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    1. Member
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      06-12-2019 10:15 AM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      They actually give you the choice of a red or blue pill after you sign for it. It's wild

      I just find it crazy that this little car from an OEM with questional build quality, a weak track record of service, and dubious future can not only outsell an established model but nearly a whole segment. Then you drive one and get why it's so good and different. So ChillOutPossum has a great question. Why buy a 3 Series or Giulia over one? Outside of charging at home, is it the noise? The shifting? The familiarity?
      For me, they have zero emotion. If the Model 3 was built as a hatch, that would bring it a level of usefullness that would negate some of the lack of emotion. As long as it is a sedan (and the Model Y is not an answer for me) I'll pass for a Giulia.

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      06-12-2019 10:24 AM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      They actually give you the choice of a red or blue pill after you sign for it. It's wild

      I just find it crazy that this little car from an OEM with questional build quality, a weak track record of service, and dubious future can not only outsell an established model but nearly a whole segment. Then you drive one and get why it's so good and different. So ChillOutPossum has a great question. Why buy a 3 Series or Giulia over one? Outside of charging at home, is it the noise? The shifting? The familiarity?
      Model 3 is

      - uglier
      - not as easy for all uses (I hate stopping on road trips)
      - more expensive to insure
      - harder to get serviced/repaired
      - built/waranteed by company on shaky ground
      - moth to a flame for self-victimizing fanboys

      I'm sure the car itself is great but there are too many red flags in the context of ownership. Unsurprisingly it seems the kind of people willing to look past that deem Tesla ownership to be a religious calling. No effing thanks

    4. Member Uber Wagon's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:29 AM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by 50fridge View Post
      I do not get the point of the Alfa Romeo Giulia. It is still a heavy 4 cylinder automatic transmission luxury sedan with iffy build quality and heavy depreciation.
      I think Giulia is a nice addition to now-defunct sports sedan segment. It sounds like a good driver and styling is on point, I'd even say sexy. Subpar reliability and heavy depreciation means that Giulia must be leased, not bought. It would make an excellent used buy as long as comprehensive extended warranty is available.
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      06-12-2019 10:34 AM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by 50fridge View Post
      The new 330i is nicer than the pre-LCI and LCI F30 3 series for sure. But the pricing on it is insane. I would not say it is nice enough to have a price premium over the Audi A4 or Lexus IS. Especially with the Tesla Model 3 undercutting BMW significantly, and that is full a fully electric car. I have seen more Tesla Model 3's than new 3 series in my area and that makes sense with the Model 3 selling so well nationally and is heavily outselling the 3 series. It is too bad the build quality on the Model 3 is hit or miss. Hopefully, Tesla also gets rid of Elon Musk who is a disaster for the company and is anti-union. I do not get the point of the Alfa Romeo Giulia. It is still a heavy 4 cylinder automatic transmission luxury sedan with iffy build quality and heavy depreciation.
      You are presuming that everyone views BEVs to be universally better than ICE equivalents... that's not the case.

      And everyone I know who has driven a Giulia loves it. The point of the Giulia is that it's a practical and luxurious car that's fun to drive. Much like the Model 3 and old 3 series'.

    6. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:39 AM #55
      Quote Originally Posted by TDIBUGMAN View Post
      For me, they have zero emotion. If the Model 3 was built as a hatch, that would bring it a level of usefullness that would negate some of the lack of emotion. As long as it is a sedan (and the Model Y is not an answer for me) I'll pass for a Giulia.
      YOu need to drive the Model 3 before dismissing it as zero emotion.

      Because I do not equate engine noise with emotion.
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      06-12-2019 10:44 AM #56
      RE: Model 3

      Am I the only one that thinks the driver's seating position in this car is awful and kind of a dealbreaker? If felt to me like it was built for short Chinese people (no racist). 6'2" with a fairly long torso and it doesn't work for me.

      I really enjoyed the power delivery, ride/handling balance and one pedal driving, but I wasn't a fan of just about everything else about it.

      The Alfa piques my interest, but I'm not sure I would end up leasing one all things considered. Gonna drive one soon either way.

