocy. Same with Golfy.

      EVs DO work for a large swath of the US right now with no other changes. The reason people don't see that is they listen to idiots like you who tell them they won't work and feed their fears, even when they will.

      You don't go into Miata and Golf R threads and say they are worthless because many people have larger families or tow large trailers on occasion. Edge cases are somehow not important in regular car threads, but somehow they become all consuming to you in EV threads. THAT'S what makes your arguments stupid, and why you get the responses you do from not just me, but many people who actually have, you know, experience.
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

    9. Member Chris_V's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:21 AM #308
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      You guys have far different driving habits than mine. 95+% of my miles are on the highway, probably 90% on trips over 100 miles round trip. 10-25k miles a year depending on the year.

      Do most people really never go anywhere?
      15k miles a year is 41 miles a day. And many studies have been done that show most people drive less than 40 miles a day. So yeah, most people don't drive all over the place. Remember, there's a reason leases are generally held to 12k miles a year. That's normal commute + occasional road trip mileage.
      "Like a fine Detroit wine, this vehicle has aged to budgetary perfection"

    10. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 09:52 AM #309
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      15k miles a year is 41 miles a day. And many studies have been done that show most people drive less than 40 miles a day. So yeah, most people don't drive all over the place. Remember, there's a reason leases are generally held to 12k miles a year. That's normal commute + occasional road trip mileage.
      Even if you hold it to only working-week days that's <60 miles/day.

      I have a 70 mile round trip commute, an EV would work fine for me. I even tried to buy one, but the local dealers here in SC wouldn't even entertain the notion of ordering one for me.

      In the end I prioritized moving closer to work first; I'll be cutting my commute down to <10 miles round trip. Then I'll be looking at an off-lease EV to handle all my daily running around and trips to see my folks (70 miles away) or my brother (100 miles away). A Bolt would handle both of those with ease, but I kinda have my eye on that new generation Soul EV, or a Niro/Kona EV.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    11. 08-15-2019 10:00 AM #310
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      You guys have far different driving habits than mine. 95+% of my miles are on the highway, probably 90% on trips over 100 miles round trip. 10-25k miles a year depending on the year.

      Do most people really never go anywhere?
      That is all possible on my EV and over 250-275 round trip is easily possible. You can drive a good bit today without any fast charging. Drive your 250 miles, come back home, plug in, and when you're ready to go in the morning you can go another 250+. If you include fast charging, depending on route... you can road trip 1000 miles in a day too. Not that you'd really want to! My last trip was a couple day jaunt from Wyoming through the Colorado mountains and back. ~950 miles that involved 2 fast charging stops and a destination charge. And that is really one of the worst areas for fast chargers if you look at the Tesla map. Pretty much anywhere outside the Rocky Mountain west (in the US) is much more densely spaced for chargers. I personally will take ~3 or 4 road trips a year outside a 300 mile radius. Half of those involve camping/backpacking where my car really isn't well suited to rough roads and terrain... so the Jeep gets used for that. Basically a few times a year is all that this car would be used for where it needs an extensive network.

    12. Member worth_fixing's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:06 AM #311
      when I'm done with the Mazda, I'll be looking at a compact or subconpact EV for about 98% of all our daily duties. My wife will keep a gasser for the remaining 2% and long road trips. I do 75 km round trip daily, and most of our stores are within 1-10km of our house...so we probably won't turn over a single ICE all week long.

      ...and i'll hunt for a used Miata for sh!ts + googles.
      http://badges.fuelly.com/images/sig-metric/286588.png
      Any car which holds together for a whole race is too heavy.

    13. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:13 AM #312
      Quote Originally Posted by silverlegacy View Post
      That is all possible on my EV and over 250-275 round trip is easily possible. You can drive a good bit today without any fast charging. Drive your 250 miles, come back home, plug in, and when you're ready to go in the morning you can go another 250+. If you include fast charging, depending on route... you can road trip 1000 miles in a day too. Not that you'd really want to! My last trip was a couple day jaunt from Wyoming through the Colorado mountains and back. ~950 miles that involved 2 fast charging stops and a destination charge. And that is really one of the worst areas for fast chargers if you look at the Tesla map. Pretty much anywhere outside the Rocky Mountain west (in the US) is much more densely spaced for chargers. I personally will take ~3 or 4 road trips a year outside a 300 mile radius. Half of those involve camping/backpacking where my car really isn't well suited to rough roads and terrain... so the Jeep gets used for that. Basically a few times a year is all that this car would be used for where it needs an extensive network.

