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    1. ***** (Cat) Lover Pizza Cat!!!!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:15 AM #101
      Quote Originally Posted by bnkrpt311 View Post
      Genuine question, what about interaction with other kids and such? That is one of the reasons my wife and I chose to take our kids to a daycare but I never really thought about how stay at home parents would tackle that.
      Either his entire post is complete satire, or he's living in 1950.
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    3. Member Surf Green's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:22 AM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by bnkrpt311 View Post
      Genuine question, what about interaction with other kids and such?
      Ours is an only child, and the social interaction with her friends at daycare was a huge positive, considering there were no other kids on our street at the time.

      She and her friends really enjoyed their time at daycare, learned a lot more than we coudl have taught her, and I'd get the stink-eye if I showed up too early to pick her up.

      When I grew up, it was just me, my older brother, and my mother until Kindergarten. Dropped into a school where most of the kids already knew each other from their church based preschools was a challenge that I didn't understand until much later in life.
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    4. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:24 AM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      Cutout the daycare altogether and have the mother stay home, like people used to do. Grow your own food in the backyard, cloth diapers... I'm probably viewed as "weird" though in today's world. Although adding another kid pretty much costs me nothing. And, your kid is raised by YOU, not some stranger in a daycare facility.

      Find yourself a traditional woman who wants to do that, and you're good. Get a small house with at least 1 acre out in the country somewhere.

      I'm 26, my girl is 21, this is our game plan in the next 1-2 years. No, we're not hippies either.
      If that's what you want, more power to you. Problem is, most "acres out in the country" are not also in places where there are many jobs that will easily support a family (and a car hobby) on a single income. Besides, unless you home school them too, you are going to have strangers watching your kids once they start kindergarten.

    5. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:29 AM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Car_Guy View Post
      I hear ya, and won't call you anything including "typical"! But I don't think that much has changed in 30 years (sorry, Millennials, your problems are not unique). Like you said, when both work, only one spouse really uses their health care benefit anyway, so losing one working spouse doesn't kill off that benefit (except in cases where it is a huge spread, like in your case). But my wife left a 6-figure salary plus the top-shelf benefits of a top-50 corporation and still says it was worth it. Her benefits were better than mine at that point as well.

      And again, the job market today is better than when I was starting out in 1985 when unemployment was 7.2%, my salary out of college was $19,500 a year and I bought a 900sf condo in a sketchy part of the Bay Area in 1987 for $110K ($10K down) because a "real" house cost 2-3x that much (10-15X my salary, just like today). When I went back to grad school in 1993, unemployment was still high, health care for my family was about $1300 a month (compared to $2300 today), but salaries were far lower in 1993. So yeah, the entire package has to be looked at when leaving a job, but I push back against the idea that the world is far harder for the more recent generations. It's always been tough, and maybe always getting tougher, but not as much as people like to indicate. The recessions of the 80s and early 90s as well as the crash of 2000 made life pretty darned awful for people trying to raise families and make ends meet.
      Basically, if you want something, and you’re willing to work hard, and use your brain, you can have it. Period.

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    6. ***** (Cat) Lover Pizza Cat!!!!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:32 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by Surf Green View Post
      Ours is an only child, and the social interaction with her friends at daycare was a huge positive, considering there were no other kids on our street at the time.

      She and her friends really enjoyed their time at daycare, learned a lot more than we coudl have taught her, and I'd get the stink-eye if I showed up too early to pick her up.
      That's why I made the post earlier about going to a small daycare being a huge positive for Jr. When I pick him up, there is a literal swarm of little kids around us wanting to keep playing - I pick him up and he's waving bye to them even when we get to the door of my car
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    7. Member ZPayne's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:32 AM #106
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      If that's what you want, more power to you. Problem is, most "acres out in the country" are not also in places where there are many jobs that will easily support a family (and a car hobby) on a single income. Besides, unless you home school them too, you are going to have strangers watching your kids once they start kindergarten.
      We're going to homeschool as well. I'll have about a 45 minute commute, but I can work from home most days, so its not a big deal.

      As for the comment that we're living in the 1950's, I guess we are? Is that supposed to be a jab? Complete satire? lmao our way of life is much closer to the historical norm than yours, bud. Everyone is free to raise their kids how they choose. I'm just pointing out that people CHOOSE to raise their kids in a convenient way today that happens to cost them a lot of money. There are much cheaper ways to do it, it might be a little harder work though.

      For the social interaction question, idk, playgrounds? let them play with the neighbor's kids? That's not a real problem.