    8. Member RENOG's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:48 AM #57
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Model 3 is

      - uglier
      - not as easy for all uses (I hate stopping on road trips)
      - more expensive to insure
      - harder to get serviced/repaired
      - built/waranteed by company on shaky ground
      - moth to a flame for self-victimizing fanboys

      I'm sure the car itself is great but there are too many red flags in the context of ownership. Unsurprisingly it seems the kind of people willing to look past that deem Tesla ownership to be a religious calling. No effing thanks

      I'd imagine that this was the exact same expression word-for-almost-word used early turn of the century when the first automobile were introduced when compared to the horse.

    9. Member
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      06-12-2019 10:52 AM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by RENOG View Post
      I'd imagine that this was the exact same expression word-for-almost-word used early turn of the century when the first automobile were introduced when compared to the horse.
      Of course, and that's kind of obvious IMO. I'm stoked for driving electric cars. I just don't want to buy a Tesla Model 3 in June 2019.

    10. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:55 AM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Model 3 is

      - uglier
      - not as easy for all uses (I hate stopping on road trips)
      - more expensive to insure
      - harder to get serviced/repaired
      - built/waranteed by company on shaky ground
      - moth to a flame for self-victimizing fanboys

      I'm sure the car itself is great but there are too many red flags in the context of ownership. Unsurprisingly it seems the kind of people willing to look past that deem Tesla ownership to be a religious calling. No effing thanks
      Huh? You can say the same about a Ferrari. uglier for some, can't carry **** from Costco, def more expensive to insure, def harder to work on, and have hardcore fan boys. Just because folks are willing to buy a car with some red flags doesnt mean its a religious calling. Just people just love the car like they used to love an old 3 series. If you rather have a 3 series or the Alfa, then cool man but lets agree on sales numbers. It's outselling them handily. Why? Is everyone in on the cult?
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    11. Senior Member
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      06-12-2019 11:17 AM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      They actually give you the choice of a red or blue pill after you sign for it. It's wild

      I just find it crazy that this little car from an OEM with questional build quality, a weak track record of service, and dubious future can not only outsell an established model but nearly a whole segment. Then you drive one and get why it's so good and different. So ChillOutPossum has a great question. Why buy a 3 Series or Giulia over one? Outside of charging at home, is it the noise? The shifting? The familiarity?
      It won't sustain, though. Unsold Model 3's are piling up in rented parking lots here. The last person I know who bought one had their choice of basically any configuration and color they wanted with a one day wait. And I live somewhere that Tesla's are commonplace.

      As to why someone would buy a BMW or Alfa:

      -Brand cachet
      -Interior quality (BMW)
      -Interior controls (touch screen just isn't awesome for primary controls, sorry)
      -Styling (Model 3 is a bit awkward in some respects)
      -Better rear cabin space (G20 3 series wins ingress/egress over the Model 3's compromised rear door openings and sloping roofline)
      -Lease deals (in the case of the BMW)
      -Don't have easy access to charging at home/work
      -Tesla's questionable future

      Those are just the 'off the top of my head' things.

    12. 06-12-2019 11:33 AM #61
      Tesla Model 3 and X are just plain ugly to me. I don't see the appeal in such an ugly car. They look like they are half finished, in terms of styling. That's a deal killer for me.

    13. Senior Member syntrix's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 11:33 AM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by TDIBUGMAN View Post
      For me, they have zero emotion. If the Model 3 was built as a hatch, that would bring it a level of usefullness that would negate some of the lack of emotion. As long as it is a sedan (and the Model Y is not an answer for me) I'll pass for a Giulia.
      Quote Originally Posted by JackStraw79 View Post
      RE: Model 3

      Am I the only one that thinks the driver's seating position in this car is awful and kind of a dealbreaker? If felt to me like it was built for short Chinese people (no racist). 6'2" with a fairly long torso and it doesn't work for me.

      I really enjoyed the power delivery, ride/handling balance and one pedal driving, but I wasn't a fan of just about everything else about it.

      The Alfa piques my interest, but I'm not sure I would end up leasing one all things considered. Gonna drive one soon either way.
      Why is this thread about Tesla now? Weird.