      I don't own an EV yet but I've played around a lot with A Better Route Planner, that allows you to choose different EVs (Tesla, CCS, etc.) and see how much of a pain it would or wouldn't be to drive an EV to places.

      https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

      What I've found is today, in 2019, (not 10 years from now, not even 5 years from now) I can go to 90% of the far-flung places I've ever driven in a 240mi Tesla with charging stops that still work well with the bathroom frequency I'm used to. 300mi are even better and save more time. By the end of the year though with the Superchargers under construction, that figure's going to be close to 100%.
      CCS is a little farther behind but knowing what's under construction it'll hit 100% too by the time there's affordable 240+mi CCS BEVs with >100kW charging (Bolt, Niro, Kona, Soul, Leaf charge too slowly to truly be practical for the use case; I-Pace and e-Tron are too expensive).

      People bring up the "what if you like to road trip?" scenario and I think they'd be surprised at how well it works already.

    14. Member turbinepowered's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 10:15 AM #313
      Quote Originally Posted by worth_fixing View Post
      when I'm done with the Mazda, I'll be looking at a compact or subconpact EV for about 98% of all our daily duties. My wife will keep a gasser for the remaining 2% and long road trips. I do 75 km round trip daily, and most of our stores are within 1-10km of our house...so we probably won't turn over a single ICE all week long.

      ...and i'll hunt for a used Miata for sh!ts + googles.
      Assuming my Hyundai continues to be it's champ performer self, I'll probably be "selling" it to a family member to replace one of the older, limping along vehicles in the family rather than trading in.

      Bonus points: that may produce a "donor chassis" for an EV conversion. A Lancer, a Cavalier, an old Civic; those seem like pretty decent runabout candidates.
      Quote Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
      There is an area of a normal brain that lets the owner know the object works and needs to be left alone. Not all of us have it. It is like being colorblind.

    15. 08-15-2019 11:00 AM #314
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post

      I don't own an EV yet but I've played around a lot with A Better Route Planner, that allows you to choose different EVs (Tesla, CCS, etc.) and see how much of a pain it would or wouldn't be to drive an EV to places.

      https://abetterrouteplanner.com/

      What I've found is today, in 2019, (not 10 years from now, not even 5 years from now) I can go to 90% of the far-flung places I've ever driven in a 240mi Tesla with charging stops that still work well with the bathroom frequency I'm used to. 300mi are even better and save more time. By the end of the year though with the Superchargers under construction, that figure's going to be close to 100%.
      CCS is a little farther behind but knowing what's under construction it'll hit 100% too by the time there's affordable 240+mi CCS BEVs with >100kW charging (Bolt, Niro, Kona, Soul, Leaf charge too slowly to truly be practical for the use case; I-Pace and e-Tron are too expensive).

      People bring up the "what if you like to road trip?" scenario and I think they'd be surprised at how well it works already.
      I've used that sit quite a few times, and I'd actually say it is ~5-7% or so too conservative from what I experience. This is where Tesla currently has a bit of moat, though it will go away in time. Their fast charging network is the best and easiest to use by a good margin. Spots will need expanded with the growth of the Model 3 and soon Y, but the coverage is 90% there now. Get that to 95% and I'm perfectly happy. The outliers that remain and where I want to go are places that I probably shouldn't be driving a sedan. I'm expecting CCS to starting being similar in coverage in the next few years. When that happens, the few road trips a year cease to be an issue.

    16. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 11:12 AM #315
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      What I've found is today, in 2019, (not 10 years from now, not even 5 years from now) I can go to 90% of the far-flung places I've ever driven in a 240mi Tesla with charging stops that still work well with the bathroom frequency I'm used to.
      THIS!! Thank you for taking the time to do a little bit of research and actually looking at data. I wish more people honestly considered their use of an EV (or anything else in life) and then made decisions.
      Slow Car Fast

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      08-15-2019 11:15 AM #316
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      THIS!! Thank you for taking the time to do a little bit of research and actually looking at data. I wish more people honestly considered their use of an EV (or anything else in life) and then made decisions.
      If I had to pay for a Tesla, then range would not be a problem. I'd be staying home every weekend anyway.

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      08-15-2019 11:30 AM #317
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      I wish more people honestly considered their use of an EV (or anything else in life) and then made decisions.
      It'll happen eventually. But not until there are dozens upon dozens of affordable EV models in all shapes and sizes (combined with continued improvements to the grid). The current product offerings in the US and the price points of the nicer ones are the #1 reason (IMHO) as to why EV decision making has us at a 1-2% market share.