    8. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:36 AM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by Pizza Cat!!!! View Post
      That's why I made the post earlier about going to a small daycare being a huge positive for Jr. When I pick him up, there is a literal swarm of little kids around us wanting to keep playing - I pick him up and he's waving bye to them even when we get to the door of my car
      Our kids go to a fairly large daycare now, but the classrooms are broken down to 10 children per room with two adults in each room. So the atmosphere is very nice, and they both seem to really like it there. Our oldest genuinely looks forward to going every day, and is hesitant to stop playing with her friends when it’s time to go home.

      The social interaction is incredibly important.
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    9. Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:39 AM #108
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      We're going to homeschool as well. I'll have about a 45 minute commute, but I can work from home most days, so its not a big deal.

      As for the comment that we're living in the 1950's, I guess we are? Is that supposed to be a jab? Complete satire? lmao our way of life is much closer to the historical norm than yours, bud. Everyone is free to raise their kids how they choose. I'm just pointing out that people CHOOSE to raise their kids in a convenient way today that happens to cost them a lot of money. There are much cheaper ways to do it, it might be a little harder work though.

      For the social interaction question, idk, playgrounds? let them play with the neighbor's kids? That's not a real problem.
      A few hours a week at the park is not going to make up for the 30 hours a week of interaction they’re missing out on in a real school.

      But hey, your child, your choice. Hope it goes well!
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    10. ***** (Cat) Lover Pizza Cat!!!!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:42 AM #109
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      We're going to homeschool as well. I'll have about a 45 minute commute, but I can work from home most days, so its not a big deal.

      As for the comment that we're living in the 1950's, I guess we are? Is that supposed to be a jab? Complete satire? lmao our way of life is much closer to the historical norm than yours, bud. Everyone is free to raise their kids how they choose. I'm just pointing out that people CHOOSE to raise their kids in a convenient way today that happens to cost them a lot of money. There are much cheaper ways to do it, it might be a little harder work though.

      For the social interaction question, idk, playgrounds? let them play with the neighbor's kids? That's not a real problem.
      You're free to do whatever you want. It was the 'find a traditional woman' comment that I got an actual laugh out of, hence my satire comment.

      But I'll give you a pro-tip that everyone here understands once they actually have a kid. Before you have your kid, you don't know squat about what you're going to do once the kid arrives. Everything in your life is completely turned around. I don't mean that as a bad thing, it's just what happens.
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    11. Member madrussian's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:44 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by Dave_Car_Guy View Post
      I hear ya, and won't call you anything including "typical"! But I don't think that much has changed in 30 years (sorry, Millennials, your problems are not unique). Like you said, when both work, only one spouse really uses their health care benefit anyway, so losing one working spouse doesn't kill off that benefit (except in cases where it is a huge spread, like in your case). But my wife left a 6-figure salary plus the top-shelf benefits of a top-50 corporation and still says it was worth it. Her benefits were better than mine at that point as well.

      And again, the job market today is better than when I was starting out in 1985 when unemployment was 7.2%, my salary out of college was $19,500 a year and I bought a 900sf condo in a sketchy part of the Bay Area in 1987 for $110K ($10K down) because a "real" house cost 2-3x that much (10-15X my salary, just like today). When I went back to grad school in 1993, unemployment was still high, health care for my family was about $1300 a month (compared to $2300 today), but salaries were far lower in 1993. So yeah, the entire package has to be looked at when leaving a job, but I push back against the idea that the world is far harder for the more recent generations. It's always been tough, and maybe always getting tougher, but not as much as people like to indicate. The recessions of the 80s and early 90s as well as the crash of 2000 made life pretty darned awful for people trying to raise families and make ends meet.
      i dont disagree with you and if my post insinuated that it was harder somehow, that wasnt my intent.

      im self made, pull myself by the bootstraps guy who wasnt born in the us. i think there are ample opportunities if you want to succeed and get ahead and can do so to provide for your family even despite all the critics out there.

      i lived through the 2000's recession and witnessed my dads business he built for 17 years disappear due to the housing industry, etc. so im quite familiar with what real struggle is.

      i have no complaints about where im at in life at my age, what ive accomplished or whose working but im also not oblivious to the fact that healthcare costs are out of control and that its not as easy to have a spouse stay home as it once was.

      that being said, in our situation, we definitely chose to have both of us work for other reasons. we could cut back on numerous things to enable her to stay home, we chose not to.

    12. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:46 AM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      We're going to homeschool as well. I'll have about a 45 minute commute, but I can work from home most days, so its not a big deal.

