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    1. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 04:08 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by 66Satellite View Post
      I liked this thread better when it was about Alfa vs BMW
      Exactly. The Tesla leg humping has to stop.
      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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    3. Senior Member
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      06-12-2019 04:18 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      So we give Tesla crap for not making cars fast enough and now we give them crap for actually having some inventory like every other OEM in the US? And on your sustain comment, please clarify if you think monthly sales will fall below 3 series sales and if so, in what time frame.
      1) Tesla has artificially inflated market demand in the US by exporting more Model 3's to other markets. Elon Musk has tweeted photos of Model 3's being loaded onto car carrier ships bound for other markets. Tesla could have used those cars to fulfill pre-order reservations (like ours), but chose to keep demand artificially high in the US while giving them news headlines of high percentages of cars being sold in EV tax credit-rich countries like Norway.

      2) Tesla still isn't widely offering the (near mythical) $35,000 Model 3; in fact, I know of only two that have been purchased/leased (one to a TCL member). I realize this has to do with their ability to actually make a profit on those cars, but a good deal of demand has evaporated as a range of affordable EV's have come onto the market since the (near mythical) $35k Model 3 was announced. (I know; we had two reservations made on the day of the launch announcement. And yet we ended up with a Chevy Bolt in our fleet 2.5 years ago. We requested refunds of both reservations a year ago when it became clear the $35k Model 3 was vaporware.)

      3) As of July 2019, the Federal tax credit for Tesla will be reduced to $1,875. That makes even a $45k Model 3--which is a lightly optioned car--seem like a fairly poor value against EV's that still have the full $7,500 tax credit available.

      Combined with the fact that gas prices seem to be stable in a range that has most US consumers feeling comfortable with buying larger, less fuel efficient vehicles, and you have a recipe for nothing but bad news for Model 3 sales figures.

      (Note: I'd love to have a Model 3 Performance as my daily driver. I'd likely choose one over an M3 and certainly would choose one over a 340i. However, I have no illusions as to the potential viability of Tesla, nor the headwinds that they face in sustaining both manufacturing production and vehicle sales unless we see other factors change, like the full $7,500 Federal tax credit being renewed.)

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      06-12-2019 04:21 PM #78
      Back on topic: I think I'm going to stop by the local Alfa dealer this weekend and have myself a test drive. I've driven the Giulia QV a couple of times, but not the Ti or Stelvio. If the lease deals are truly great...

    5. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 04:27 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Exactly. The Tesla leg humping has to stop.
      If the A4 or XE or ATS/CT4, etc. were the sales leaders or better cars in this segment, people would bring them up too. Actually surprised no one's talking about the C300, but I imagine it's not quite as sporting as the Alfa.

      Model 3 is the elephant in the room in this segment. It is (size, performance, handling) and isn't (luxury, brand, fit & finish) a direct competitor, so it's always going to come up. It need not take over the thread, mind you, but I don't know if you can have an "entry luxury" (are we still calling it that?) comparo and say "ICEs only, EVs have to sit out."

    6. Member S4cabriofox's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 05:40 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      If the A4 or XE or ATS/CT4, etc. were the sales leaders or better cars in this segment, people would bring them up too. Actually surprised no one's talking about the C300, but I imagine it's not quite as sporting as the Alfa.

      Model 3 is the elephant in the room in this segment. It is (size, performance, handling) and isn't (luxury, brand, fit & finish) a direct competitor, so it's always going to come up. It need not take over the thread, mind you, but I don't know if you can have an "entry luxury" (are we still calling it that?) comparo and say "ICEs only, EVs have to sit out."
      It certainly is a "luxury brand." They just don't make luxury cars.

    7. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 05:43 PM #81
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      If the A4 or XE or ATS/CT4, etc. were the sales leaders or better cars in this segment, people would bring them up too. Actually surprised no one's talking about the C300, but I imagine it's not quite as sporting as the Alfa.
      Because the thread is about the Alfa and the BMW until someone derailed it on pace 2?

      I feel like John McClain...

      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

      Quote Originally Posted by The Igneous Faction
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      06-12-2019 05:59 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      If the A4 or XE or ATS/CT4, etc. were the sales leaders or better cars in this segment, people would bring them up too. Actually surprised no one's talking about the C300, but I imagine it's not quite as sporting as the Alfa.

      Model 3 is the elephant in the room in this segment. It is (size, performance, handling) and isn't (luxury, brand, fit & finish) a direct competitor, so it's always going to come up. It need not take over the thread, mind you, but I don't know if you can have an "entry luxury" (are we still calling it that?) comparo and say "ICEs only, EVs have to sit out."
      Nope. The facts are that BMW comparisons gets clicks and even better if the people think BMW has a good shot at losing.

