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    1. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      05-23-2019 02:42 PM #76
      Thanks for indulging me with answer. I could of responses.

      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      • The instant acceleration. The zero lag between your foot twitching and the car moving is addicting. No downshifts, no turbo pressure build up. The 30-50 on a Mustang GT is 2.5. AWD Model 3 is under 2.
      • The seat of the pants feeling of power. Per EV rated HP, the car feels much more powerful than ICE because all of the power is down low at 0 RPM.
      • So this is all acceleration related, which is clearly a benefit that I've read from every single person who's driven a reasonably powerful Tesla.

      • The heavy regen allowing you to mostly utilize one pedal driving. This feels great and you wonder why isnt this standard.
      • The steering ratio is 10.3:1. Super quick. I cannot find another vehicle with steering this quick. The car feels more agile and sporty than what is usual for the segment. Some folks do not like this though.
      • The suspension is sportier than what people are used to in that segment.
      So this is the most interesting part to me. The steering ratio is quite tangible for sure----but is there any feel? I LOATHED the steering on my mustang after a while. I'm not a fan of it on our Tucson either. The steering in the M3 isn't the second coming, but it's a bit more communicative than the other cars mentioned. How about the resistance of the steering? Sometimes steering with a perfect amount of effort can make up for a lot, IMO. What do you like about the chassis? Does it understeer? Is there body roll? Is it fun to push into turn? What are the options for loosening up the stability control? How does the car handle mid-turn disruptions (either bumps or acceleration)? I believe the CG is pretty low on these, but I don't recall reading much about the specifics of the chassis.

      [QUOTE]
    2. In pictures, the interior looks too spartan. You sit inside and you get it. Very Scandavanian interior. Like a future Volvo. The screen is brilliant.

    3. The comparatively spartan interior definitely isn't a problem for me. Though I'm not sure if I would like to live with the huge tablet on the dash.

      You may read this list and say "yea sounds cool but so what" but its only when you take one for a spin, then you get it.
      The way I'm reading this, driving a TM3 is basically like driving an i3 with 2-3 times the power. I liked how peppy the i3 was when accelerating to normal side road speeds (<55mph).
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  • Member Tommietank's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 03:18 PM #77
    Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
    So this is the most interesting part to me. The steering ratio is quite tangible for sure----but is there any feel? I LOATHED the steering on my mustang after a while. I'm not a fan of it on our Tucson either. The steering in the M3 isn't the second coming, but it's a bit more communicative than the other cars mentioned. How about the resistance of the steering? Sometimes steering with a perfect amount of effort can make up for a lot, IMO. What do you like about the chassis? Does it understeer? Is there body roll? Is it fun to push into turn? What are the options for loosening up the stability control? How does the car handle mid-turn disruptions (either bumps or acceleration)? I believe the CG is pretty low on these, but I don't recall reading much about the specifics of the chassis.

    There is feel yes and the resistance is variable via the screen. Three levels of resistance.
    Chassis is great with little understeer and you can get the back end out a bit. Very little body roll. I love coming into a corner hot and have not yet found the limit yet. This thread here details the chassis more than I could. Performance version though but a good read. https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-on-this-a-bit


    Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
    The way I'm reading this, driving a TM3 is basically like driving an i3 with 2-3 times the power. I liked how peppy the i3 was when accelerating to normal side road speeds (<55mph).
    Funny because I also have an i3. And I've waxed poetic about it. After driving the Model 3 for 8 days and 2,000 miles, I drove my i3 for a mile. I just had to laugh. The i3 felt like a wandering slow SUV. Wobbly, tall, squishy brake pedal, and deadish steering.
    Slow Car Fast

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    05-23-2019 03:31 PM #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
    I totally would give you a test drive if I was near. And I'm sure any local owner would too. The experience is hard to describe because it's more than the sum of its parts but I'll list them off.
    • In pictures, the interior looks too spartan. You sit inside and you get it. Very Scandavanian interior. Like a future Volvo. The screen is brilliant.


    I've sat in a couple, left totally unimpressed with the interior design and quality. Looked and felt cheap IMO and I hate the giant screen and nothing else design.