      As for the comment that we're living in the 1950's, I guess we are? Is that supposed to be a jab? Complete satire? lmao our way of life is much closer to the historical norm than yours, bud. Everyone is free to raise their kids how they choose. I'm just pointing out that people CHOOSE to raise their kids in a convenient way today that happens to cost them a lot of money. There are much cheaper ways to do it, it might be a little harder work though.

      For the social interaction question, idk, playgrounds? let them play with the neighbor's kids? That's not a real problem.
      There's a network effect problem regarding social interaction. Let's say I decide I want my kid to just run around in the neighbhorhood with other kids for social interaction. Small problem: none of the other parents in the neighborhood are doing that, so there are no other kids to run around with. The neighbor kids are in school, daycare, or other activities. You can arrange 1:1 playdates, but it's really hard to find something remotely equivalent to daycare where kids interact with a dozen others at once. We do have a great park a block away where our kids can get some social interaction, but it's not even close to what they get at daycare, where they can build friendships from seeing the same kids every day.

      You are correct that putting kids in a daycare is a lifestyle choice to some extent, but keep in mind that network effects extend to family. We certainly good move an hour outside of town, my spouse could quit her job, and I could spend two hours on the road every day to live out my 1950s Americana dream. But that means it's an hour to see any of my or her family. If your family lives out in the country, your options look very different.

      To each their own. I certainly don't judge people who want to do the stay at home parent thing, but the judgey "raised by strangers" comments grind my gears. Besides, this is thread is supposed to be about what crazy car you would buy if you didn't have daycare bills. I have a new update- I would build an Ultima RS:


    13. Member Samson's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 09:57 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Cabin Pics View Post
      The social interaction is incredibly important.
      Yeah, that alone is worth the expense of daycare to me. Not that you can't get (some of?) those skills through other avenues, but daycare can be a great way to do it. My son stayed home with me from 0-9 months, then eased into school. It was a rough transition for him. He's now at 3/5 days per week, which is a good balance. Saves some cash, he gets to interact with lots of other people/ideas/cultures, and stays with me to build Legos/read/watch the occasional IIHS crash test/Danny MacAskill video while I'm at work. Everybody wins. Also, who is to say that us raising him at home 100% is the best option? I wouldn't want to be raised 100% by me.

      We're going to see if 1 year at home works for child #2, but I'm not sure that I can do it. Working my full time job + having a kid to watch is hard, as is interacting with a toddler all day. One thing is for sure though: having a toddler for coworker certainly hasn't helped out my intelligence.
      Last edited by Samson; 06-12-2019 at 10:01 AM.

    14. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:03 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by Samson View Post
      Yeah, that alone is worth the expense of daycare to me. Not that you can't get (some of?) those skills through other avenues, but daycare can be a great way to do it. My son stayed home with me from 0-9 months, then eased into school. It was a rough transition for him. He's now at 3/5 days per week, which is a good balance. Saves some cash, he gets to interact with lots of other people/ideas/cultures, and stays with me to build Legos/read/watch the occasional IIHS crash test/Danny MacAskill video while I'm at work. Everybody wins. Also, who is to say that us raising him at home is the best option? I wouldn't want to be raised by me.

      We're going to see if 1 year at home works for child #2, but I'm not sure that I can do it. Working my full time job + having a kid to watch is hard, as is interacting with a toddler all day. One thing is for sure though: having a toddler for coworker certainly hasn't helped out my intelligence.
      Yeah, I can't imagine staying home with a baby/toddler by yourself every single day. I did it for two weeks with my son as a bridge between maternity leave and daycare and went completely stir crazy. Love my kids, but I also need to have my own life to be a good father. Kids need space from their parents too, especially as they get older. My parents both worked gowning up, and I was still desperate to get away from them as a teenager

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      06-12-2019 10:05 AM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by madrussian View Post
      i dont disagree with you and if my post insinuated that it was harder somehow, that wasnt my intent.....

      i have no complaints about where im at in life at my age, what ive accomplished or whose working but im also not oblivious to the fact that healthcare costs are out of control and that its not as easy to have a spouse stay home as it once was.
      We completely agree that health care costs are out of control. But as long as at least one parent works for a company that provides insurance, some of that pain is shouldered by the company. That was my main point (people outside the corporate insurance world are the ones getting really screwed... I feel it as a retiree paying massive premiums with massively higher deductibles). And we also agree, as you said, there are many other reasons for having both parents work (or not) that aren’t always purely financial.