      I have a 3 series BMW in hatch format, aka F31. Larger than an alltrack, and much better service. VW had exactly 3 loaners and weeks to get in with a major problem, and it's a base model passat for the loaner. BMW is like, here's a more expensive and nicer loaner without asking, oh wait it's already out front ready to go? BMW sets the mark for service, and oil changes are usually cheaper or on par with a VW.
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    14. Senior Member dubdaze68's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 11:39 AM #63
      I still worry about the lack of FCA support in smaller cities. Many of the FIAT/Alfa showrooms that got in on the ground floor with the 500 and built "studios", have mostly gone the way of the dodo around here. There is one dealer in an extreme outlying area that is way more concerned with moving Ram pickups than dealing with even routine service on 500 Abarths, let alone the 4C and Giulia. That, and FCA made so many rules for even getting a dealership that they were limited to begin with.


      I love Alfa, I hope that they see the US market worth is with such low sales.....But then again, Jaguar keeps plugging along.
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    15. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 11:53 AM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      It won't sustain, though. Unsold Model 3's are piling up in rented parking lots here. The last person I know who bought one had their choice of basically any configuration and color they wanted with a one day wait. And I live somewhere that Tesla's are commonplace.
      So we give Tesla crap for not making cars fast enough and now we give them crap for actually having some inventory like every other OEM in the US? And on your sustain comment, please clarify if you think monthly sales will fall below 3 series sales and if so, in what time frame.

      Quote Originally Posted by dubdaze68 View Post
      I still worry about the lack of FCA support in smaller cities. Many of the FIAT/Alfa showrooms that got in on the ground floor with the 500 and built "studios", have mostly gone the way of the dodo around here.
      This. The Alfa dealer here closed up shop so the nearest one is in Albany 3 hours away or Boston 3.5 hours away. And they dont have rangers that come to your house. With sketchy reliability, will another local FCA dealer honor the warranty?
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      06-12-2019 12:38 PM #65
      Quote Originally Posted by RENOG View Post
      I'd imagine that this was the exact same expression word-for-almost-word used early turn of the century when the first automobile were introduced when compared to the horse.
      Why cherry pick a successful tech transition? I'm sure people were equally optimistic about rotary engines, the Caddy V8-6-4 etc. Horses vs cars have jack **** to do with ICE vs BEVs, and much of BEVs' future success hinges on what essentially boils down to faith and magic ("something wonderful will happen and they will be viable and profitable!")

      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      Huh? You can say the same about a Ferrari. uglier for some, can't carry **** from Costco, def more expensive to insure, def harder to work on, and have hardcore fan boys. Just because folks are willing to buy a car with some red flags doesnt mean its a religious calling. Just people just love the car like they used to love an old 3 series. If you rather have a 3 series or the Alfa, then cool man but lets agree on sales numbers. It's outselling them handily. Why? Is everyone in on the cult?
      Nobody is declaring Ferraris to be the second coming of cars that will wipe out any and everything in its wake. That's also the difference between someone who buys a car with some red flags and someone was accepted Elon Musk as their lord and savior. Also I never said anything about BMWs/Alfas outselling the Model 3 I guess when the convo gets uncomfortable you have to pivot to something Tesla positive. Seriously every time I see your screen name you are caping for Tesla. Nothing wrong with liking the brand or buying their stuff but your fanboyism is Stage 4 terminal.

    17. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 12:46 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Nothing wrong with liking the brand or buying their stuff but your fanboyism is Stage 4 terminal.
      This is the truth. And you are the opposite.

      This is us.

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    18. Senior Member Wimbledon's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 01:06 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Why cherry pick a successful tech transition? I'm sure people were equally optimistic about rotary engines, the Caddy V8-6-4 etc. Horses vs cars have jack **** to do with ICE vs BEVs, and much of BEVs' future success hinges on what essentially boils down to faith and magic ("something wonderful will happen and they will be viable and profitable!")

