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Coilover woes...

10K views 43 replies 12 participants last post by  strangetdi 
#1 · (Edited)
I had coilovers installed a little over a month and a 1/2 ago. Needless to say the place that installed them did not do the rears properly. The fronts appear to be fine. They did try to fix their mistake, but still did not get it right, even though it was much better ride than the first time.

Just so everyone is clear on this: the rears are a divorced spring setup, meaning the the springs are mounted separate from the damper/shock body.

The first try:

They got the ride height correct on front and rear. But I knew something was not right almost right away. The rear dampers were so extended that they had less than 1" travel so any bump was super violent. The nut that bolts the damper to the rear mount was loose, I could turn it by hand. Maybe it was tight when I first got the car back, but all that banging around my have loosened it up. After a week or so, I let them know I was coming in so they could make it right. I had to come back two days later due to scheduling.

Pics of their first try:

Driver Rear (car on ground):



Passenger Rear (car on ground) :



Damper body almost threaded out fully (Car lifted on jack stand):



The 2nd try:

When I brought back the car and they had a look they admitted they F'd up on the back. So they took the car in while I worked from their lounge for a few hours. The indicated that they called the manufacturer to trouble shoot. They were able to get the rear shocks to have more travel, but they stated they had to lower the car an additional 1/2" to get it right. Because of this, they also lowered the fronts a 1/2" to match. Sounds like BS to me, since any ride height from these coilovers (1" to 2.5") should have been able to be coordinated. They got the ride height correct the first time, so why did they have to lower it more?

Driver Rear (Car on Ground):



Passenger Rear (Car on Ground):



So I am not bottoming out anymore, but the rear springs are too compressed. Their position on the perch would indicate a high ride height, but this is too low as my summer wheels rub on very little bumps and variations on the road, so I had to take them off after a few hours.

So need to raise these at least an inch.
I have looked at so many install videos since all this, I’m about to attempt to fix myself....

Looks good, but not driveable IMHO until it gets raised:







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#2 ·
Which coilovers are these? I'm trying to figure out why the shock body is threaded, because all of your height should be adjusted at the spring. Also, I fail to see how they could get more travel with the springs further compressed; the shocks should control compression and rebound, not be hindered by it.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if it is an issue, I would say it's probably the manufacturer. It's also possible that they sent the wrong shocks with the springs, or vice versa. If you are doing this yourself, I would try to start at OEM ride height and slowly go lower until you get to where you want with the springs.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Thanks for your insight.

I wondered about this threaded shock body too, since the ride height is tied to the springs. This was the first time this shop installed this brand (They can't be that different then other brands). but if the shock body is the wrong shock, then they must have been dumbfounded too

But it isn't, the highly rated place just didn't do it correctly. I gave them the instructions too...twice. Here is an excerpt of those:

 
#4 ·
Why would you be hesitant to mention the manufacturer? I have never seen coilovers like that before. They don't look like the right application for our cars. The rear springs are way shorter than they should be, the rear perches are extended much further than normal, both of which would contribute to the shock being extended much further than anticipated.
 
#5 ·
I just got this from the manufacturer (if you search for my posts you can find out the brand):

"As for the spring compression, the ride height is not derived from the spring but the shock length. It just looks like the spring has a little extra preload, not a bad thing - it's just changes the spring rate a little"

It appears that the instructions are the opposite of this. I'll see if I can extend the shock a little more; the shock travel gets reduced, but I need more ride height for my wheels.
 
#6 ·
I'm sorry, but I simply do not believe that what they are saying is correct - but it's possible I don't know as much as I think I do :D

Every rear damper I've seen has nothing in it to stop the travel of the damper besides the bump stop when it is bottomed out (0% travel left). If you put only the dampers on the car with no springs it would go straight to the ground or to the bump stops and stay there. Theoretically if you have an adjustable shock body you could change the ride height of the vehicle in that manner BUT it would be sitting on the bump stops still. The springs are what hold the suspension up, and at rest, they have a certain amount of preload but ultimately the length of that spring in its "at rest" compressed state determines the ride height of the vehicle, and adjusting the spring perches increase/decrease the ride height accordingly. This is how literally every other coilover I'm aware of for our cars works. The only purpose I could think of with an adjustable shock body in this application would be to ensure you have full damper travel regardless of the ride height set by the spring (to a certain extent, that is).
 
