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    1. Senior Member
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      05-20-2019 04:31 PM #126
      I didn't realize that battery degradation on the Leafs was that big of an issue. Is it down to the air cooling?

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    3. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      05-20-2019 04:33 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by Numbersix View Post
      I didn't realize that battery degradation on the Leafs was that big of an issue. Is it down to the air cooling?
      Essentially. The Leaf is a great car for teenagers. Cheap, safe, and they can't go too far.
      Slow Car Fast

    4. Member 2 doors's Avatar
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      05-20-2019 06:45 PM #128
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      Essentially. The Leaf is a great car for teenagers. Cheap, safe, and they can't go too far.
      My oldest daughter just turned 12 but if she needs her own car in 4 years this is exactly what I’m doing.

    5. Member OOOO-A3's Avatar
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      05-20-2019 07:06 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      88.5% ... 33,481 miles
      ...
      54k miles ... 79.69%
      Dude.

      This is why people have been gently nudging you towards any other EV, ones with liquid cooling. I really respect Nissan being first to market and getting EVs started into the main stream, but their insistence on sticking with air cooling and ChaDeMo DC charging isn’t doing themselves, their customers, or EV reputations any favors.

      How about a used Hyundai Ioniq?

    6. Member someguy123's Avatar
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      Handed in my car enthusiast 'card'.
      05-20-2019 08:36 PM #130
      88.5% from a 2015 leaf is pretty normal. That’s like 2.8% loss per year. If it was bought in 2014, that’s even less loss per year.

    7. 05-20-2019 11:50 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by someguy123 View Post
      88.5% from a 2015 leaf is pretty normal. That’s like 2.8% loss per year.
      Yep, and a 2013 at 79.7% capacity has lost just under 3.4% per year. To put it another way, the 2013 has lost 3.7% per 10,000 miles... and that 2016 has lost 3.43% per 10,000 miles. That really doesn't seem so bad. I think I can live with it.

      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      This is why people have been gently nudging you towards any other EV, ones with liquid cooling. I really respect Nissan being first to market and getting EVs started into the main stream, but their insistence on sticking with air cooling and ChaDeMo DC charging isn’t doing themselves, their customers, or EV reputations any favors.
      Get ready for a shock, because I am about to spin this into a defense of Nissan rather than an attack on them.

      Yes, we've all been complaining--perhaps myself loudest of all--about how the Leaf's battery degrades. It's easy to see, since Nissan put the battery health gauge right there in the instrument cluster. But, wait a minute--no other manufacturer had the balls to put a similar gauge in their BEV vehicle. Why not? After all, if they are so smug about their superior liquid-cooled battery not degrading over time, you'd think they'd want to brag about it with a gauge, no?

      We know all lithium ion batteries degrade over time--anybody with a smart phone can tell you that. And while it is true that our phones do not employ liquid cooling for their batteries, nevertheless there must be some degradation on other BEVs. I've spoken about the LeafSpy app, and how it lets you know the precise condition of the battery health of any Leaf... but what about non-Leaf BEVs? While my app won't work for them, is there a way to scan those cars?

      As it turns out, there is... at least for the 500e. It's an app called AlfaOBD. I just watched an eye-opening video where a 500e owner scans his car, a 2014 with 44,203 miles. The guy is a bit disappointed when he sees his car display a battery SOH of 86.27%. This is a loss of 2.75% per year, or 3.10% per 10,000 miles. While that represents slower degradation than the Leaf, the difference is hardly dramatic. (Yes, I realize this is a sample size of one vehicle. Nevertheless, it makes me feel less bad about the Leaf's air-cooled battery.)

      Skip ahead to 3:00 or so:



      In other news, we did take in that 2013 Leaf this evening. It had an ~ 85% charge when the guy turned it in to us. As soon as he left in his new Outback Touring, I grabbed the key, took the car over to our L2 charger, and plugged it in to top it off. Once it was full (with the range guess-o-meter showing 75 miles), I then put it in the employee parking area.