      Nobody is declaring Ferraris to be the second coming of cars that will wipe out any and everything in its wake. That's also the difference between someone who buys a car with some red flags and someone was accepted Elon Musk as their lord and savior. Also I never said anything about BMWs/Alfas outselling the Model 3 I guess when the convo gets uncomfortable you have to pivot to something Tesla positive. Seriously every time I see your screen name you are caping for Tesla. Nothing wrong with liking the brand or buying their stuff but your fanboyism is Stage 4 terminal.
      I’m not a Tesla brand fanboy by any means; many Tesla enthusiasts are insufferable. But I can separate my feelings about the brand, or its styling, or its owners, or the stock, and recognize how the Model 3 has changed the segment. When you drive a Model 3, you experience handling rivals can’t match (thanks to no weight in the nose and a lower center of gravity), power delivery rivals can’t match, quiet luxury rivals can’t match, and dramatically lower fuel costs. The Model 3 wins on every measure. That’s because of the engineering. What I’d love to see is an Alfa engineered like a Model 3 — I’d rather have Alfa style. I’m sure we’ll see more cars like the Model 3 in the near future, so the discussion will be less focused on the Model 3 and Tesla specifically, and more focused on the general concept of a capable BEV.
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      06-12-2019 01:12 PM #68
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      YOu need to drive the Model 3 before dismissing it as zero emotion.

      Because I do not equate engine noise with emotion.
      Who said I do??? We have an i3, which elicits plenty of emotion for me and no engine noise.

      The styling of the 3 does nothing for me, inside or out. That's emotional for me. Sheesh.

    20. Member
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      06-12-2019 01:19 PM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by Wimbledon View Post
      I’m not a Tesla brand fanboy by any means; many Tesla enthusiasts are insufferable. But I can separate my feelings about the brand, or its styling, or its owners, or the stock, and recognize how the Model 3 has changed the segment. When you drive a Model 3, you experience handling rivals can’t match (thanks to no weight in the nose and a lower center of gravity), power delivery rivals can’t match, quiet luxury rivals can’t match, and dramatically lower fuel costs. The Model 3 wins on every measure. That’s because of the engineering. What I’d love to see is an Alfa engineered like a Model 3 — I’d rather have Alfa style. I’m sure we’ll see more cars like the Model 3 in the near future, so the discussion will be less focused on the Model 3 and Tesla specifically, and more focused on the general concept of a capable BEV.
      For sure; the only thing keeping Tesla afloat is the product, which is very good. But like you, I'm waiting for an established player to come up with an answer.

      Unfortunately, I think Tesla's problems come in large part from the fact that they basically sell cars at a huge loss. For someone like BMW to sell a Model 3 without inciting shareholder revolt the price would need to be about 15-20% higher. A ~$42K base Model 3 from a brand with a high likelihood of existing next summer doesn't seem too off base. But what BMW is actually building at that price is the i3.... *shudders* So there's a gap that needs to close.

      Regular manufacturers also need to electrify some sedans/fastbacks. Kona/Soul/Niro EVs have a lot going for them, but I'd rather have an Elantra or Ioniq EV with the same drivetrain.

    21. Member 66Satellite's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 02:20 PM #70
      I liked this thread better when it was about Alfa vs BMW

    22. Senior Member syntrix's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 02:21 PM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by 66Satellite View Post
      I liked this thread better when it was about Alfa vs BMW
      zing
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    23. 06-12-2019 02:49 PM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
      Add me to the "lolwat" list. US consumers get the best customer service treatment in the world. By a wide mile. Our minimum standards here for customer treatment are waaay above everyone elses.
      What did I say in my original post on that subject. That if you pay a fortune in the USA you can get excellent customer service, I'd wager that you are in the top 1% and pay for and receive excellent customer service. Lucky you.

    24. 06-12-2019 02:51 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      +4, both from personal experience and things I've read lately

      There's a rash of POISONINGS of guests at resorts in the Dominican Republic. AC1DD is an endless stream of garbage hot takes
      You're reading comprehension skills need some work friend. I mentioned in my original post that I was speaking about
      developed nations, not third world country, although the USA is starting to fit right in with those places.

    25. Member mremg's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 02:58 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by GTI 20v View Post
      It's too bad they didn't compare the Genesis G70, because (based on my test driving) it beats both of these cars.
      I too thought that they should've included the G70 (especially the 3 pedal trim).

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      06-12-2019 03:02 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by mremg View Post
      I too thought that they should've included the G70 (especially the 3 pedal trim).
      Manual version has not got great reviews and Hyundai's 2.0T kind of sucks, at least in bigger cars

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