Fourtitude.com - Illinois is giving you less reason to buy electric cars.
Username or Email Address
Do you already have an account?
Forgot your password?
  • Log in or Sign up

    Fourtitude.com


    Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast
    Results 76 to 100 of 128
    1. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      2,568
      Cars
      AP1 and JLU
      05-14-2019 08:11 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Egz View Post
      So, basically what I got from this thread is there is no reason to live in Illinois.
      Yes and no.

      I moved here solely for my wife, who is from here, and basically hated it.

      However:

      -lots and lots of industry here, I can move around lots of big companies seamlessly
      -very very good public education in the right neighborhoods/suburbs
      -compared to the NYC metro area and the various CA metro areas, the COL is not THAT bad
      -Chicago as a city is better than most others when it comes to cleanliness, stuff to do, food, experiences, etc
      -if you live in a close-in suburb, it is very possible to live in walkable areas, have a great QOL, etc, even though your house is probably fairly small
      -cheap flights out of OHare plus it's central to get anywhere you want to go
      -demographically desirable in the right areas (our area is all young/middle aged professional types, not a lot of hillbillys, etc)


      Really, my biggest gripes are:
      -****ty property taxes/relatively high housing costs (1700 sq ft 3br house worth $375k and I pay like $9k in taxes)
      -no fun roads
      -no real ocean

      The corruption and BS, yeah, it sucks, but whatever. And I grew up in CT, so I'm kinda used to the high-tax BS.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    2. Remove Advertisements

      Advertisements
       

    3. Member Volkl's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 2nd, 2003
      Location
      Olympia,WA
      Posts
      946
      Cars
      Miata RF, JKU, Cabriolet
      05-14-2019 08:25 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      So basically, Detroit?

      And yea, Illinois is in a death spiral. I think the only thing that can break it is a combo of bankruptcy and a complete draining of its political swamp. It's a shamelessly corrupt state.
      It was incredible moving out of Illinois to another blue state. I've lived in MN and now WA since leaving IL. It has been amazing seeing the difference.

    4. Member HI SPEED's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 3rd, 2004
      Location
      Honolulu
      Posts
      5,922
      05-14-2019 08:31 PM #78
      Totally anecdotal but I have had 4-5 friends move to the Chicago area in the past few years. Despite the cold weather, the high taxes, and the murders it is a thriving area that is very much on the rise.

      I don't know what the total numbers are for population rising/falling, but it has gotten on the map as a viable city for a lot of young people in a way that wasn't true when I was growing up.

      It is a very nice place to be if you can afford to live downtown.

    5. Member
      Join Date
      Dec 9th, 2014
      Location
      Corning, NY
      Posts
      2,829
      Cars
      2020 Toyota 86
      05-14-2019 08:45 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      Totally anecdotal but I have had 4-5 friends move to the Chicago area in the past few years. Despite the cold weather, the high taxes, and the murders it is a thriving area that is very much on the rise.

      I don't know what the total numbers are for population rising/falling, but it has gotten on the map as a viable city for a lot of young people in a way that wasn't true when I was growing up.

      It is a very nice place to be if you can afford to live downtown.
      IL and NY are both vampiric ****holes that suck the citizens of the state dry in order to support their one decent city. If you are not earning 6+ figures and owning property in the one city, you should not be in the state.

    6. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2nd, 2013
      Location
      Below the glide path to KAUS
      Posts
      12,228
      Cars
      Dodge, Toyota, VW, Ford
      05-14-2019 09:45 PM #80
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      Parties? I'm in bed by 9:30.
      Why so late?
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    7. Goes in two directions RAVatar's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 28th, 2005
      Location
      Savannah, GA
      Posts
      3,381
      Cars
      '14 Toy RAV4Runner '13 Ferrari 458 Italia Size: XS
      05-14-2019 10:23 PM #81
      Yeezus. $12K in property tax would definitely make my eyes water, and I grew up in NYC. All my family that's moved out to LI bitches constantly about property taxes there but I don't think I've heard of five figures annually.

      I had to look mine up, actually. 2017 build, 1,501 square feet, 4BD/2BA in metro Savannah. $2404 paid for last year and that's actually more than I thought it was.
      Off Topikstan CSB Thread, First Responder (c) 2013
      IG - the_cama_lens
      OG:SAV912
      Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkEnergist
      The forks I grew up eating with only had 3 prongs. This is probably why I'm so miserable and angry all the time.

