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    1. Member gloaming88's Avatar
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      Sep 16th, 2015
      Location
      Philadelphia
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      241
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      MK4 BMP R32; MK6 Golf TDI Stage 3 (Sold)
      07-26-2019 11:51 AM #1
      I had my timing chains replaced this past March and the car runs and drives
      fine from what I can tell, but I just got a VCDS and checked my timing
      and the values seem way off.

      The blocks read as follows on a fully warm engine:
      208: -6.0 (spec is 0)
      209: -1.0 (spec is 0)
      90: Duty cycle= 52.2% Adjustment Bank 1= 22.0 (spec is 0)
      91: Duty cycle= 45.5% Adjustment Bank 1= 3.0 (spec is 22.0)

      It appears block 90 and 91 signals have been reversed and I’m not sure
      why (and the duty cycle is much higher than I think it should be).
      Also the spread between 208 and 209 is greater than 3.

      I did some digging on the forums and found that it’s possible (and
      very easy) to accidentally swap the cam phasers when putting the
      engine back together. But I peaked in through my oil cap and was able
      to see that the part number for the intake phaser and it was installed
      correctly. Also, I made sure the cam sensor wires were not mixed up
      (they were in correct). I’m thought it’s possible that the cam
      position sensors themselves could be shot at this vehicles age, but I replaced them the other day and the values remain unchanged.

      Again, car seems to drive the same as it always has and it isn’t
      throwing any codes, but those mixed up values for blocks 90 and 91
      have me puzzled and concerned. Not to mention the spread of 5 between
      208 and 209. From the forums, I read that a deviation on any of the
      blocks of ~11 corresponds to 1 skipped tooth. The deviation on blocks
      208 and 209 are nowhere near that, but they are much further from zero
      than I expected. The deviation for 90 and 91 could potentially point
      to two skipped teeth though (I think).

      Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don’t want to jump the gun
      and assume the shop mistimed the engine, but I feel like anything is
      possible.

      Based upon those readings should I assume the car is mistimed by a tooth or two or is there something else I missed.

      The car also is getting a random misfire in all cylinders according to the data logging, but isn’t throwing any codes. It’s always kinda hiccuped or hesitated around 1800-2000 rpms when accelerating from a dead stop. I feel that could be fuel injector related, but thought it may be relevant or related to this matter.

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    3. 08-06-2019 09:48 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by gloaming88 View Post
      I had my timing chains replaced this past March and the car runs and drives
      fine from what I can tell, but I just got a VCDS and checked my timing
      and the values seem way off.

      The blocks read as follows on a fully warm engine:
      208: -6.0 (spec is 0)
      209: -1.0 (spec is 0)
      90: Duty cycle= 52.2% Adjustment Bank 1= 22.0 (spec is 0)
      91: Duty cycle= 45.5% Adjustment Bank 1= 3.0 (spec is 22.0)

      It appears block 90 and 91 signals have been reversed and I’m not sure
      why (and the duty cycle is much higher than I think it should be).
      Also the spread between 208 and 209 is greater than 3.

      I did some digging on the forums and found that it’s possible (and
      very easy) to accidentally swap the cam phasers when putting the
      engine back together. But I peaked in through my oil cap and was able
      to see that the part number for the intake phaser and it was installed
      correctly. Also, I made sure the cam sensor wires were not mixed up
      (they were in correct). I’m thought it’s possible that the cam
      position sensors themselves could be shot at this vehicles age, but I replaced them the other day and the values remain unchanged.

      Again, car seems to drive the same as it always has and it isn’t
      throwing any codes, but those mixed up values for blocks 90 and 91
      have me puzzled and concerned. Not to mention the spread of 5 between
      208 and 209. From the forums, I read that a deviation on any of the
      blocks of ~11 corresponds to 1 skipped tooth. The deviation on blocks
      208 and 209 are nowhere near that, but they are much further from zero
      than I expected. The deviation for 90 and 91 could potentially point
      to two skipped teeth though (I think).

      Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I don’t want to jump the gun
      and assume the shop mistimed the engine, but I feel like anything is
      possible.

      Based upon those readings should I assume the car is mistimed by a tooth or two or is there something else I missed.

      The car also is getting a random misfire in all cylinders according to the data logging, but isn’t throwing any codes. It’s always kinda hiccuped or hesitated around 1800-2000 rpms when accelerating from a dead stop. I feel that could be fuel injector related, but thought it may be relevant or related to this matter.
      These engine have a "judder" when revved from 670 to 2000 and not under load. It's just a character of the engine with it being a short angle V.

      The fact the readings are more than 2 apart is worrying and it would seem is mis-timed. There is a possibility that your cam adjuster pullys (VVT units) are siezed, so you would need to see if they are freely able to **** back into the tension position. I assume you took the readings once the car was up to temperature?