      I think the B9 has been the segment leader in overall package since its inception, but I'd guess that Audi comparisons only get big clicks if BMW is involved. In my mind, the A4 is definitely better than the F30 LCI and the W205. Can't comment on the Alfa or G20 yet.

      Same deal with the whole Model 3 Performance vs aging F80 M3 track comparison that set the internet in an uproar. Why not compare something faster like an RS5 or C63S vs the Tesla? Because it wouldn't get the clicks. People want to see BMW lose. Once something is the benchmark, it will be the benchmark in most people's eyes for much longer than it's the best.

    9. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 05:59 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by Mazda 3s View Post
      Because the thread is about the Alfa and the BMW until someone derailed it on pace 2?

      I feel like John McClain...
      The thread is about the article. The premise of the article is how whether the new BMW can reclaim the best-driving sport sedan title that it lost to increasing competition.

      For decades, the BMW 3 Series was the epitome of the luxury sport sedan. Its great handling, punchy power, and dynamic ride made it the leader of its class. "Ultimate Driving Machine" was more uncontested truth than mere advertising slogan.

      But the Bavarian brand took a left turn with the previous generation, which lacked the emotion and precision that so defined the 3 Series of yore. Other brands—like Alfa Romeo—used that misstep to jump in the game, creating exciting machines that made up for the BMW's shortcomings. Now in its seventh generation, the 2019 BMW 330i is facing stiff competition.

      With the Giulia, the Italian brand created one of the best sport sedans in the market. We liked it so much that we named it Car of the Year in 2018, mostly for reintroducing the world to the concept of thrilling driving dynamics in sedan form. In a recent comparison, the Quadrifoglio was superior on Streets of Willow, staying ahead of the Tesla Model 3 Performance and Jaguar I-Pace. With that in mind, we asked ourselves, if we are evaluating solely from the perspective of spirited driving, can the 3 Series retake the best-driving sport sedan title from the Alfa Romeo Giulia?
      They judged Giulia to be king of the class based on their previous evaluations, so it got the invite, but everyone's got an opinion. This thread/article are ultimately about where the BMW falls in its class, which Tesla et al also fall into.

    10. Senior Member syntrix's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 06:02 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      This thread/article are ultimately about where the BMW falls in its class, which Tesla et al also fall into.
      Nailed it. Let's talk about dogs and poop facials instead.
      MOEW: ٩(●̮̮̃•̃)۶ Zomg Zombies ٩(-̮̮̃-̃)۶ ٩(-̮̮̃•̃)۶ ٩(×̯×)۶ ¯\(°_o)/¯
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    11. Member 66Satellite's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 06:07 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      Back on topic: I think I'm going to stop by the local Alfa dealer this weekend and have myself a test drive. I've driven the Giulia QV a couple of times, but not the Ti or Stelvio. If the lease deals are truly great...
      Awesome, please post your impressions!

    12. 06-12-2019 06:25 PM #86
      Quote Originally Posted by syntrix View Post
      Why is this thread about Tesla now? Weird.

      I have a 3 series BMW in hatch format, aka F31. Larger than an alltrack, and much better service. VW had exactly 3 loaners and weeks to get in with a major problem, and it's a base model passat for the loaner. BMW is like, here's a more expensive and nicer loaner without asking, oh wait it's already out front ready to go? BMW sets the mark for service, and oil changes are usually cheaper or on par with a VW.
      Because one guy keeps bringing up the Model 3 in every sports sedan discussion.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    13. Nobody messes with me. Not. 😂 ChillOutPossum's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 07:15 PM #87
      Cliffs so far: people are sour grapes that Tesla is smoking established automakers without even trying.

    14. 06-12-2019 08:02 PM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Cliffs so far: people are sour grapes that Tesla is smoking established automakers without even trying.
      I'm actually happy that Musk is shaking up the industry and clearly annoying the established manufacturers. I think that's a HUGE positive, because if forces the main stream to compete harder and this is better for the consumer. However Tesla has a cult following and many of these folks buy based on the cult of Elon. Once that has played out in the next decade we will see if Tesla can make it on their own or fail. I hope the company DOES survive and thrive. Upstarts are GOOD for what ails the automotive industry and it has been ailing for some time now.

      That being said the Giulia smokes the Tesla handily when it comes to sporting pretensions and many others ways as well.

    15. Nobody messes with me. Not. 😂 ChillOutPossum's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 08:12 PM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by AC1DD View Post
      sporting pretensions
      Is this the new "driving dynamics" for TCL?