    8. I need new ones NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
      Join Date
      Aug 2nd, 2013
      Location
      Below the glide path to KAUS
      Posts
      12,228
      Cars
      Dodge, Toyota, VW, Ford
      05-14-2019 10:31 PM #82
      Quote Originally Posted by RAVatar View Post
      I had to look mine up, actually. 2017 build, 1,501 square feet, 4BD/2BA in metro Savannah. $2404 paid for last year and that's actually more than I thought it was.
      4BD/3BA 2700 sq/ft in Austin and it was $5500 last year.
      Quote Originally Posted by Turbio! View Post
      Pedantry: winning arguments through exasperation since 1651. An Old World Tradition!
      "Now i am become death the destroyer of worlds."-bhagavad gita
      “Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.” -T.S. Eliot

    9. Member dh71704's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 2nd, 2011
      Location
      Illinois
      Posts
      2,114
      Cars
      A Mexican made German car and an American made Japanese van
      05-15-2019 12:00 AM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      4BD/3BA 2700 sq/ft in Austin and it was $5500 last year.
      3BD/1.5BA 1100 sq/ft. (640 sq/ft partial finished basement.) Central Illinois. Right at $3300 this year.
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Rabbit, I'd love your meat.
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Reported.

    10. Geriatric Member spockcat's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 5th, 2003
      Location
      West Coast, not that west coast. Bay area, not that bay area.
      Posts
      41,986
      Cars
      16 Cayman GTS, 16 Colorado Crew, 19 Bolt, 09 Versys, 2017 Barracuda
      05-15-2019 12:28 AM #84
      I could buy a new Nissan Versa every year with what I pay in property taxes. But then again, who would want a Nissan Versa?

    11. Goes in two directions RAVatar's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 28th, 2005
      Location
      Savannah, GA
      Posts
      3,381
      Cars
      '14 Toy RAV4Runner '13 Ferrari 458 Italia Size: XS
      05-15-2019 02:31 AM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      I could buy a new Nissan Versa every year with what I pay in property taxes. But then again, who would want a Nissan Versa?
      Skip out on your taxes, buy a Versa every year, host your own bumper cars tournament in your basement. I don't see how you can lose.
      Off Topikstan CSB Thread, First Responder (c) 2013
      IG - the_cama_lens
      OG:SAV912
      Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkEnergist
      The forks I grew up eating with only had 3 prongs. This is probably why I'm so miserable and angry all the time.

    12. Member Harold's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jul 31st, 2000
      Location
      New Hampshire
      Posts
      4,690
      Cars
      2018 Golf R, '96 993
      05-15-2019 02:45 AM #86
      2 BD, 1 BA 960 sq ft in Manch, NH area $5k in taxes. No income or sales tax, they just roll it into property tax.
      2018 Golf R , '96 993
      past:2004 Passat 4Mo, 1.8T, stick
      '96 Audi S6, forced to sell, F. U. nh emissions
      '87 VW Quantum syncro wagon, got me into quattro,
      '85 GTI, 17 yrs , 280k miles, '75 Nova (first car)

    13. Member KevinC's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 16th, 1999
      Location
      Hereford, AZ
      Posts
      11,002
      Cars
      '19 Golf R, '08 Z4M Coupé
      05-15-2019 04:20 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      The wealthiest citizens of America regularly and consistently argue for raising income taxes on the wealthiest income earners, so ....


      Where the hell did you hear that? Maybe a few wacky rich libs on the coasts, but nobody else. Then when they figured out that Trump's tax overhaul was actually costing them more tax money by losing the state write-off, they screamed bloody murder. Hypocrites.

      The real problem is that you can't trust these tax increases to be used as intended. History is littered with these sad tales. My Arizona example is a rare instance where you can actually see what happens when the money is used as promised, and it's great. But usually, that's not how it turns out.

      Take the Golden Gate Bridge for example. When it was built, a law was passed that once the bridge was paid for, the toll was to be retired and crossing would be free. Makes sense, right? What actually happened? The law was repealed when they realized they didn't want to lose the revenue stream. They use the money for all kinds of crap, and the toll has been steadily rising ever since. When I was a kid living in the bay area, one time when it received a substantial raise, people were paying their toll in pennies to protest, holding up the toll lines. Of course they quickly passed some kind of ordinance that banned pennies completely.

      We don't need more taxes, we need less and more efficient spending. Entitlements are completely out of hand. Lots of stuff needs to be reined in at some point before the whole thing collapses. More taxation is NOT the answer.