    Regarding the whole ICE vs electric thing I'm sure electric will do well in the future. Consumers have shown that they don't care about involving driving experiences and they want quiet over someone that makes race car sounds. Electric wins in both of those. Range is good enough now for most peoples use, especially the two car family scenario so once chargers are readily available and at places that people actually want to stop at a major impediment will be removed. Less maintenance = good for most people.

    One thing I'm interested in with electrics is going to be the economics in the used market. I feel like electric cars will kind of mimic the used market for Ferrari F355's which has $10000 swings based on if the car has just had it's engine out service or if it's due/overdue for it. Same with electric cars I'm guessing, the 8 year old car with it's original battery will be $10,000 less than the one that just had a new factory battery pack put in. It'll also lead to some interesting decisions, like, the car is starting to rust but it's not bad yet and it needs a new battery, if it was a gasser needing a 3K repair you'd do it, but needing a $10,000 battery maybe not, or look for a used battery. I guess this is a long winded way of saying the used market for electrics will be dominated by battery age/condition.

    /me - I'll be a late adopter and keep buying engines that have manual transmissions and make noise for as long as possible.

  • Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 03:53 PM #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
    There is feel yes and the resistance is variable via the screen. Three levels of resistance.
    Chassis is great with little understeer and you can get the back end out a bit. Very little body roll. I love coming into a corner hot and have not yet found the limit yet. This thread here details the chassis more than I could. Performance version though but a good read. https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...-on-this-a-bit




    Funny because I also have an i3. And I've waxed poetic about it. After driving the Model 3 for 8 days and 2,000 miles, I drove my i3 for a mile. I just had to laugh. The i3 felt like a wandering slow SUV. Wobbly, tall, squishy brake pedal, and deadish steering.
    Thank you for the response, very informative. I believe my across the street neighbor got a model 3, and in the philly area, they are absolutely everywhere. I saw several earlier today when I stepped out to get my haircut (5 miles each way). I have to say the 3s with the dark mesh-style wheels look really nice. You make a good case for at least giving one a whirl. If/when the cheaper version of the Model X comes our way, it could be worth a look in 4 or so yrs (when we're hopefully ready to punt the Tucson). Your comparison with the i3 was helpful.

  • Member Nealric's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 03:56 PM #80
    Quote Originally Posted by vwwtchr View Post
    You're hilarious. Death watch!!! hahahaha

    They might be unprofitable, but they are far from on any kind of death watch. Will they be bought out at some point, maybe. But all the doom and gloom is put forth by people with no real knowledge of their finances.
    Their finances certainly aren't great, but nobody is going to buy them when their market cap is still close to that of Ford- no automaker has the money to make that work. There's some question of long term viability, but they are a ways away from insolvency, and even a chapter 11 wouldn't be the end of the line.

  • 05-23-2019 04:12 PM #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackey View Post
    Really looking forward to seeing what companies that know how to make cars and run successful businesses do with the technology.
    We have... and the cars aren't as good. E-Tron, I-Pace, i3, Bolt, Kona... I can go on.

  • Member Tommietank's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 04:18 PM #82
    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich-chris View Post
    We have... and the cars aren't as good. E-Tron, I-Pace, i3, Bolt, Kona... I can go on.
    This is me looking for a real Model 3/S competitor.

    Slow Car Fast

  • Member Galrot's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 05:50 PM #83
    Cool. I have say I've been really impressed by the model 3 so far.

  • Member 1badMKIrocco's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 06:52 PM #84
    It seems like we get a new Model 3 in the parking lot of my office every month. I hear the people in the office gloating on and on about their tessies and how wonderful the car is. The Tesla Model 3 is like the OG iPhone, everyone wanted one and everyone thought Steve Jobs was the reincarnation of Jesus Christ himself, for bringing this glorious tech to the masses. Today it's Elon Musk and the Tesla, if you don't have one you want one and you'd lick soles of Musk's feet to get one. I don't think I've ever seen so much excitement for a particular make of car in my life (from ppl who aren't "automotive enthusiasts" anyway), so I don't think Tesla is going away; BUT we'll probably see GM or Ford buy the name, and move the plant to one of the recently closed auto plants in middle America. If making cars in Fremont California was good for profits Toyota would've never moved production of Tacomas to Texas and Corollas to Mississippi.