      With that above being said, the cam chain needs to come off again I am afraid. Not what you want to hear, but essential to get to the bottom of it. It may be that it's had the chain done before and previously been mis-timed, which is why it drives like it always has. You know the VVT is only for low dow revs to get past emmisions right? So once over (I think) 3,250rpm, it is irrelevant.

      I know you say your trusted mechanic did the swap for you, but this engine is a pain in the arse to time up correctly and it would not shock me if he had not adhered to the correct procedure. Unless you were there every step of the way of the install, you're not going to be able to confirm.

      I'd urge you to watch all 6 parts of this video session of how to time this lump up. Especially how to **** back and hold the chain in tension, and to make sure the rear tensioner is held in place when rotating to check timed up

      https://youtu.be/VOtrlFvmqU0
      Last edited by McPikie; 08-06-2019 at 09:56 AM.

    4. Member gloaming88's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 16th, 2015
      Location
      Philadelphia
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      241
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      MK4 BMP R32; MK6 Golf TDI Stage 3 (Sold)
      08-06-2019 10:04 AM #3
      Yes. Readings were taken once the car was up to temp and they concern me. Thanks for the advice. I’m going to have to think about what I want to do.

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    6. Member gloaming88's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 16th, 2015
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      MK4 BMP R32; MK6 Golf TDI Stage 3 (Sold)
      08-06-2019 10:18 AM #4
      Assuming it was timed properly. If the cam phasers were seized before and after the job (they were not changed) could that account for the discrepancy?

    7. 08-06-2019 11:35 AM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by gloaming88 View Post
      Assuming it was timed properly. If the cam phasers were seized before and after the job (they were not changed) could that account for the discrepancy?
      The exhaust cam has barely any movement compared to the inlet cam, so 3 doesn't sound too bad in my view (pretty sure spec allows for up to 3)

      Valid for both MK4 and MK5 R32:
      • Blocks 208 & 209 should be as close as possible to 0°, the spread should not exceed 3°. The absolute wear limit is 8° spread whether + or minus. If the spread is well above 3° but under the limit, then chain & guide replacement should be considered. Given your spread is over that, it's out of time. This would suggest a jumped tooth, rather than worn sprockets.

      Cross examination of the intermediate shaft values of blocks 90 & 91:

      Golf 4 R32 only (intake adjustment range 52°/exhaust adjustment range 22°):
      • Block 90 (exhaust) set-point is 0°, no matter the values in blocks 208 & 209, at a duty ratio of about 15.3%. The actual value should not be more than 0.5° out (Valid for both OEM & aftermarket cams). If the values are way off from 0° the timing chain may be mistimed or skipped. Around 11.25° deviation corresponds to a skip of 1 tooth.
      • Block 91 (intake) set-point is 22° between idle to about 1200RPM, no matter what the values read in blocks 208 & 209, at a duty ratio of about 15.3%.
      The actual value should not be more than 0.5° out (valid for both OEM & aftermarket cams). If the value is not close to 22° the timing chain may be mistimed or skipped. Around 11.25 ° deviation corresponds to a skip of 1 tooth.

      I genuinely think the only thing you can do is pull it all apart again, make sure the bottom end is TDC by checking the crank pully AND intermediate sprocket, then getting the VVT units off and making sure they are clear and free moving. Install the front black chain guide first, time ou the inlet sprocket so there is no slack between the guide and sprocket with it clocked back correctly (you can adjust the cam itself ever so slightly to do this) and then go from there. As per the vid, make sure the back tensioner is pressed in when rotating to make sure that it all still timed up.

      As is known faulty cam phase sensors cause spurious readings. However a surprising point to note is that high values are not always indicative of worn guides or a stretched chain! There have been instances in Germany whereby poor service intervals (Longlife) has gummed up the cam variators/VVT assemblies/solenoids resulting in high values that’s clearly appeared to be worn chains but after several oil flushes and filter changes returned to almost perfect ‘out the factory’ values. There appears to be some correlation between the intercam timing spread and the intermediate shaft values that points to this. If the actual values values are slow to match the requested values then his points to a gummed up VVT system or the inlet gauze possibly being blocked. My gauze was completely shafted.
      Last edited by McPikie; 08-06-2019 at 11:37 AM.

    8. Member gloaming88's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 16th, 2015
      Location
      Philadelphia
      Posts
      241
      Cars
      MK4 BMP R32; MK6 Golf TDI Stage 3 (Sold)
      08-06-2019 11:48 AM #6
      I replaced the cam position sensors about two weeks ago and the readings were unchanged. No CEL’s or anything. Tearing it down is probably beyond my capabilities, nor do I have anywhere to work on my car (city life). So this means I’ll have to be taking it back to the mechanic.

    9. 08-07-2019 03:46 AM #7
      Not the camp position sensor, the solenoids

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