      '19 Golf R 6MT
      '08 Z4 M Coupé

    14. Member KevinC's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 16th, 1999
      Location
      Hereford, AZ
      Posts
      11,002
      Cars
      '19 Golf R, '08 Z4M Coupé
      05-15-2019 04:26 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by RAVatar View Post
      Yeezus. $12K in property tax would definitely make my eyes water, and I grew up in NYC.
      New York property taxes are insane. Here in Arizona, I paid just under a grand the last year I owned my house up in Chandler - 1310 sq ft, 3br/2ba, sold for $238k in early 2018. We now live in a new semi-custom home on 4 acres in rural Cochise county, total appraised value at move-in a hair over $500k. Property tax this year about $3200.

      Arizona has turned purple and is gradually turning blue in Phoenix and Tucson, while the rest of the state remains more conservative. I expect more dems in office and the resulting financial chaos that will ensue as time moves on. Sad to watch unfold.

      '19 Golf R 6MT
      '08 Z4 M Coupé

    15. Member KevinC's Avatar
      Join Date
      Feb 16th, 1999
      Location
      Hereford, AZ
      Posts
      11,002
      Cars
      '19 Golf R, '08 Z4M Coupé
      05-15-2019 04:26 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      I could buy a new Nissan Versa every year with what I pay in property taxes. But then again, who would want a Nissan Versa?

      '19 Golf R 6MT
      '08 Z4 M Coupé

    16. Member HI SPEED's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 3rd, 2004
      Location
      Honolulu
      Posts
      5,922
      05-15-2019 06:45 AM #90
      As much as I appreciate the cheap property taxes in Hawaii the schools are third world. Count me in the camp that thinks we should raise taxes a bit(with all the money going to DOE).

      Many people rightfully trash CA for their high taxes, but the one policy they have in place that I really think should be more widely adopted is that with prop 13, you can lock in your tax rate. As you age your neighbors are paying today's rates, but you pay what you were paying when you were in your prime and earning a good salary.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978...Proposition_13

      My aunt in NYC had to leave after her yearly property tax reached 25% of her gross pension. The house was paid off but she couldn't afford to stay on a fixed income. That just isn't right IMO.

      My God mother on the other hand is paying a very reasonable rate in the Bay area since they bought in 1985.

      We need to do better taking care of our kids, and our elderly. It sucks that people in their prime need to shoulder that burden, but we are in this together.
      Last edited by HI SPEED; 05-15-2019 at 06:48 AM.

    17. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      2,568
      Cars
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 07:58 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      As much as I appreciate the cheap property taxes in Hawaii the schools are third world. Count me in the camp that thinks we should raise taxes a bit(with all the money going to DOE).

      Many people rightfully trash CA for their high taxes, but the one policy they have in place that I really think should be more widely adopted is that with prop 13, you can lock in your tax rate. As you age your neighbors are paying today's rates, but you pay what you were paying when you were in your prime and earning a good salary.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978...Proposition_13

      My aunt in NYC had to leave after her yearly property tax reached 25% of her gross pension. The house was paid off but she couldn't afford to stay on a fixed income. That just isn't right IMO.

      My God mother on the other hand is paying a very reasonable rate in the Bay area since they bought in 1985.

      We need to do better taking care of our kids, and our elderly. It sucks that people in their prime need to shoulder that burden, but we are in this together.
      This is getting OT/into politics, but again, the bolded is another place we need to spend smarter, not more. Here in IL, teachers are paid great, but we also have a zillion $100k+/yr administrators who do jack **** for the kids, we sped a ton on gold-plated pension benefits, etc. my SIL is a public high school teacher, she makes probably around $120k/yr. She started just out of college, meaning at about 38 she’s only a few years away from being eligible to retire with 80% of her salary + COLA for the rest of her life. And if she hits that milestone and keeps working, the pension gets richer every year after that. That’s insanity. She was pissed a couple years ago because it was suddenly going to cost her ~$100/mo for her heath insurance for a family of four; it was previously free. My wife and I pay ~$600/mo for similar coverage through our employers. And then if we try to cut the spending on education (read: not increase it YoY) the board and teachers’ union holds it hostage by cutting some desirable program (music or art or football or something) to scare parents into fighting the “cuts” when in reality there is a ton of administrative BS that could be cut but never is.

      And all of this ignores your suggestion to send more money to the federal DoE, which is a gigantic waste in and of itself; we already have 50 state DoEs, why is there a massive federal one to oversee a system run by the states? It’s alllll overhead, and all a gigantic waste.