    16. Member MonsterM's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 08:19 PM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Is this the new "driving dynamics" for TCL?
      Tesla S P85D 3:17.4


      Accord 3:18.4



      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/



    17. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 08:28 PM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      Back on topic: I think I'm going to stop by the local Alfa dealer this weekend and have myself a test drive. I've driven the Giulia QV a couple of times, but not the Ti or Stelvio. If the lease deals are truly great...
      You're going to enjoy yourself.

      I have 24 hour test drive of a Giulia Quad starting tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait.
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    18. Nobody messes with me. Not. 😂 ChillOutPossum's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 08:31 PM #92
      Quote Originally Posted by MonsterM View Post
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Is this the new "driving dynamics" for TCL?
      Tesla S P85D 3:17.4


      Accord 3:18.4



      https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/


      That's crazy. I know the Accord isn't at the top of the sports sedan speed list, but still... a full second faster is no small feat.

    19. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 08:41 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      You're going to enjoy yourself.

      I have 24 hour test drive of a Giulia Quad starting tomorrow afternoon. I can't wait.
      Post up your impression as I'm interested in hearing your thoughts. I'm assuming you'll have some time to play with it a little?

      Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

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      06-12-2019 10:58 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      Back on topic: I think I'm going to stop by the local Alfa dealer this weekend and have myself a test drive. I've driven the Giulia QV a couple of times, but not the Ti or Stelvio. If the lease deals are truly great...
      i blasted some inquiries to about 3 dealers after seeing this thread.

      The alfa dealer in Ohio - Strongville has some 2018s leftover and are almost 15K cheaper than MSRP. Please get it before I do.

    21. Member 50fridge's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 11:29 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      You are presuming that everyone views BEVs to be universally better than ICE equivalents... that's not the case.

      And everyone I know who has driven a Giulia loves it. The point of the Giulia is that it's a practical and luxurious car that's fun to drive. Much like the Model 3 and old 3 series'.
      It seems like luxury car consumers in America are not really interested in the Giulia. I do not even really like the Model 3, but 140k+ cars sold last year is pretty impressive. That is what the 3 series was selling not too long ago back in 2014 and 2015. I am sure it would be a fun car to drive but to purchase or lease the car is another story.
      Quote Originally Posted by Uber Wagon View Post
      I think Giulia is a nice addition to now-defunct sports sedan segment. It sounds like a good driver and styling is on point, I'd even say sexy. Subpar reliability and heavy depreciation means that Giulia must be leased, not bought. It would make an excellent used buy as long as comprehensive extended warranty is available.
      Yeah I agree about it would make sense to lease one over purchase. From sales perspective though the Giulia is not really stealing any sales away from other luxury brands.
      Last edited by 50fridge; 06-12-2019 at 11:32 PM.

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      06-12-2019 11:50 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Manual version has not got great reviews and Hyundai's 2.0T kind of sucks, at least in bigger cars
      Don't believe the reviews, there's nothing wrong with the manual.

      At the price point of the 330i M Sport and Giulia Ti, you'd be comparing them to a fully loaded G70 3.3TT anyway. And it would beat them both.

      Last edited by GTI 20v; 06-12-2019 at 11:59 PM.
      Quote Originally Posted by DUBLUV401 View Post
      I am not here for grammer lesson's

    23. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 11:55 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Is this the new "driving dynamics" for TCL?
      “Sporting pretensions.” I love that; let’s make it stick. It only emphasizes the pretence of being sporting, and not actually having a sporting nature. It’s kind of like “fake rich.”

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      06-13-2019 12:14 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by Lucian1988 View Post
      i blasted some inquiries to about 3 dealers after seeing this thread.

      The alfa dealer in Ohio - Strongville has some 2018s leftover and are almost 15K cheaper than MSRP. Please get it before I do.
      Seriously??

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      06-13-2019 07:47 AM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by GTI 20v View Post
      Don't believe the reviews, there's nothing wrong with the manual.

      At the price point of the 330i M Sport and Giulia Ti, you'd be comparing them to a fully loaded G70 3.3TT anyway. And it would beat them both.
      I agree about the G70 manual. I've driven it quite a bit, and it's fine. Not exactly a Honda shifter, but it's better than the 128i I drove a few months ago. The reviews make it sound like it's a manual Suzuki Forenza.

      I really like the G70, but it's just a touch too small for me. The Alfa has a bigger back seat and trunk as well as a slightly better ride.

      Tom

    26. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-13-2019 08:37 AM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      Seriously??
      Here's the Alfa dealer who is letting me have an overnight test drive of a Giulia Quad.

      NOTE THE PRICES.

      https://www.alfaromeousaofevanston.c...-anchor-trim-2
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