      Conveniently, tomorrow is my day off work. My plan is to go to the office, throw my plate in the car, and just go for a lengthy drive. I think I'll drive it to lunch at an as-yet-undetermined restaurant ~30 miles away from work, then drive back. I am hoping this will give me a decent feel for the car's true range capability. If it seems acceptable, I'll buy the car.
      Dempsey Bowling
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      My fleet: 91 Miata (5.0L swap project), 98 Wrangler Sport, 01 Suburban 2500 8.1L, 80 Grand Prix LJ 454, 86 GLHS #75, 13 Leaf SV

    8. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      05-20-2019 11:56 PM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      If it seems acceptable, I'll buy the car.
      The Leaf is just so frumpy though. The 500e at least looks like you can take a joke.

      Slow Car Fast

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      05-21-2019 12:10 AM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Conveniently, tomorrow is my day off work. My plan is to go to the office, throw my plate in the car, and just go for a lengthy drive. I think I'll drive it to lunch at an as-yet-undetermined restaurant ~30 miles away from work, then drive back. I am hoping this will give me a decent feel for the car's true range capability. If it seems acceptable, I'll buy the car.
      Hopefully it's less than 30 miles one way, and hopefully that's not on the highway. I'd have serious range anxiety about taking the car with <80% capacity on a 60 mile highway trip, even moreso if you plan on using any climate control. Do all the leaves you're looking at have DCFC available? they're all ChAdeMo right? double check the availability of L2/DC chargers on your route for safety.

      Welcome to the real world of 1st gen EV ownership! (or test drive-rship at least)

    10. Member OOOO-A3's Avatar
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      05-21-2019 12:58 AM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Yes, we've all been complaining--perhaps myself loudest of all--about how the Leaf's battery degrades. It's easy to see, since Nissan put the battery health gauge right there in the instrument cluster. But, wait a minute--no other manufacturer had the balls to put a similar gauge in their BEV vehicle. Why not? After all, if they are so smug about their superior liquid-cooled battery not degrading over time, you'd think they'd want to brag about it with a gauge, no?
      No, because the issue doesn't exist in the same way it does with a Leaf. LiFePo cells will reduce slightly in capacity.... and then level off. This is documented with literally millions of miles on Teslas, Volts (which are subject to *more* charge/discharge cycles than a BEV), etc., and has nothing to do with balls or smugness.

      While data is not the plural of anecdote, I'll stand by my 6 years and 75k miles in a Volt (where every battery cycle involves a discharge to 0 miles and full recharge) with NO loss of indicated range. If you really want a Leaf, by all means, go for it. But claiming "both sides are the same" isn't any more true for EVs than it is for political parties. Leaf air-cooled battery degradation has been a thing since the first model year, and liquid-cooled batteries from multiple other manufacturers don't have the same problem. This is established knowledge.

      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      We know all lithium ion batteries degrade over time--anybody with a smart phone can tell you that. And while it is true that our phones do not employ liquid cooling for their batteries, nevertheless there must be some degradation on other BEVs. I've spoken about the LeafSpy app, and how it lets you know the precise condition of the battery health of any Leaf... but what about non-Leaf BEVs? While my app won't work for them, is there a way to scan those cars?
      False equivalence. Phones charge to 100% of battery capacity and discharge to near 0% (e.g. they run until the voltage falls off a cliff and it shuts down with a tiny bit remaining). Cars have built-in headspace and footspace in the battery, so "full charge" is not 100% of capacity, nor is "0 miles" near zero capacity. Therefore, charge/discharge cycles causing degradation on a phone is NOT an "...it stands to reason...." type of comparison with cars. It's easy enough to track capacity through range, a separate meter isn't needed except on cars (Leaf) where the battery degradation due to heat is a continuing process and not just an initial plateau.

      Here's some real data: https://www.voltstats.net/Stats/Details/1579

      That's the link for the VoltStats graph for sparkie, which is currently at 477,600 miles. That guy has a regular, consistent, long commute. You can clearly see the proportion of EV and gas miles on his car hasn't changed. if he was getting significant degradation as he approaches half a million miles on that early-build Gen1 Volt, then the percentage of electric miles would be decreased and the percentage of gas miles would be increased given the same commute, but that's not the case.

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      05-21-2019 01:12 AM #135
      ^ to be fair, the volt has a 16kWh battery to go <40 miles, which is very conservative. GM left tons of headroom to account for eventual degradation (and then some!).