      Look, I’m a man who bought a very expensive very small and crappy house solely because it was in the BEST school district I could afford to buy into, a man who has a gold-plated private college education and went on to get an MBA. I think education is super important. But that doesn’t mean we need to just continue to blindly light tons of money on fire to fund it, just because the people who profit from us doing so tell us we should.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    18. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      2,568
      Cars
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 08:13 AM #92
      And ironically I found this in my FB feed this AM:

      https://www.illinoispolicy.org/more-...ficiency-bill/

      More than 400 school district administrators across Illinois have filed witness slips in opposition to House Bill 3053, a bill that could enable property tax relief while ensuring more education dollars reach students and classrooms first, rather than district administrative bodies.

      Over 130 of the school district administrators who filed in opposition to the Classrooms First Act collect six-figure taxpayer-backed salaries, as of May 13.

      ...

      HB 3053 would create the School District Efficiency Commission, tasked with reviewing the state’s 852 school districts, which together consume nearly two-thirds of property taxes collected in Illinois. The commission would then make recommendations for consolidating school districts, with the goal of reducing the count by a minimum of 25%.

      Importantly, consolidation of school districts strictly involves merging administrative bodies, not closing individual schools. On average, Illinois school districts serve just 2,400 students per district, the sixth-lowest among states with school populations over 1 million, as of 2018 – suggesting ample room for cost-savings.

      If Illinois served the same number of students per district as Virginia, it would have just 210 districts, 644 fewer than today. The same is true for the two largest student populations – California and Texas. If Illinois served the same number of students per district as California or Texas, the Prairie State today would have 514 and 398 fewer districts, respectively.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    19. Member HI SPEED's Avatar
      Join Date
      Sep 3rd, 2004
      Location
      Honolulu
      Posts
      5,922
      05-15-2019 08:55 AM #93
      That may be the case in IL, but here in HI teachers are certainly not getting rich. My buddy has his master's of education, and about 10 years of tenure at this point, and still needs to bartend, and do corporate videography 5 nights a week to keep his lights on.

      We have a really hard time retaining any teachers since you simply cannot afford to be a public school teacher here. I think they should all get a raise, and should earn a professional wage.

      I understand it isn't this way everywhere, and agree that Admin costs are out of control. That isn't isolated to education though, everywhere you look, even in the private sector there are armies of people just spinning around in their chairs shuffling papers around who could be gone tomorrow with no effect on the output of the operation.
      Last edited by HI SPEED; 05-15-2019 at 08:57 AM.

    20. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      2,568
      Cars
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 08:58 AM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by HI SPEED View Post
      That may be the case in IL, but here in HI teachers are certainly not getting rich. My buddy has his master's of education, and about 10 years of tenure at this point, and still needs to bartend, and do corporate videography 5 nights a week to keep his lights on.

      We have a really hard time retaining any teachers since you simply cannot afford to be a public school teacher here. I think they should all get a raise, and should earn a professional wage.

      I understand it isn't this way everywhere, and agree that Admin costs are out of control. That isn't isolated to education though, everywhere you look, even in the private sector there are armies of people just spinning around in their chairs shuffling papers around who could be gone tomorrow with no effect on the output of the operation.
      But the problem is teachers are not paid by the feds. So when you advocate raising federal taxes for “education” you are advocating bureaucracy. You need to fix it in your state.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    21. Member
      Join Date
      Jan 18th, 2018
      Posts
      5,107
      Cars
      '16 TLX SH-AWD- NA is BEST
      05-15-2019 09:17 AM #95
      I want to give HI SPEED the benefit of the doubt and assume he was speaking to more local taxes to the Hawaii DOE. I think every state has its own DOE.

      I would also gladly pay more taxes for better teacher pay. We as a society are becoming so short sighted and profit driven we are starting to lose sight of the value of **** like education. There are problems with education administration but that's hardly justification for burning the whole thing down as many advocate to do.

    22. Member
      Join Date
      Jun 19th, 2002
      Location
      CLT NC
      Posts
      10,478
      Cars
      3 Audis, 1 Honda, 1 GMC
      05-15-2019 09:23 AM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      I grew up in the Chicago burbs, and my parents and 2 brothers are still there....
      My dad's entire family grew up in Chicago. Over the last 80 years if you expand it out to include the in-law families, back in the 80s it might have been 60-70 people, all in.

      Today there's 1 left. Yes one. Retired and living in Oregon, IL on the Rock River. The rest headed south to Texas, Georgia, the Carolinas and Florida.

    23. Member
      Join Date
      Jun 19th, 2002
      Location
      CLT NC
      Posts
      10,478
      Cars
      3 Audis, 1 Honda, 1 GMC
      05-15-2019 09:30 AM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      But the problem is teachers are not paid by the feds. So when you advocate raising federal taxes for “education” you are advocating bureaucracy. You need to fix it in your state.
      Yep. A 20 year teacher with a Masters in my old K-12 district in MD makes ~$40-45K a year more than here in my current district. Union vs non-union.