#8 · (Edited)
FYI - It’s in plain view on my signature, so I never really hid it. Joke’s on me...

Anyway, got this from a vw/audi shop that came highly recommended on this site.

“Thanks for reaching out. I have experience with the adjustable body coilovers, but it does take some finess to get it perfect. This job is roughly 2-4 hours @$90 to start. It can be more, depending on alignment and if we need a few iterations but if it goes quick we can honor the lower price.”



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#11 ·
On their website it looks like they classify these as for A3 and S3 though, which you'd think accounts for the Haldex, axles, etc. But they don't allow you to specify if FWD or AWD A3 either soooo that seems a bit odd. This seems like a US-based company and since the 8P S3 was never sold in Can/US, I wonder if they just got it wrong and really have springs for the FWD car as mentioned?
 
#12 · (Edited)
These are them:

https://openroadtuning.com/cart.php

A very experienced German only car mechanic that I know and that my friends use, highly recomended these, when I told him I was thinking about going with KW Street Comfort Coilovers.
He was a KW guy before he knew and used ORT on his personal cars. "These are real great quality and they have perfected the Audi/VW setup." I still agree, but need it done right.

The fronts feel great but the rears are the issue. The preload on the rear needs to be set properly. Over-loaded or under-loaded setups will typically ride like crap, but actually it isn't too bad for the moment, it just need to be raised and I want the comfort of knowing they are done right.
 
#14 ·
#16 ·
OP, you need longer and/or higher rate springs. Adjusting the damper body really just changes the amount of travel allowed before the bump stop gets engaged. Maybe start by asking what the default rate and length is that they chose (assuming you did not specify). Send them your pics of the rear perch so they can see the problem that you are running into with your Quattro rear weight.
 
#17 · (Edited)
I have been in contact with them and have sent pics, but have not in the last few days since you guys indicated some possible items to mention., but now I will.

This is the picture on the box:

F=Front?, R=Rear?



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#18 ·
From one of my early emails with ORT:

"The default rates are 500lbs/350lbs. The RS spec setup will offer you a great ride, and it won't be overly firm or jarring. The only upgrades I really recommend are the allen key collars, that's really something worth spending on."
 
#19 · (Edited)
For what it's worth, I would like to say that I have no issue with ORTs products, quality or recommendation to use them; they have responded to every question I asked and worked with the installer on the 2nd goaround of the install. Customer service has been great. He wants to see this right too. In hindsight, I probably didn't ask all the right questions, based on some of your comments (which are appreciated, BTW). I have sent Andrew at ORT a link to the thread to look at it and respond to your comments/questions, if he so choses.

My lesson on this whole thing: The person who buys said coilovers should know a little more about them and the car they are going on, especially how to adjust them.
I've learned alot since the begining of this whole thing, as you can tell; and still learning more everyday.
 
#21 · (Edited)
ORT got back to me, so I will paraphrase:

The shocks are correct, and the springs are correct as well for both FWD and Quattro setup. The difference is weight is minor. I may need another 1-2" of spring to help. Longer springs will change the shock shaft position relative to the overall stroke and will smooth out the ride a bit. The ride is not harsh, but since I know the install isn't correct, I just want it done correctly.

They'd be happy to send 6, 7, or 8 kg springs out.

I ordered the default rate which I thought was 500/350 based on early correspondence with ORT. But it is 500/280. The new springs will be for 335 or 390

5kg = 280lbs/in (current)
6kg = 335lbs
7kg = 390lbs
8kg = 448lbs

The springs are compressed not due to weight but due to bad preload - the installer has overloaded the springs. Basically the shock length is not correctly adjusted to the spring position on the perch.

As far as rear adjustment:

The best way to do the rear would be to take any preload out of the spring, unbolt the shock and thread up or down the lower piece of the shock.

The installation instructions i put up on a previous post are are correct:
The best and simplest method to setting the rear height is to set the spring perch height first and then adjusting the shock height to ensure proper preload is set into the spring.
An alternate method that is also correct: let the spring free hang and set the shock height - then crank the preload into the shock after the shock is mounted into the car.

Regarding the shock:
These shocks have internal bump stops. The purpose of an adjustable shock is to actually control ride height as the spring doesn't actually control any height. Setups where the spring dictates height are like an H&R or KW that have droop style shock internals that have a lot of travel based on overall length of the shock shaft.

Confused? :banghead:
 
#22 ·
ORT got back to me, so I will paraphrase:

The shocks are correct, and the springs are correct as well for both FWD and Quattro setup. The difference is weight is minor. I may need another 1-2" of spring to help. Longer springs will change the shock shaft position relative to the overall stroke and will smooth out the ride a bit. The ride is not harsh, but since I know the install isn't correct, I just want it done correctly.

They'd be happy to send 6, 7, or 8 kg springs out.
I would go with the highest they'll send (in this case 8kg). Most of us running coilovers have found that higher rates in the rear tend to make for a better / smoother ride and compliment the car well. For instance, I'm running 330 in the front and 400 in the rear. (That's lbs).

I ordered the default rate which I thought was 500/350 based on early correspondence with ORT. But it is 500/280. The new springs will be for 335 or 390

5kg = 280lbs/in (current)
6kg = 335lbs
7kg = 390lbs
8kg = 448lbs

The springs are compressed not due to weight but due to bad preload - the installer has overloaded the springs. Basically the shock length is not correctly adjusted to the spring position on the perch.

As far as rear adjustment:

The best way to do the rear would be to take any preload out of the spring, unbolt the shock and thread up or down the lower piece of the shock.
To me, it sounds like they are having the shock do all the work (ride height and control travel through compression / rebound) while the springs are just holding the car off the perch.


The installation instructions i put up on a previous post are are correct:
The best and simplest method to setting the rear height is to set the spring perch height first and then adjusting the shock height to ensure proper preload is set into the spring.
An alternate method that is also correct: let the spring free hang and set the shock height - then crank the preload into the shock after the shock is mounted into the car.

Regarding the shock:
These shocks have internal bump stops. The purpose of an adjustable shock is to actually control ride height as the spring doesn't actually control any height. Setups where the spring dictates height are like an H&R or KW that have droop style shock internals that have a lot of travel based on overall length of the shock shaft.

Pretty much all coilovers made for these cars have internal bumpstops. Whats confusing to me is when I look at ORT's website, they list the same part number for Mk7 (MQB) chassis cars. The difference between Mk 5 / Mk 6 based cars (which is what ours are) is very minimal and most parts are interchangeable. This is not the case when going from a mk5 /6 chassis to MQB based cars.

Confused? :banghead:
Yes. They reinvented the wheel (er... coilover) design for these cars, but I can't see or understand a good reason based on the information available.
 
This post has been deleted
#25 ·
Some positives today:
I removed cowl, used my dremel with metal cutting blade and made the strut openings larger to get better access to the camber plates. I also made holes on the cowl to access camber and damping knobs. At the cuts, I painted the steel as a preventative measure for rusting.




I also raised the fronts a 1/4 just as a test. Super easy.



I may even tackle the rears now....


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#28 ·
I hear ya.

ORT is sending 7kg (390lbs) springs that are also 10" long, vs the 5kg, 8.5" springs that they gave me.

FYI, the stock rear springs are 13" long, I don't know the spring rate on those.
 
#30 · (Edited)
Thanks for your comments. I certainly have thought what could’ve been with a different non threaded shock set up, but it is what it is and I’m going to make it work, as they actually ride pretty nice.

A closer look on the perch this past weekend, shows that I have over 3/4 inch of threads left, before I would consider it dangerous or not safe. Early on in the thread, I thought it was maxed out, but its not.




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#31 ·
I find the adjustable shock in the rear clever - it should, in theory, allow the shock travel to be matched to the ride height, so if you go low you don't lose shock travel and bottom out. Like others have mentioned, you set the ride height via the spring perch adjustment. My guess is you use the adjustable shock mechanism so that at full droop the bump stop in the shock sets the preload to keep the spring seated on the perch. With this, you probably end up with the right amount of travel once you're on the ground, and things don't come unseated if you go all dukes of hazard and get some air. Remember that at normal ride height there should be enough shock travel so that the wheel can move both up *and* down. You just need to make sure that at full droop the rear spring is still firmly seated on the perch.
 
#32 ·
Shocks can only have so much travel. The rear are not adjustable in the way you think, they're threaded for perches when used in the front. Height adjustability in the rear is set the same way as the front the difference is they're shocks and not struts so the springs don't go over the shocks.
 
#33 ·
Update:

Replacement springs have finally shipped! (The delay was caused in ORT moving locations, I think from TN to FLA)

They are 260mm (10.25") which is 50mm (2") longer than what I have, which should alleviate the issues I'm having. They were unable to get a 7k in that length, so they went to 8k. They felt it was better than going down to 6k spring rates.

Won't be able to install for a couple of weeks...going on vacation...Man, I really want to get these installed and be a happy camper!
 
#34 · (Edited)
Look like my replacement/alternate springs came from BC Racing:



The springs compared to stock (stock on right):



I'll get a picture with all three when I take the others off.

Thanks,

Chris



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#35 ·
The three springs:





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#38 ·
It's interesting to me that the first set of springs they sent you appear to be progressive rate springs while the second set appears to be linear. This should also help some with your ride height as progressive rate springs tend to be softer at first and then get stiffer as they compress, whereas linear (as the name implies) retain roughly the same rate throughout their compression.
 
#39 ·
It does look like a progressive spring but Eibach makes linear rate barrel springs that are designed to reduce the possibility of binding and it looks like it could be one of those as well. You made me curious but couldn't find it online based on the ID number printed on the spring slc_009_210050
 
#37 · (Edited)
Hopefully they won't be too long now, at that spring rate! I ended up with 8" x 400 lb/in. That's 7 kg/mm. Sorry I didn't think to offer this info up earlier. I had to go back and look it up since it was years ago...

So they sent you 10" x 450 lb/in. I guess you can always preload them with your adjustable shock bodies to compress them...

Here is my thread on suspension: https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?5812071-Ohlins-suspension

Pic of spring showing that it is near full length as far as preload:



Ride height with my winter wheels still on:

 
#40 · (Edited)
You guys are gonna hate me...

While installing the new springs I felt that they weren’t seating right, since they had flat bottoms and the others had the round bottoms that seated properly on the bottom perch nice and snug with the stop so they were orientated properly. Also, while installing the new springs, I did not want to mess with additional adjustments to get the ride height right after, which I knew I would have to do. Lazy, maybe, but I felt like I was getting to my wits end with this.

So I took a closer look at the adjustment perch and saw that I had about an 1 1/4” of threads from the top of the adjustment collar to the end of the perch where it was currently set with the original 5kg springs. All I felt I needed was another 3/4” of ride height. So I turned the collar another 3/4”. The locking collar still had 1/2” of threads left securing it to the perch, so I felt it was safely maxed out. I wasn’t going any further.

So I put everything back together with the 5kg springs and got the ride height I desired. I also extended the shock appropriately.

Before putting the wheels on, I removed the “dreaded” screws on the front and rear where I had signs of rubbing previously. I also adjusted the damping in the rears another 2 clicks to make it “stiffer”.

The screws:



I now have almost no rubbing, except on real large variations in the road. I can deal with that. I can dremel the rubbing areas further if I choose, to see if that completely eliminates it.

In hindsight, one of the main issues of this whole thing is that ECS did not indicate any fitment issues (rubbing) with the et42 offset, when I placed my order for the wheels which were a “perfect” fit according to the website. IMO, they should have indicated a type of disclaimer about that.

Here it is:



Front wheel:





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#43 ·
Thanks!


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