    12. 05-21-2019 01:21 AM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      The Leaf is just so frumpy though. The 500e at least looks like you can take a joke.
      Just so ya know: I did go and drive a 500e this afternoon. Here is the exact car:



      Just as TCL told me, it was definitely more entertaining than the Leaf. It even seemed to be extremely efficient. Here were my "scores" at the end of my drive:



      Early in my drive, I looked over my left shoulder to change lanes. I couldn't see anything out the rear side window--it was too small, and from that angle it was completely useless. That should have been my first clue about how small this car was, but I didn't think of it at the time. After the drive, I spent time in their parking lot checking out the rest of the car. When I tried getting in the back, I was stunned. The 500 is so small, it makes my '97 Metro 2dr look like a stretch limo by comparison. I am not kidding. There is no way I could squeeze my feet behind/below the driver's seat, and my head was in full contact with the headliner anyway. Yes, I always told myself to treat the Metro as a 2-seater car; if I had a 500, it genuinely would be a 2-seater car. Period. So it is out of the running for me at this time.

      A short time later I got in the Leaf to move it across our parking lot. Just sitting behind the wheel, it immediately felt... comfortable. Natural, even. There was space everywhere. I could see out of it. It was relaxed. No, it's not exciting... but I have other cars for that. The Leaf is exactly what I want my EV to be.

      Quote Originally Posted by zmt2 View Post
      Hopefully it's less than 30 miles one way, and hopefully that's not on the highway. I'd have serious range anxiety about taking the car with <80% capacity on a 60 mile highway trip, even moreso if you plan on using any climate control. Do all the leaves you're looking at have DCFC available? they're all ChAdeMo right? double check the availability of L2/DC chargers on your route for safety.
      Hey--if I'm gonna try it out, I'm gonna try it out. My friend Mike--who is now considering selling his own Metro and replacing it with an EV, thanks to me--will be riding along to witness this experiment. I have changed my plan slightly, and I have selected a non-restaurant destination exactly 31.4 miles from my dealership. (We'll stop to eat at some random place along the way based on our mood at the time.) I will avoid the interstate highway entirely; my route will keep us on a major surface street all the way through the Salt Lake valley. There are plenty of stop lights, offering plenty of opportunities for regenerative braking. The forecast calls for lots of rain, so I expect we'll be using the climate control throughout the drive.

      While there is a public L2 charger less than 1/4 mile from the destination (plus a couple more along the way), I don't intend to use them--after all, the whole point is to see how the car handles a 65-mile trip. But if I do panic and feel we might not make it, perhaps I'll stop somewhere.

      Wish us luck.
      Dempsey Bowling
      Sales Consultant at Doug Smith Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep/Ram/Subaru/Kia/used
      My fleet: 91 Miata (5.0L swap project), 98 Wrangler Sport, 01 Suburban 2500 8.1L, 80 Grand Prix LJ 454, 86 GLHS #75, 13 Leaf SV

    13. 05-21-2019 01:32 AM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      I'll stand by my 6 years and 75k miles in a Volt (where every battery cycle involves a discharge to 0 miles and full recharge) with NO loss of indicated range.
      And as I've said many times (though perhaps not in this thread), I genuinely admire the Volt for its engineering excellence.

      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      liquid-cooled batteries from multiple other manufacturers don't have the same problem. This is established knowledge.
      Then what is the explanation for the 500e?

      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      Cars have built-in headspace and footspace in the battery, so "full charge" is not 100% of capacity, nor is "0 miles" near zero capacity.
      Is this true for all BEVs? It is well documented that the Volt only charges to ~80% total capacity and discharges to ~20% total capacity, but what about others? Does the 500e do that? Does the Focus? Or the Spark? (I ask because I genuinely do not know.)

      Quote Originally Posted by OOOO-A3 View Post
      That's impressive.
      Dempsey Bowling
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      My fleet: 91 Miata (5.0L swap project), 98 Wrangler Sport, 01 Suburban 2500 8.1L, 80 Grand Prix LJ 454, 86 GLHS #75, 13 Leaf SV

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      05-21-2019 09:17 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Is this true for all BEVs? It is well documented that the Volt only charges to ~80% total capacity and discharges to ~20% total capacity, but what about others? Does the 500e do that? Does the Focus? Or the Spark? (I ask because I genuinely do not know.)
      To varying degrees, yes. GM tends to be the most conservative, I'm not sure of each of the other manufacturers' policies and programming for their BMS. BMW tends to use a lot of the available capacity and supposedly can/does release more and more as the car ages to maintain range (done through dealer software updates/configs). As another anecdote, our ~35k mile 2014 i3 is still showing 90 miles on the GoM on ideal climate days with a favorable driving history. BMW changed their connectedDrive website so I'm not sure where the SoC info lives on there now, but in the past one could view their car's SoC by visiting the site and logging in. Last I checked the battery was a hair's width from 18kWh which would suggest very minimal degradation thus far.

    15. Member Unilateral Phase Detractor's Avatar
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      05-21-2019 09:25 AM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Is this true for all BEVs? It is well documented that the Volt only charges to ~80% total capacity and discharges to ~20% total capacity, but what about others? Does the 500e do that? Does the Focus? Or the Spark? (I ask because I genuinely do not know.)
      100% indicated on the Focus is actually 90%; maybe a hair over 4 volts per cell. I don't know about the bottom end as I'm so rarely at a low level.

    16. Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
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      05-21-2019 11:21 AM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post

      A short time later I got in the Leaf to move it across our parking lot. Just sitting behind the wheel, it immediately felt... comfortable. Natural, even. There was space everywhere. I could see out of it. It was relaxed. No, it's not exciting... but I have other cars for that. The Leaf is exactly what I want my EV to be.


      Actually, once you get to the end of the GOM's range, it gets exciting, because it keeps yelling at you to stop and charge, increasing your range anxiety if you already had it.

      But yeah, what I loved most about the LEAF was that it drove like a very expensive luxury car. Soft, comfortable and quiet. I've got an aircooled beetle if I want serious sports car feel, but the LEAF is a lazy boy appliance, which is exactly what I want from my electric car.

      Chris
      | 2017 Elantra | 2018 JLU Sport | 2003 Mercedes S55 AMG (for sale) | 2001 BMW 740 iL | 1974 SuperBeetle | 1962 Ford Unibody | The poster formerly known as 200HP4dr

    17. Member OOOO-A3's Avatar
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      05-21-2019 11:58 AM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by zmt2 View Post
      ^ to be fair, the volt has a 16kWh battery to go <40 miles, which is very conservative. GM left tons of headroom to account for eventual degradation (and then some!).
      Yes, it was designed in a time where there simply wasn't the established experience of this battery tech and charge cycles in cars, and they were *very* cautious. Remember, this was 2007-2008 tech, the Model S didn't exist.... we know way more now than they did.

      For the headroom accounting for eventual degradation... depends on what you mean exactly. If you mean using the middle part of the battery capacity was to prevent degradation, then yes. If you mean that they left room to use more of the capacity to keep the range rating the same as degradation occurred, then no. That would require software changes to use more and more of the remaining space to maintain range, and that has not happened at all. There are SO MANY things on the car that I would change in software updates if I were GM.... but they don't do that. Complete opposite of Tesla's continual improvement of existing cars.

      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Then what is the explanation for the 500e?


    18. Member G0to60's Avatar
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      05-21-2019 01:18 PM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      Early in my drive, I looked over my left shoulder to change lanes. I couldn't see anything out the rear side window--it was too small, and from that angle it was completely useless. That should have been my first clue about how small this car was, but I didn't think of it at the time. After the drive, I spent time in their parking lot checking out the rest of the car. When I tried getting in the back, I was stunned. The 500 is so small, it makes my '97 Metro 2dr look like a stretch limo by comparison. I am not kidding. There is no way I could squeeze my feet behind/below the driver's seat, and my head was in full contact with the headliner anyway. Yes, I always told myself to treat the Metro as a 2-seater car; if I had a 500, it genuinely would be a 2-seater car. Period. So it is out of the running for me at this time.
      I totally forgot about the giant blind spot! Yeah, I got good at using the little convex mirror that they put on the end of the side mirror.

      I'm glad you tried it though. Many people wouldn't even give it a shot.

      I hope the Leaf road trip goes well and that's the car for you.

    19. Member Ark6's Avatar
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      05-21-2019 10:25 PM #143
      Why not an e-golf? Isn't that in your price range?

    20. 05-22-2019 01:50 AM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by Crispyfritter View Post
      Actually, once you get to the end of the GOM's range, it gets exciting, because it keeps yelling at you to stop and charge, increasing your range anxiety if you already had it.
      You ain't just whistlin' Dixie.


      Mike and I met at work, ready for adventure. I had decided we would drive to NPS to browse around, then stop somewhere along the return trip for lunch. Ever the planner, I knew the exact route were were going to take:



      As one last way of prepping for the trip, I aired up all four (non-low rolling resistance) tires to 40 psi. Other than that, I figured the car was as ready as it was going to be. I reset all the trip/eco meters, then took this photo right after we buckled ourselves in:

      (Sorry for all the dust)


      With that, we were off. Mike said he wanted to make a pit stop for a drink, which I had already planned to do at the first convenient gas station (ha!) we came to. But just as I pulled onto the street, Mike hit me with another request. He pulled his old, expired Jeep registration out of his coat pocket, showed it to me, then said, "since we're going up that way, let's stop at the DMV so I can renew my registration." The DMV in question is at the red X on the map above, and you'll notice it is miles off of my planned route.

      And that is why, a mere 200 yards from the dealership, my body instinctively guides the car onto I-15. It immediately dawns on me: this is the last place I want to be, and I express that thought to Mike just as we are getting up to speed. I quickly take the very next exit, and then we zig-zag our way to the DMV on a variety of surface street frontage roads. Our stop there is short and sweet, and we are back on the road--with new registration in hand--in less than 4 minutes.

      A little more frontage road driving plus cutting across on one major road and we end up on my desired route at last (at the word Riverton on the map for those who are curious). From here is a straight shot the rest of the way. The road is zoned 45 MPH, and I find it difficult to keep from creeping up beyond that speed--with no engine noise for feedback, its not so easy to estimate your road speed. I have the climate fan on the whole way, but it is just blowing in fresh air without the heater. The wipers are on intermittent, and the stereo is playing mp3s off a thumb drive--I am trying to simulate a typical drive, after all. Once I am parked at NPS, I take the following photos:





      We've only used 40% of the battery? Wow. Mike and I start congratulating ourselves as we head inside to shop.

      We leave and hour or so later, and the rain is coming down hard. Wipers are on full, and the windows are fogging up so I need to turn on the heater and the rear window defogger. Worse, there is standing water everywhere and I can hear the tires sloshing their way through it (and throwing lots of it up into the wheelwells). I know all this is taking its toll on our range, as the economy meter is showing a lower average compared to our trip into town. Oh, well.

      We stop for fast food at a convenient place, but the rain has not let up when it's time to get back on the road. Even still, I have no worries about the trip... until we hit Bluffdale. That's where the road begins a steady, 4-mile uphill climb and the speed limit increases to 55 MPH. I don't want to be a rolling roadblock, and this is supposed to be a test/experiment anyway, right? But as I'm climbing the hill at the double nickel, the range indicator keeps dropping rapidly. I know my economy is low, so I switch the cluster to the battery percentage readout instead.

      When the battery drops to 21%, I suddenly learn what Chris referenced above. So many flashing lights appear on the dashboard, for a minute I think I'm in a keno parlor. There is a yellow warning light in the upper 'arc' cluster, another yellow warning light in the main cluster, an entire warning screen (with a yellow warning logo) appears on the NAV screen, plus the estimated range figure begins to flash. Just in case I missed all that, a recorded voice also comes on over the stereo speakers telling me the battery voltage is low. If I wasn't worried about making it back to work before, I sure as hell am now. Sheesh.

      Thankfully, at that point we only had 10 miles to go. We managed to make it back to the dealership with power to spare:





      With that, I'd say the test was a success. We managed a 65-mile trip without any charging (and there were multiple chargers along the way we could have used had there been a need/desire). For the vast majority of my day-to-day driving, this car would be entirely adequate.