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      06-12-2019 10:11 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by ZPayne View Post
      I'm 26, my girl is 21, this is our game plan in the next 1-2 years. No, we're not hippies either.
      Making life long game plans with a 21 year old..... Good luck

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      06-12-2019 10:17 AM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      I certainly don't judge people who want to do the stay at home parent thing, but the judgey "raised by strangers" comments grind my gears.
      There's nobody who knows more about raising kids than people who don't have them, nor is there anyone who knows more about how the world works than a young man in his 20s. I think ZPayne believes he knows more about raising kids and child development than child care professionals. Some people just have to learn things the hard way

    18. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:46 AM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      If that's what you want, more power to you. Problem is, most "acres out in the country" are not also in places where there are many jobs that will easily support a family (and a car hobby) on a single income. Besides, unless you home school them too, you are going to have strangers watching your kids once they start kindergarten.
      Not to rain on the valid critiques of ZPayne's comments, but "small house on 1 acre in the country" is easily available with a short commute in many populated areas with healthy economies.

      1 acre is actually quite small. 208x208ft.

    19. Member Nealric's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 10:49 AM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Not to rain on the valid critiques of ZPayne's comments, but "small house on 1 acre in the country" is easily available with a short commute in many populated areas with healthy economies.

      1 acre is actually quite small. 208x208ft.
      Depends what you call "the country." I can buy an acre in my urban neighborhood too. Only problem is it would cost a few million and the only lots that size are for commercial space. An acre is roughly 7x the size of the standard 6,000sq ft lot in my neighborhood and 4x the size of the standard 10-12ksq ft lots out in the suburbs. 1/2 acre lots are the biggest you'd get for a "normal" lot within an hour commute, and those are mostly associated with $1MM+ houses.
      Last edited by Nealric; 06-12-2019 at 10:52 AM.

    20. Member 2 doors's Avatar
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      06-12-2019 11:18 AM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by atomicalex View Post
      I have two kids at Kettering, does that count?
      I went there! Except it was called "GMI Engineering & Management Institute" when I did. At least your kids will have jobs half the year to help pay for it!

      On topic, when we had kids, I did a stay-at-home dad/part time job thing with Kid #1. With Kid #2, I went back to work full time and my wife quit and stayed at home until #2 hit kindergarten. That was tough as she made more than me (still does). She got really lucky and basically fell back into her old job at her old company. Yes we lost out on her wages, savings, raises, etc., but we made it work and we're happy and our kids are happy. We bought a (relatively) cheap house and had serviceable cars so we survived 5 years on 1 salary.

      Once she started back, we went heavy into savings mode - 529s, 401ks, IRAs, general savings, etc. Now, 5 years later, we're starting to be able to have some fun with our money. We bought a Sequoia for fun family trips and I still have a pickup truck (for sale soon though). I keep claiming that next year, when I turn 45, I buying a sports car.

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      06-12-2019 11:47 AM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      Depends what you call "the country." I can buy an acre in my urban neighborhood too. Only problem is it would cost a few million and the only lots that size are for commercial space. An acre is roughly 7x the size of the standard 6,000sq ft lot in my neighborhood and 4x the size of the standard 10-12ksq ft lots out in the suburbs. 1/2 acre lots are the biggest you'd get for a "normal" lot within an hour commute, and those are mostly associated with $1MM+ houses.
      It's a highly regional thing, but there's lots of areas it's possible without meaning "in the middle of nowhere with no jobs," which was my primary point.

      I live on 10 acres of hayfield, 10 minutes from work, 20 minutes from downtown of a 130,000 person city, so not large but large enough for a healthy economy and 4.4% unemployment rate. That's one example, but you can accomplish similar things where my parents live in SW Ohio, where family lives in Athens, GA, and in much of the South.

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      06-12-2019 11:57 AM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      It's a highly regional thing, but there's lots of areas it's possible without meaning "in the middle of nowhere with no jobs," which was my primary point.

      I live on 10 acres of hayfield, 10 minutes from work, 20 minutes from downtown of a 130,000 person city, so not large but large enough for a healthy economy and 4.4% unemployment rate. That's one example, but you can accomplish similar things where my parents live in SW Ohio, where family lives in Athens, GA, and in much of the South.
      Sure. But the key issue that where your family is and your career choice limits your choices. There are almost zero jobs in my specialty that aren't in a top 5 metro area, and almost all the jobs in my sub specialty are where I live. My point is that your lifestyle is often heavily influenced by either factors beyond your control, or choices you made many years ago that can't be easily undone.

      Besides, I'm not really complaining about daycare costs. I can afford it, and they earn every penny. Still, it's fun to dream about what automotive craziness I could be buying.