    This article explains what Tesla's doing wrong when it comes to engineering and manufacturing of the Model 3: https://www.autonews.com/article/201...iggest-problem

    Once GM, Ford or another large auto maker buys them they will be able to produce the cars for a lot less money. With Ford and GM abandoning so many sedans it's feasible that they would be able to acquire the Tesla name, tooling and technology. I don't think GM and Ford think they're going to survive for another 100 years by cranking out nothing but Gas Guzzling SUVs and Pickup trucks..

  • 05-23-2019 08:00 PM #85
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
    This is me looking for a real Model 3/S competitor.

    Polestar 2

  • Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 08:16 PM #86
    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich-chris View Post
    Polestar 2


    "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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  • Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 08:27 PM #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
    This is me looking for a real Model 3/S competitor.

    Same. For the life of me I do not know why the big boys keep producing all these frumpy EV’s.

  • Nobody messes with me. Not. 😂 ChillOutPossum's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 08:33 PM #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
    This is me looking for a real Model 3/S competitor.

    Same. For the life of me I do not know why the big boys keep producing all these frumpy EV’s.
    Ditto. Why is every EV so far except Tesla kind of a POS or vaporware?

  • 05-23-2019 08:35 PM #89
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
    Ditto. Why is every EV so far except Tesla kind of a POS or vaporware?
    Maybe it's not as easy to build as everything believes.

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    05-23-2019 10:24 PM #90
    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich-chris View Post
    Maybe it's not as easy to build as everything believes.
    No no, the german fanbois will tell you if the germans really wanted to they could definitely produce an equal or better product than Tesla.

    Forget that not one single german EV can match the ev specs of the now 6 year old Tesla, not to mention the now improved performance of the Models X and S.

  • Don't be me. Don't be a 'Rick' Cabin Pics's Avatar
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    05-23-2019 11:19 PM #91
    Quote Originally Posted by ChillOutPossum View Post
    Ditto. Why is every EV so far except Tesla kind of a POS or vaporware?
    It's the American Way.
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  • Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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    05-24-2019 07:39 AM #92
    Quote Originally Posted by sandwich-chris View Post
    Maybe it's not as easy to build as everything believes.
    I'm sorry, but I don't believe it is 'harder' to make a Tesla Model 3 than it is to make a Bolt, i3, or Leaf. These are ALL very technically sophisticated machines producing huge electric power from largely modular systems that can be adapted to many different car shapes.

    Everyone but Tesla is choosing to build their mainstream-priced EVs in a frumpy shell. The legacy manufacturers are caught in some weird styling rut where they think that EV's must look like dowdy half-car/half-CUV things while being the best of neither.

    Meanwhile, Musk realized that what people really want is an EV that looks like a (subjectively) sleek and stylish CAR (ModelX notwithstanding).

    I don't believe there is a single, TECHNICAL SKILL or MANUFACTURING reason the legacy manufacturers "can't" do this. They are CHOOSING not to. For some reason.

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    05-24-2019 07:45 AM #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't believe it is 'harder' to make a Tesla Model 3 than it is to make a Bolt, i3, or Leaf. These are ALL very technically sophisticated machines producing huge electric power from largely modular systems that can be adapted to many different car shapes.
    I think the point was that it’s hard to make any EV profitably.

  • Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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    05-24-2019 07:49 AM #94
    Quote Originally Posted by Yuppie Scum View Post
    I think the point was that it’s hard to make any EV profitably.
    Well that we can certainly agree on.

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    05-24-2019 08:00 AM #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post

    I don't believe there is a single, TECHNICAL SKILL or MANUFACTURING reason the legacy manufacturers "can't" do this. They are CHOOSING not to. For some reason.

    Rightfully so, once you figure that Tesla is getting in deep sh*t by the week.

    They might be unprofitable, but they are far from on any kind of death watch. Will they be bought out at some point,
    At the huge loss of reckless investors. Already 30B have been wiped out.
    https://www.fastcompany.com/90354557...nths-heres-why

    Tesla’s market cap today is $35.51 billion, meaning the company has lost more than $30 billion in value in less than a year.
    Investors get impatient as losses are endless and the mere profits they showed were kinda doctored up. Unfortunately the remaining value still needs to go down again and massively.