      I think I'm gonna do it.
      Dempsey Bowling
      Sales Consultant at Doug Smith Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep/Ram/Subaru/Kia/used
      My fleet: 91 Miata (5.0L swap project), 98 Wrangler Sport, 01 Suburban 2500 8.1L, 80 Grand Prix LJ 454, 86 GLHS #75, 13 Leaf SV

    21. 05-22-2019 03:05 AM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by Chris_V View Post
      Most people don't have that problem. Even in this thread. My Volt is 5 years old and it still has the same range that it did when new. Volts have routinely gone 150-200k miles with no noticeable range degradation (of course, like yours, they only charge to 80% and "empty" is still 10-15% charge). We've seen 5-10% degradation on early Teslas after 100k+ miles or so. If that was an issue, like on the eGolf earlier, it's a problem with that car and should have been taken care of under warranty.
      Your experience may vary.

      That's what springs to my mind after 3 years with the X5 40e.

      It charged 100%, each time, for years per the onboard computer. It was the distance that it was able to cover in full electric that got worse over time even in the forced EV mode only.

      It gets a lot colder here than in Maryland (where it appears you reside) and it would sit 12+ hours outside at work so maybe that's the issue. Dunno. I do know that I've got a Bosch 30amp charger in my garage all hooked up to the breaker panel ready for the next EV vehicle we get.
      Current: 2019 BMW X5 xDrive 40i, 2011 BMW 328i xDrive Sports Wagon, 2005 Nissan Xterra 4.0L 4WD SE, and 1987 Mercedes-Benz 560SL
      Old: 2016 BMW X5 40e, 2010 Dodge Ram, 2008 Subaru Outback, 2001 Dodge Dakota, 2000 VW Golf 1.8T, 1991 Dodge Ramcharger, and 1988 Mercury Topaz AWD

    22. Member 2 doors's Avatar
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      05-22-2019 08:10 AM #146
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      With that, I'd say the test was a success. We managed a 65-mile trip without any charging (and there were multiple chargers along the way we could have used had there been a need/desire). For the vast majority of my day-to-day driving, this car would be entirely adequate.

      I think I'm gonna do it.

      Good write up!. I don't think in 3+ years of short range EV ownership I've ever gotten my guess-o-meter down to single digits of remaining range. My e-Golf similarly let's you know when you get below 20 miles, but not with that amount of fanfare. I think you should do it. You're the perfect candidate for this type of vehicle.

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      05-22-2019 08:12 AM #147
      Quote Originally Posted by TurboMinivan View Post
      I think I'm gonna do it.

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      05-22-2019 11:14 AM #148
      Just curious, and maybe this has already been discussed. I feel like the 2nd gen volts are amazing cars for what they're selling for. The EV range is going to suit most people's commute, and if it doesn't, you still have the safety net of the range extender.

      I'm a sucker for the volt, always have been, always will be. Its one of the greatest, over engineered cars (from GM) that never got proper marketing and/or the respect it deserved.

      Why not get one of them?

    25. Member Crispyfritter's Avatar
      Join Date
      Nov 21st, 2001
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      SW KS
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      13,545
      05-22-2019 11:20 AM #149
      Do it! I've been eyeballing used ones. Right now, there's one on the FB trader in LA for $3500 that has 81k miles on it. Even if I replace the batteries at a cost of $2900, I'm still doing okay in the car.

      Chris
      | 2017 Elantra | 2018 JLU Sport | 2003 Mercedes S55 AMG (for sale) | 2001 BMW 740 iL | 1974 SuperBeetle | 1962 Ford Unibody | The poster formerly known as 200HP4dr

    26. Member Ark6's Avatar
      Join Date
      Dec 14th, 2007
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      San Francisco ,CA
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      15 Mazda 3, 07 Ducati Monster S2R
      05-22-2019 11:40 AM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by Crispyfritter View Post
      Do it! I've been eyeballing used ones. Right now, there's one on the FB trader in LA for $3500 that has 81k miles on it. Even if I replace the batteries at a cost of $2900, I'm still doing okay in the car.

      Chris
      Is there an car that you don't eyeball? Lol

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