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      06-12-2019 12:09 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      There's a network effect problem regarding social interaction. Let's say I decide I want my kid to just run around in the neighbhorhood with other kids for social interaction. Small problem: none of the other parents in the neighborhood are doing that, so there are no other kids to run around with. The neighbor kids are in school, daycare, or other activities.
      Ran into this yesterday. I mentioned my daughter's pack of girlfriends. Well every day this summer she is in a different spot, a combination of several babysitters, her grandma, and two different day camps. Yesterday was her day to be home with grandma. Well, all the other kids were off at camp. She was bored to tears (grandma doesn't help much, both kids had near-zero battery life on their tablets yesterday telling me Grandma didn't try to entertain them). Today she's off at one of the camps, buuut none of her friends are there today, so I'm worried about the feedback she will have. Summer is an adventure.
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      06-12-2019 07:01 PM #123
      Dont have kids is what i am getting from this...
      Last edited by Stangy; 06-12-2019 at 07:26 PM.
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      06-12-2019 07:10 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by bnkrpt311 View Post
      Genuine question, what about interaction with other kids and such? That is one of the reasons my wife and I chose to take our kids to a daycare but I never really thought about how stay at home parents would tackle that.
      play with local kids, even in the country other kids exist.
      go to local parks, town events to meet people then setup later play dates.
      there are tons of 'organized' kids play areas... bouncy houses, trampoline parks, tumbling classes. many community centers have programs as well.

      a lot of our local gyms have 'daycare' centers while kids while you work out, at really a very reasonable rate... like $10/mo so long as you are a gym member, and you have to stay at the club while the kid is there..etc.

      and if you end up going the next step of homeschool (not my cup o tea)... so long as your area has a good homeschooling support co-op, the kids will get plenty of non-family people interaction.

      IMO, yeah without daycare and community schooling you could be raising hippy hermit kids.
      but by no means is that absolute even go extreme, with a stay at home parent and homeschool.

      also not saying its always the case. but a lot of the homeschooling kids i have been exposed to, are also very religious families. so they are also going to get lots of social contact through their church attendance and events.

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      06-12-2019 11:00 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by Nealric View Post
      There's a network effect problem regarding social interaction. Let's say I decide I want my kid to just run around in the neighbhorhood with other kids for social interaction. Small problem: none of the other parents in the neighborhood are doing that, so there are no other kids to run around with. The neighbor kids are in school, daycare, or other activities. You can arrange 1:1 playdates, but it's really hard to find something remotely equivalent to daycare where kids interact with a dozen others at once. We do have a great park a block away where our kids can get some social interaction, but it's not even close to what they get at daycare, where they can build friendships from seeing the same kids every day.

      You are correct that putting kids in a daycare is a lifestyle choice to some extent, but keep in mind that network effects extend to family. We certainly good move an hour outside of town, my spouse could quit her job, and I could spend two hours on the road every day to live out my 1950s Americana dream. But that means it's an hour to see any of my or her family. If your family lives out in the country, your options look very different.

      To each their own. I certainly don't judge people who want to do the stay at home parent thing, but the judgey "raised by strangers" comments grind my gears. Besides, this is thread is supposed to be about what crazy car you would buy if you didn't have daycare bills. I have a new update- I would build an Ultima RS:

      Socialization is the only semi-valid critique of a homeschooling/traditional child rearing lifestyle in the modern world, where 90% of kids are at daycare, but the homeschool community is growing rapidly, and we have the internet for finding like-minded communities. It's a challenge that can easily be overcome with planning and a little diligence. And I disagree that kids necessarily have to be surrounded by dozens of kids their same age all the time. Kids should have friends their own age, but they can also have friends a little younger/older. kids all the same age can be like the blind leading the blind. Being cognizant of this issue, which we are, it doesn't seem like a big deal if managed properly and the kids are in a lot of extra activities, which home schooled kids typically are. That's a benefit of homeschooling, the lessons can be much more condensed, sometimes only 2 hours per day, and the child has much more time to play and explore the world.

      I understand people get upset when people say you're letting your kids get raised by someone else, but its a valid critique. You don't have control over the person watching your child, or the curriculum in school, or the pacing of that curriculum (which is often far too slow). 8 hour days for kids to sit in desks while schools are seemingly constantly cutting funding to arts/music/physical education is not acceptable in my view, these are the most important subjects to children IMO.

      This discussion is relevant to the thread in that people would have much more $$$ for car hobbies if they raised kids like previous generations did, on much less money and material possessions to boot.

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