    For the car itself, I'd rather agree that it is a technological wonder, once you passed the aesthetic.

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    05-24-2019 08:22 AM #96
    The only one I want so far is the Honda E.
    Improving the signal-to-noise ratio

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    05-24-2019 08:30 AM #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
    I'm sorry, but I don't believe it is 'harder' to make a Tesla Model 3 than it is to make a Bolt, i3, or Leaf. These are ALL very technically sophisticated machines producing huge electric power from largely modular systems that can be adapted to many different car shapes.

    Everyone but Tesla is choosing to build their mainstream-priced EVs in a frumpy shell. The legacy manufacturers are caught in some weird styling rut where they think that EV's must look like dowdy half-car/half-CUV things while being the best of neither.

    Meanwhile, Musk realized that what people really want is an EV that looks like a (subjectively) sleek and stylish CAR (ModelX notwithstanding).

    I don't believe there is a single, TECHNICAL SKILL or MANUFACTURING reason the legacy manufacturers "can't" do this. They are CHOOSING not to. For some reason.
    The Leaf and e-Golf look like perfectly normal, decently styled hatchbacks. I don't like the 500 in any form (EV included) but it could also pass as a normal-looking hatch.

    The Model S, fine but "sleek and stylish" don't come to mind to me when looking at the Model 3 with its bloated greenhouse and blunted front end.

    Plus, almost every mainstream EV I can think of (Teslas included) is a hatchback of some kind. There has to be a reason for that.
    Next car desires subject to change... Perpetually.

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    05-24-2019 08:36 AM #98
    Quote Originally Posted by VarianceVQ View Post
    The Leaf and e-Golf look like perfectly normal, decently styled hatchbacks. I don't like the 500 in any form (EV included) but it could also pass as a normal-looking hatch.

    The Model S, fine but "sleek and stylish" don't come to mind to me when looking at the Model 3 with its bloated greenhouse and blunted front end.

    Plus, almost every mainstream EV I can think of (Teslas included) is a hatchback of some kind. There has to be a reason for that.
    The golf is fine but the Leaf is a total nerd mobile. And the Mode 3 isn’t a hatch. And a hatch is fine (see Model S), it’s the bloated one box Bolt Leaf shape that makes me want to shove it in a locker.
    Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
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    05-24-2019 09:02 AM #99
    I think the distinction between Tesla and the others is kind of simple. The money has to come from somewhere. A $36K Leaf vs a $36K Tesla is basically non-comparable. But even Nissan is in better overall shape than Tesla these days.

    There's a decent gap and market opportunity. It's not difficult. Take something like a Honda Insight, give it a 60kWh battery and a 140kW motor, charge $40K for it. OK it's no Model 3 fighter, but looking at Tesla's financials that's probably a good thing.

  • Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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    05-24-2019 09:16 AM #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Sporin View Post
    The legacy manufacturers are caught in some weird styling rut where they think that EV's must look like dowdy half-car/half-CUV things while being the best of neither.
    I'm not sure I fully agree with this. You have to look where tesla is playing vs everyone else. Tesla started in the premium market and literally from nothing. They had a blank sheet that that could use to make the vehicles look however they wanted and since the vehicles were not designed to be cheap, there's a little more breathing room in design/features/power.

    Let's no consider the legacy brands. Up until relatively recently, you're talking about Toyota and Chevy (and to a lesser degree, Ford), primarily. And guess what, they played in the standard space. Their "clean sheet" designs had to be much more of a compromise because of the cost, while optimizing both utility and a shape that allows for the battery use to be maximized. Then again, both Ford and VW offer regular looking electric cars, as well.

    I think when you move to real Tesla competitors from premium legacy brands, where they're selling more expensive cars, you start seeing vehicles that look more like regular vehicles. However, they're also making these vehicles mostly in the EV form, since that's what sells in greatest volume. The legacy brands still have to balance maintaining and incrementally improving their ICE vehicle, while finding a way to also bring out EV options, all the while being able to "feed the machine" and not sink the company. Teslas and others have one great advantage---they aren't dealing with a legacy of products that people who actually buy your cars expect.

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