      It's an issue that needs to be fixed asap. Teacher shortages are no joke. I live in a high growth / high income town and we cannot find enough teachers, subs, bus drivers anything...yet the state legislature says maybe a 1-2% salary increase will help. Yea, ok?

      And states should tax cars annually on value, just like home prop taxes. Makes the ICE/EV equation fair. And agreed w/ AZGOLF about gas taxes just hurting the working class.

    24. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
      Join Date
      Jun 6th, 2000
      Location
      Phoenix area
      Posts
      33,808
      05-15-2019 10:56 AM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by KevinC View Post
      Where the hell did you hear that? Maybe a few wacky rich libs on the coasts, but nobody else. Then when they figured out that Trump's tax overhaul was actually costing them more tax money by losing the state write-off, they screamed bloody murder. Hypocrites.
      Jeff Bezos and Warren Buffet said so, and the leaders of the Democratic party all say that their rich donors want their taxes raised so I think we should give them what they want. Clearly if at least two billionaires want their taxes to go up, that's basically the same as a majority anyway.

    25. 05-15-2019 12:20 PM #99
      So what does a tax whack state like Illinois drive?

      Cars 4,782,850 (44.95%)
      CUVs 2,404,197 (22.59%)
      SUVs 1,113,567 (10.46%)
      Pickups 1,470,167 (13.82%)
      Vans/Minivans 870,456 (8.18%

      Gas 10,233,912 (96.17%)
      Diesel 211,688 (1.99%)
      Hybrid 172,969 (1.63%)
      Electric 12,422 (0.12%)
      Plug-In Hybrid 10,246 (0.10%)

      https://autoalliance.org/in-your-state/IL/

      Most popular cars?

      1. Chevrolet Impala
      2. Chevrolet Malibu
      3. Toyota Camry
      4. Honda Accord
      5. Nissan Altima

      "It's also interesting that the Pontiac Grand Prix is in the top 20 most popular cars in Illinois even though it hasn't been manufactured since 2008."

      https://www.everquote.com/illinois/b...-popular-cars/

    26. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
      Join Date
      Oct 19th, 2016
      Location
      Arlington Heights, the center of the universe
      Posts
      2,568
      Cars
      AP1 and JLU
      05-15-2019 12:43 PM #100
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Yep. A 20 year teacher with a Masters in my old K-12 district in MD makes ~$40-45K a year more than here in my current district. Union vs non-union.

      It's an issue that needs to be fixed asap. Teacher shortages are no joke. I live in a high growth / high income town and we cannot find enough teachers, subs, bus drivers anything...yet the state legislature says maybe a 1-2% salary increase will help. Yea, ok?
      If someone was going to raise my taxes and direct it to actual TEACHER salaries, directly to people who are in the classroom with kids, I'd be all for it. But that's not how it works. They'll blow it on other stupid **** and just come back with the hand out again next year.

      And states should tax cars annually on value, just like home prop taxes. Makes the ICE/EV equation fair. And agreed w/ AZGOLF about gas taxes just hurting the working class.
      Why should we pay property tax on cars? I already pay SUBSTANTIAL sales tax on cars at the point of purchase (8.25% in suburban Cook County, 9.5% in Chicago proper). There's no reason we should pay continued property tax on cars. Now, if you wanted to argue EVs are getting a free ride, I'd say you need to come up with a tax that approximates what others pay. Take the fleet average mileage (say, 12k miles) and the fleet average fuel economy (say 25mpg) and that's 480 gallons of gas annually, times the $.19/gal we pay in IL for gas tax, and charge them $91, I could see an argument for that. Or double the mileage, I don't care, but something along those lines.

      But the reality is, cars cause such a small percentage of road wear, which is what the gas tax is supposed to cover, it doesn't really matter. It's all trucks doing the damage anyways. Do they really need an extra $91 from each EV driver?
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst 123456 LastLast

    Similar Threads

    1. you get $1000 to buy something car related: what to get?
      By SHOstoppa in forum The Car Lounge
      Replies: 48
      Last Post: 10-19-2004, 11:36 PM
    2. Replies: 23
      Last Post: 08-09-2002, 04:21 AM
    3. What do YOU look for when buying a car?
      By catalytic in forum The Car Lounge
      Replies: 19
      Last Post: 11-30-2001, 05:53 PM

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •