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    1. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 08:38 PM #126
      Quote Originally Posted by Air and water do mix View Post
      I've noticed that Japanese cars tune the first 1/3 accelerator pedal to be more aggressive, as it makes it feel more powerful. I know they were so equipped in the 1980s, but I'm not sure if that goes back further or not. They used to use cams on the throttle body to change it as it went through its range, but now it's all software. I've gotten so used to it that sometimes when I drive other cars I have to think about it. Must. Mash. Pedal.
      This is so true!

      Hyundai/Kia does it too. I had a Kia Optima as a rental during my vacation, very peppy when coming from a stop, but gotta step on the accelerator deep to accelerate on highway.
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    3. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 08:45 PM #127
      Quote Originally Posted by chois View Post
      I'm not a fan, but since it gets a "free" bit of credit on the CAFE calculation, look for it to continue proliferating.
      IF I were a 2 year lease kind of guy I might not mind it, but since I'm more of a 200k + mile guy, it just makes me think about the additional maintenance costs that I would see around 100-125k miles.
      I’m not a fan of the current president, but hopefully his EPA gets rid of CAFE or at least loosens it.

      Same here, I like to use my cars until they die on me. The whole start/stop is gonna kill reliability.

      “oH bUt ThEy TeStEd Up To 500k CyClEs” yes but you can never replicate 10-15 years of wear and tear in continuous laboratory environments. This cycle testing will never come close to the real life beating most cars will take over their lifetime.
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      07-11-2019 08:49 PM #128
      Start/Stop on EV = yes, start/stop on ICE = NO.
      Lease car with S/S = yes, own car with S/S = no.

      A car without S/S only use the starter ONE time for a trip.
      A car with S/S use the starter "X" for a same trip.
      Are you telling me starter in car with S/S are X times more reliable than starter in car without S/S.
      “I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack

    5. Senior Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 09:00 PM #129
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      I’m not a fan of the current president, but hopefully his EPA gets rid of CAFE or at least loosens it.

      Same here, I like to use my cars until they die on me. The whole start/stop is gonna kill reliability.

      “oH bUt ThEy TeStEd Up To 500k CyClEs” yes but you can never replicate 10-15 years of wear and tear in continuous laboratory environments. This cycle testing will never come close to the real life beating most cars will take over their lifetime.
      Modern cars are already deactivating cylinders while driving or cutting fuel while coasting to a stop. Aside from replacing a starter every 150K or so what kind of damage are these start stop systems causing...

    6. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 09:15 PM #130
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Modern cars are already deactivating cylinders while driving or cutting fuel while coasting to a stop. Aside from replacing a starter every 150K or so what kind of damage are these start stop systems causing...
      150k? Maybe in like the middle of nowhere in North Dakota.

      But in dense cities like NYC or even most NJ cities, I'd give it 100k miles... and starters/labor can be somewhat steep I am sure most people won't be happy about that.

      I've had 3 cars over 150k and never had starter issues. My wife's Elantra is at 176k and not a single check engine light and never had warranty work done. Only routine maintenance and replacing worn parts. Still gets excellent MPGs for its age.

      I just think these strict CAFE type of regulations will cause more problems than they solve.

      Think about it this way: adding all this tech will make cars more unreliable, so that means consumers will be forced to get new cars more often. That's more raw materials, more mining (which causes deforestation), more transportation of the raw materials, more factory processes, more energy to make the parts, more fossil fuels to power factories, more transportation for the finished product, etc. This is not environmentally friendly at all. The larger the volume of production, the worse it is for the environment. A car that can last 250k miles is more environmentally than having a more efficient car that will die much sooner and just keep replacing with new. Just give this a thought.
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    7. Senior Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 09:45 PM #131
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      150k? Maybe in like the middle of nowhere in North Dakota.

      But in dense cities like NYC or even most NJ cities, I'd give it 100k miles... and starters/labor can be somewhat steep I am sure most people won't be happy about that.

      I've had 3 cars over 150k and never had starter issues. My wife's Elantra is at 176k and not a single check engine light and never had warranty work done. Only routine maintenance and replacing worn parts. Still gets excellent MPGs for its age.

      I just think these strict CAFE type of regulations will cause more problems than they solve.

      Think about it this way: adding all this tech will make cars more unreliable, so that means consumers will be forced to get new cars more often. That's more raw materials, more mining (which causes deforestation), more transportation of the raw materials, more factory processes, more energy to make the parts, more fossil fuels to power factories, more transportation for the finished product, etc. This is not environmentally friendly at all. The larger the volume of production, the worse it is for the environment. A car that can last 250k miles is more environmentally than having a more efficient car that will die much sooner and just keep replacing with new. Just give this a thought.
      Using that line of logic we should all be driving the same car until it becomes virtually impossible to fix, swap, or update components. Electronic ignition is inherently less reliable, uses more resources, and will eventually fail. We should all be hand cranking our cars to start them. Make automobiles great again.

    8. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 09:48 PM #132
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Using that line of logic we should all be driving the same car until it becomes virtually impossible to fix, swap, or update components. Electronic ignition is inherently less reliable, uses more resources, and will eventually fail. We should all be hand cranking our cars to start them. Make automobiles great again.
      All I’m saying all this tech is supposed to be “environmentally friendly” when in reality it will just be worse.
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    9. 07-11-2019 09:54 PM #133
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      All I’m saying all this tech is supposed to be “environmentally friendly” when in reality it will just be worse.
      Any proof that start-stop systems are more unreliable to the point that people will junk them? You do realize that with all the tech in cars they are lasting longer right?

      I've used it on various cars... it can be OK. You learn how to prime it.

    10. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 10:01 PM #134
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      Any proof that start-stop systems are more unreliable to the point that people will junk them?

