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    1. Member Uber Wagon's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 03:01 PM #1
      Preliminary findings indicate the Autopilot system was indeed on at the time of the fatal crash involving a Model 3. The accident occurred in Delray Beach, Florida back on March 1, 2019.



      According to NTSB's findings, the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) claims that neither Autopilot nor the driver of the Tesla attempted any evasive maneuvers before hitting the truck.

      Investigators state that the driver engaged Autopilot about 10 seconds before the collision. “From less than 8 seconds before the crash to the time of impact, the vehicle did not detect the driver’s hands on the steering wheel,” the NTSB said. The vehicle was traveling at 68 mph when it crashed. The roof of the Model 3 was sheared off as it hit the truck’s trailer, passing underneath, and then coming to a stop 1,600 feet away.
      For more information, here's the preliminary report:

      https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/...reliminary.pdf

      This is the fourth crash that Autopilot has been engaged.
      Beer: The cause of, and solution to, all of life's problems.

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    3. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 03:06 PM #2
      I can’t wait for FSD.

    4. Senior Member Jettavr666's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 03:11 PM #3
      IMO this is why fully autonomous cars are still a way off. If this happened in any other "drivers" cars, its the drivers fault, and case closed. Now I'm sure his next of kin will be filing a large wrongful death lawsuit against tesla, especially considering the time was less than 8 seconds. IIRC Tesla's system only gives warnings if the hands are off the wheel for 30 seconds. The Liability to automakers to allow fully autonomous systems is HUGE in the event of an accident.

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      05-16-2019 03:17 PM #4
      The future for Tesla. Ducktape Deathmatch approach.

      Right hand is fastened to steering wheel

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    6. Member Rav_VW's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 03:17 PM #5
      So the truck pulled out and blocked the highway? I'd like to know how much time passed between the truck entering the space and the collision happening.

      At 70 I'm not sure the Autopilot would have been in detection range for the truck and still had enough time to stop or do any avoidance. Anyone know the effective look-ahead range of sensors and cameras?

    7. 05-16-2019 03:40 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by Rory Calhoun View Post
      The future for Tesla. Ducktape Deathmatch approach.

      Right hand is fastened to steering wheel

      Random Initial D reference deserves a

    8. 05-16-2019 03:46 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Rav_VW View Post
      So the truck pulled out and blocked the highway? I'd like to know how much time passed between the truck entering the space and the collision happening.

      At 70 I'm not sure the Autopilot would have been in detection range for the truck and still had enough time to stop or do any avoidance. Anyone know the effective look-ahead range of sensors and cameras?
      While the circumstances of this collision suggest that the driver of the transport truck pulled out into the road in front of approaching traffic ...

      ... transport trucks are big, don't move very fast when negotiating an intersection, and sight-lines at the location of the crash are as good as they will get. A human driver would have had no difficulty perceiving that there was a truck approaching the intersection which was going to conflict with their path.

      Just FYI here is the area of the crash https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Del....0728201?hl=en

      Presumably the truck was turning across the southbound lanes at the top of that part of the map and the (southbound) car came to a stop in the median just short of the turn lane at the bottom.

      10 seconds at that speed means the view from that location would have been this: https://www.google.ca/maps/@26.47174...2!8i6656?hl=en

      The truck would have been visible as far away as the driver (or autopilot) can see.

    9. 05-16-2019 03:54 PM #8
      Even if it is found that it was the transport truck driver's "fault" ... One of the things that good human drivers do, is to not only prevent the crashes that would be their fault, but also prevent the crashes that would be someone else's fault. I question how good Autopilot is at doing stuff like that.

      Example. Me. Yesterday. Southbound on a rural road approaching a junction which has a stop sign east-west but none north-south. I'm coming up behind a car waiting to turn left at that junction. I can see that there is an oncoming vehicle also wanting to turn left from the other direction (i.e. across my path). Option 1, blast past the left-turning vehicle at full speed. (I could have. Lots of drivers do.) Option 2, perceive that the oncoming left-turner can't see past the my-direction left-turner, "not see anything moving", and may turn left across my path. Course of action ... Slow the heck down. Sure enough, the oncoming left-turner did the turn. At that point I was already on the brakes and simply needed to stop from 30 - 40 km/h to avoid hitting the other left-turner. Simple as that, I avoided a crash that would have been someone else's fault. Do all human drivers do that? No. Does autopilot do that? I don't know. Do I do that? Well, I did. Until autopilot is that good, I will not be relinquishing control.

    10. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 03:56 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by Rav_VW View Post
      So the truck pulled out and blocked the highway? I'd like to know how much time passed between the truck entering the space and the collision happening.

      At 70 I'm not sure the Autopilot would have been in detection range for the truck and still had enough time to stop or do any avoidance. Anyone know the effective look-ahead range of sensors and cameras?

      https://www.tesla.com/autopilot
      Advanced Sensor Coverage

      Eight surround cameras provide 360 degrees of visibility around the car at up to 250 meters of range. Twelve updated ultrasonic sensors complement this vision, allowing for detection of both hard and soft objects at nearly twice the distance of the prior system. A forward-facing radar with enhanced processing provides additional data about the world on a redundant wavelength that is able to see through heavy rain, fog, dust and even the car ahead.
      If the car was traveling 68 mpg (30.4 m/s), the A/P should have had 8.2 seconds to react. Typical stopping distance from 70 mph is 96 meters in dry, 170 meters in wet. https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Drivin...eather_driving
      Given that the car was traveling 68 mph when it hit the semi means that the A/P didn't see the semi at all and the driver probably didn't see it until it was way too late for him to slow much.

      If he saw it, he would have been better off getting as low as possible in the seat or even hitting the wheels of the trailer and letting the crumple zone and airbags do their job.

      And you aren't supposed to use A/P on this type of a road as it isn't limited access.

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      05-16-2019 04:54 PM #10
      Can we just be done with the idea that "Auto-Pilot" . (yeah, right) and hands off the steering wheel is a good combination in anything but a straight up interstate with little traffic. Perhaps some linear road in Nevada would be appropriate. Anything else and there are too many variables going on. I'm almost wondering if this was a suicide. 8 seconds to die and you do nothing?

      https://www.google.ca/maps/@26.47174...2!8i6656?hl=en

    12. 05-16-2019 05:06 PM #11
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      And you aren't supposed to use A/P on this type of a road as it isn't limited access.
      And the vehicle has sufficient information on board to know the type of road you are travelling on and whether that type of road is one that is "suitable" or "approved" or whatever you want to call it ... and it doesn't do anything about it (like prevent autopilot from engaging if it is not on a suitable road - which it COULD do, like GM Supercruise does).

      'Course, inhibiting autopilot operation except in those limited circumstances is counter to Elon Musk's self-driving visions ...

      ... which are a lot further off in the future than proponents of self-driving will admit.

      I have little doubt that self-driving will show up in commercial vehicles that do repetitive runs on designated routes. Buses, airport shuttles, etc.

    13. Senior Member
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      05-16-2019 06:06 PM #12
      Looks like the trailer did not have a side underride guard, shown in these IIHS crash tests:

      https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/sid...in-40-mph-test




      Comparison of IIHS crash test against trailer without side underride guard:


    14. Member
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      05-16-2019 06:16 PM #13
      its purely darwinian at this point. if you'd read enough or been exposed to enough media to buy a tesla, but then started tuning out when it comes to all the autopilot incidents.. and didn't care to keep control of your vehicle.. well.. I mean....



      these things happen.

    15. 05-16-2019 06:24 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      Looks like the trailer did not have a side underride guard, shown in these IIHS crash tests:
      Very few transport-truck trailers in North America have side underride guards. (Europe is a different story)

      Side underride guard or not, you still shouldn't hit it.

    16. 05-16-2019 06:56 PM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      Looks like the trailer did not have a side underride guard, shown in these IIHS crash tests:

      https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/sid...in-40-mph-test




      Comparison of IIHS crash test against trailer without side underride guard:

      Yet another thing I don't have to worry about by driving a Jeep.

    17. Senior Member Cousin Eddie's Avatar
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      05-16-2019 07:20 PM #16
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post

      Lower it.
      Quote Originally Posted by cockerpunk View Post
      yes, i am bored by FWD driving dynamics, and anyone who doesn't drive there cars to the limits and the beyond.

    18. 05-16-2019 07:28 PM #17
      Q: How did the Tesla continue onwards, after the collision and with the roof no longer present (and with a deceased driver), for 1600 ft before coming to a stop in the median?

      It started out at 68 mph, hit the truck (which obviously would have taken something off its speed), and kept going for a third of a mile? It would take almost 20 seconds to cover that distance without slowing down. If it was slowing down uniformly, it would have taken almost 40 seconds.

      Did Autopilot try to keep driving? Shearing the roof off would surely have disrupted at least some of the cameras. I can't tell in the photo if the airbags deployed. Surely it would be appropriate after an airbag deployment to apply maximum braking to stop the car (a number of other cars with advanced safety systems do this). A truck-underride scenario might not trip the right sensors to deploy airbags though.

    19. 05-16-2019 09:35 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by Rav_VW View Post
      So the truck pulled out and blocked the highway? I'd like to know how much time passed between the truck entering the space and the collision happening.

      At 70 I'm not sure the Autopilot would have been in detection range for the truck and still had enough time to stop or do any avoidance. Anyone know the effective look-ahead range of sensors and cameras?
      This is a 100% daily occurrence in FL. Trucks do not give a fark if they pull out in front of you dead stop and you are 2 cars lengths away going 65 mph.

      If I could jump out the door GTA style and live and not be injured, I'd shove my car so far up a garbage trucks ass it'd launch over it dukes of hazard style.

    20. 05-16-2019 09:38 PM #19
      No point in losing you head over this. Its an accident.

    21. Member IridiumB6's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 12:16 AM #20
      Maybe some 'muricans can chime in here, but why was the NTSB involved even to begin with? Transport truck?
      Quote Originally Posted by KevinC View Post

      If the next GTI has over 300 hp off the showroom floor, I'll eat my airedale.

    22. Member IridiumB6's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 12:18 AM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      Looks like the trailer did not have a side underride guard, shown in these IIHS crash tests:

      https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/sid...in-40-mph-test




      Comparison of IIHS crash test against trailer without side underride guard:

      Why invest in these? Why would the US or Canada act like civilized nations and realize the dangers of these death traps when instead we can put more money into your pockets and "protect" the trucking industry? You might lose your head but who gives a **** about you.
      Quote Originally Posted by KevinC View Post

      If the next GTI has over 300 hp off the showroom floor, I'll eat my airedale.

    23. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 06:15 AM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by Cousin Eddie View Post
      Lower it.
      Damn it you beat me to it.

      Is it possible the Tesla sensors didn't see the truck because the space under the trailer was open and the radar went right under it? Teslas ride pretty low. If the radar is low I could see it thinking the road was open in the right circumstance if there was no contact with the trucks front or rear wheels.

    24. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 08:37 AM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by IridiumB6 View Post
      Maybe some 'muricans can chime in here, but why was the NTSB involved even to begin with? Transport truck?
      More likely because it was a Tesla with the possibility of A/P being in use. Local police just don’t have the resources or knowledge to do that type of investigation.

    25. Senior Member Sporin's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 08:54 AM #24
      Quote Originally Posted by Rav_VW View Post
      So the truck pulled out and blocked the highway? I'd like to know how much time passed between the truck entering the space and the collision happening.

      At 70 I'm not sure the Autopilot would have been in detection range for the truck and still had enough time to stop or do any avoidance. Anyone know the effective look-ahead range of sensors and cameras?
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      While the circumstances of this collision suggest that the driver of the transport truck pulled out into the road in front of approaching traffic ...

      ... transport trucks are big, don't move very fast when negotiating an intersection, and sight-lines at the location of the crash are as good as they will get. A human driver would have had no difficulty perceiving that there was a truck approaching the intersection which was going to conflict with their path.
      First off, they shouldn't have been using "Auto Pilot" on that road and I blame the driver #1, not Tesla.

      Now that that is out of the way...

      Was it a busy road? DId any other cars hit the truck as well? If human drivers saw this happening and could avoid it, then maybe "Auto Pilot" actually isn't safer than a human driver?

      As GoFaster eluded too, Tesla "Auto Pilot" doesn't seem to practice defensive driving at all. Don't tell me a system that isn't actively being defensive on the road (any road) is safer than a human. Defensive driving is one of the major lessons of every driver's education, it is imperative.

      I still don't understand why some people are so desperate to let their car drive for them. If I need my hands on the wheel, my eyes on the road, and have to be vigilant for any abnormalities and the possibility that "Auto Pilot" might try to ram me into an offramp abutment or firetruck parked on the side of the road at any moment.... well... why push the "Auto Pilot" button at all? No thank you.

    26. Senior Member Mazda 3s's Avatar
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      05-17-2019 09:05 AM #25
      OK, now I'm not saying the the driver isn't at fault here for completely dropping the ball on not seeing the semi, but shouldn't Autopilot have stopped the car? How the f**k is Musk can Musk say that Tesla's will be able to travel coast to coast autonomously by year's end if you can't even see a big-ass semi crossing a divided highway?

      "Of course that's just my opinion; I could be wrong."

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