      Every car person I know has 2 thoughts on EVs. Teslas are great but too expensive and the rest aren't great or too much over their ICE counterpart. Range anxiety or the charging grid are secondary considerations over the lack of product offerings.

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      08-15-2019 11:47 AM #318
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      It'll happen eventually. But not until there are dozens upon dozens of affordable EV models in all shapes and sizes (combined with continued improvements to the grid). The current product offerings in the US and the price points of the nicer ones are the #1 reason (IMHO) as to why EV decision making has us at a 1-2% market share.

      Every car person I know has 2 thoughts on EVs. Teslas are great but too expensive and the rest aren't great or too much over their ICE counterpart. Range anxiety or the charging grid are secondary considerations over the lack of product offerings.
      Exactly. I was looking for a PHEV 3 row SUV as the spouse drives alot for errands and car pooling with kids and stuff. The PHEV makes absolute sense as we do travel long distance but majority of the trips are within 20 miles.

      However, I just can not justify the 12K difference in price (even with the federal rebate and after negotiations) and the lack of vehicles on the dealer lots to choose from. I found only 3 across 4 states for this PHEV model so I bought the ICE model instead. Price is absolutely a big issue.

      As for my daily car, would really like to have an EV for daily commuting but nothing interests me at the moment. If they really build it (at a reasonable cost) I am sure there will be more demand.
      Last edited by dhdd; 08-15-2019 at 11:50 AM.

    20. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      08-15-2019 01:05 PM #319
      Mixed signals from Volkswagen:


      "The diesel will continue to be part of the drive solution."
      Sebastian Willmann, Head of Diesel Engine Development at Volkswagen



      «Der Diesel war schon immer sehr sparsam, jetzt ist er auch noch absolut sauber.» Sebastian Willmann, Leiter Dieselmotoren-Entwicklung bei #volkswagen über die Zukunft des Dieselmotors. Das ganze Interview gibt es hier: https://blog.volkswagen.ch/technik-i...tian-willmann/


      "The diesel has always been very economical and now it is absolutely clean." Sebastian Willmann, Head of Diesel Engine Development at #volkswagen on the future of the diesel engine. The whole interview is here:
      https://translate.google.com/transla...an-willmann%2F

      With the 2.0 TDI EA288 Evo, Volkswagen is introducing a new generation of diesel engines that significantly undercut the limit values ​​of the current Euro 6d-Temp standard. Sebastian Willmann, Head of Diesel Engine Development at VW, on the hurdles a new engine needs to take and the future of the auto-ignition.

      Mr. Willmann, how does one proceed as an engineer in the development of a new engine like the diesel engine EA288 Evo?

      First of all, there is a requirement in the room to fulfill customer wishes and legal requirements. The task is to develop a marketable product within the scope of the statutory emission requirements. Of course, the costs are also an important criterion here. The diesel engine is very popular with customers because of its longevity, often with mileages of between 400,000 and 500,000 kilometers. The robustness is therefore given special consideration in the concept definition.

      How long have you been working at this stage of development?

      The development process of engines at Volkswagen goes on for several years and starts with the pre-development phase, which is followed by series development. At the end there will be the validation and the series approval.

      What hurdles must a new engine take until it is ready for production?

      The legal as well as the technical requirements must be fulfilled. The emissions are a focal point. With the introduction of RDE legislation (Real Driving Emissions), securing emissions in practice is a complex challenge. In addition, our engines are tested in challenging endurance periods of more than 1000 hours on the test bench and driving tests of more than 100,000 kilometers under more stringent conditions. Only then does an aggregate receive series approval.
      "The diesel has always been very economical, now it is absolutely clean."

      What was the goal in the development of the new diesel engine?

      Originally, the concept was set up to further reduce CO2 emissions and therefore also consumption. In the course of the development, however, the exhaust gas legislation has evolved, so that further technology components, such as the dual SCR system (see box), have been decided. Additional points such as the improvement of comfort and driving dynamics were also included in the specifications.

      The EA288 Evo is first used by Volkswagen in the Passat. Which models are also equipped with it?

      Shortly after the Passat follows the new Golf. Afterwards, the engine in the vehicles of the Modular Transverse Carrier will be successively introduced in three power levels with up to 200 hp.

      How is the comparison to the popular predecessor engine?

      We were able to reduce consumption by up to 10 g CO2 / km or about 0.4 l / 100 km compared to the already very efficient predecessor engine - and still increase its output. This is a significant step forward while reducing emissions.

      Now, many manufacturers have distanced themselves from the diesel engine or even goodbye. Do you think that he still has a future?

      The diesel will continue to be part of the drive solution for the VW brand in the future. He has always been very thrifty, now he is also absolutely clean. Vehicles with the latest emission technology, such as our current diesel engines, emit only very low nitrogen oxide emissions. Our models are at the level of the best competitors. Also, the comparison with gasoline engines, the new diesel no longer need to shy. Especially in heavier vehicles, where large ranges and a lot of torque are required and possibly even a trailer to be pulled, the diesel is still the most efficient drive today.

      Significantly below the nitrogen oxide limit

      In order to adapt the new four-cylinder EA288 Evo diesel engine to the very low emission limits of the Euro-6d-Temp standard, the raw emissions were reduced by various measures such as increasing the injection pressure. In addition, the exhaust aftertreatment system has been further developed. Sebastian Willmann explains: "In the passenger car sector, Volkswagen is using the double SCR system in the Passat for the first time. This allows us to meter the Adblue specifically before the two SCR catalysts. Compared to a simple SCR metering, the NOx emissions are further lowered while driving, with a tendency for lower Adblue consumption. Our Evo engine is well below the EU6 limit of 80 milligrams per kilometer on RDE cruises. »

      1 High efficiency, low consumption

      With a thermal efficiency of over 40 percent, the diesel is more efficient than the gasoline engine - and the CO2 emissions of the auto-ignition is correspondingly lower. It works with compression ignition, ie without spark plug, and therefore requires a higher compression. This also contributes to the increase in efficiency as the turbocharging. In addition, no throttle valve is required for power control, which largely avoids corresponding losses. Also important for the high efficiency is the diesel fuel itself: it contains more carbon per liter than gasoline.

      2 Big range

      The consumption of a diesel car is about 20 percent lower than that of a comparable gasoline engine. Thus, the diesel vehicle often runs with a tank filling more than 1000 kilometers. This is a very welcome time and comfort gain, especially for frequent travelers. Since high torques are available even at low speeds, the diesel can be operated very low-revolutions - which is good for consumption and smoothness.

      3 clean exhaust gases

      As a matter of principle, diesel combustion produces a higher proportion of pollutants than in gasoline engines - which mainly affects particulate matter and nitrogen oxides (NOx). However, these components can be effectively reduced thanks to the use of state-of-the-art technologies such as exhaust gas recirculation, oxidation catalytic converter, particulate filter and NOx storage catalytic converter. Volkswagen also uses urea injection systems (SCR) to meet the Euro 6d standards without any problems. In this case, a water-urea solution (Adblue) is injected into the exhaust line. The resulting ammonia converts the nitrogen oxides into water and non-toxic nitrogen.

      4 Low fuel costs

      The under-consumption of about 20 percent compared to a petrol engine leads to lower fuel costs - even in Switzerland, where the diesel fuel costs around five percent more than gasoline. For frequent travelers, the diesel is therefore the less expensive drive variant. In various European countries - such as Germany, France and Italy - the liter price for diesel is five to fifteen percent lower than that for gasoline, which further reduces the price per kilometer abroad.

    21. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      08-15-2019 01:21 PM #320
      Quote Originally Posted by troyguitar View Post
      If I had to pay for a Tesla, then range would not be a problem. I'd be staying home every weekend anyway.
      While the purchase price is still steep to get AWD or something bigger than a Model 3...

      if I owned one I know I'd probably drive more. 2.5 cents per mile home-charging (for day trip radius) and 6 cents per mile on the road (Supercharging) I'd head out and see the sights. Not every trip requires an expensive hotel room or pricey destination.

      On that note, while I couldn't afford one I'd ****ing love a Tesla Class-B RV. See the country, sleep wherever, operating costs minimal. Can even charge up the battery at campsites.


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      08-15-2019 01:29 PM #321
      ^^^ regarding that entire article.

      There is no way VW makes a significant investment in a whole new generation of diesel engines based on their recent history and the German government mandate put in place unless...the German mandate (both the one for 2020 and the one for 2030) are showing absolutely zero chance of success. (resulting in little punishment for car companies that don't go all-in on EV)

      For those that don't know or forget, in 2016 the German govt said they would have:
      - 1 millions EVs on the road by 2020 (out of 45 million cars)
      - 100% of all new car sale have to be EV by 2030

      That first one, not even close - as of 12/31/18 they were at 67K.
      Last edited by tbvvw; 08-15-2019 at 01:36 PM.

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