      I've used it on various cars... it can be OK. You learn how to prime it.
      Again, I’m just speculating at this point. Only time will tell how they will turn out, I just don’t see how these new technologies will be reliable in the long run.

      I think instead of over-complicating engines, they should focus on electric cars or at least electric cars with gas or diesel range extenders.
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    11. 07-11-2019 11:37 PM #135
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      150k? Maybe in like the middle of nowhere in North Dakota.

      But in dense cities like NYC or even most NJ cities, I'd give it 100k miles... and starters/labor can be somewhat steep I am sure most people won't be happy about that.

      I've had 3 cars over 150k and never had starter issues. My wife's Elantra is at 176k and not a single check engine light and never had warranty work done. Only routine maintenance and replacing worn parts. Still gets excellent MPGs for its age.

      I just think these strict CAFE type of regulations will cause more problems than they solve.

      Think about it this way: adding all this tech will make cars more unreliable, so that means consumers will be forced to get new cars more often. That's more raw materials, more mining (which causes deforestation), more transportation of the raw materials, more factory processes, more energy to make the parts, more fossil fuels to power factories, more transportation for the finished product, etc. This is not environmentally friendly at all. The larger the volume of production, the worse it is for the environment. A car that can last 250k miles is more environmentally than having a more efficient car that will die much sooner and just keep replacing with new. Just give this a thought.
      :thum bup:: thumbup::thumb up::t humbup::thumbu p::th umbup::thumbup :


    12. Banned NeverEnoughCars's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 06:51 AM #136
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Again, I’m just speculating at this point.
      So talking out of your ass and refusing to do any research?
      I hope you do not vote...

    13. 07-12-2019 07:14 AM #137
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Again, I’m just speculating at this point. Only time will tell how they will turn out, I just don’t see how these new technologies will be reliable in the long run.

      I think instead of over-complicating engines, they should focus on electric cars or at least electric cars with gas or diesel range extenders.
      At some point you have to defer to experience and logic. For example you can't complain about complexity... then demand the industry shift to making hybrids, which is as complicated as it gets. Hybrids have been in play for nearly 25 years.... I have never seen any issues with the ICE starters. Cars with start-stop systems always have heavier duty starters than normal. Your whole stance makes no sense

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      07-12-2019 07:35 AM #138
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Modern cars are already deactivating cylinders while driving or cutting fuel while coasting to a stop. Aside from replacing a starter every 150K or so what kind of damage are these start stop systems causing...
      Which isn't always a good thing. Ask a lot of Honda V6 owners, myself included.

    15. Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      07-12-2019 08:01 AM #139
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Again, I’m just speculating at this point. Only time will tell how they will turn out, I just don’t see how these new technologies will be reliable in the long run.

      I think instead of over-complicating engines, they should focus on electric cars or at least electric cars with gas or diesel range extenders.
      This has been on mainstream cars for what, 5 years? More?

      My first experience with it was a ~2915 Malibu rental. I’m sure that thing’s got 150k on it now, wherever it is. It’s been long enough.

    16. Member fireside's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 08:19 AM #140
      Quote Originally Posted by 2.0T_Convert View Post
      Using that line of logic we should all be driving the same car until it becomes virtually impossible to fix, swap, or update components. Electronic ignition is inherently less reliable, uses more resources, and will eventually fail. We should all be hand cranking our cars to start them. Make automobiles great again.
      No, it's called striking a balance. "using that logic," we should be able to find a way to increase efficiency without affecting longevity. You are forgetting there is a large portion of the population that just throws things away because they stop working. I've seen people trade in 2-3 year old vehicles because they need tires.

    17. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 08:48 AM #141
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      At some point you have to defer to experience and logic. For example you can't complain about complexity... then demand the industry shift to making hybrids, which is as complicated as it gets. Hybrids have been in play for nearly 25 years.... I have never seen any issues with the ICE starters. Cars with start-stop systems always have heavier duty starters than normal. Your whole stance makes no sense
      I'm not a fan of hybrids. What I meant by range extenders is that they have electric drive and a IC engine that can recharge the battery, no connections to the drivetrain whatsoever. Yes the Volt exists, but for some reason they didn't do well.
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    18. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 08:51 AM #142
      Quote Originally Posted by NeverEnoughCars View Post
      So talking out of your ass and refusing to do any research?
      I hope you do not vote...
      I have researched... still not convinced.
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    19. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 08:51 AM #143
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      No, it's called striking a balance. "using that logic," we should be able to find a way to increase efficiency without affecting longevity. You are forgetting there is a large portion of the population that just throws things away because they stop working. I've seen people trade in 2-3 year old vehicles because they need tires.
      Exactly why so many people lease instead of buying.
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      07-12-2019 08:59 AM #144
      Quote Originally Posted by fireside View Post
      No, it's called striking a balance. "using that logic," we should be able to find a way to increase efficiency without affecting longevity.
      Where is the evidence that longevity is impacted?

      These are not standard starters.. that is of course ignoring that starters in general have improved and are not really a wear item like they used to be. ( I own a shop that's never replaced a starter)

      Since stop start systems are operating on already warmed up engines they operate for much shorter times than intial startup up starters and they operate at significantly lower rpms. There is programming that also allows the engines to crank with less load using adjustable cam overlap and inject fuel only when it knows it will fire in certain cars as well.. this all helps to reduce stress on the restart.

      So while it might operate 30 times a day vs 2 times a day they are operating under much different conditions than what we think of normal starters doing.

    21. Geriatric Member Air and water do mix's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 09:32 AM #145
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Again, I’m just speculating at this point. Only time will tell how they will turn out, I just don’t see how these new technologies will be reliable in the long run.

      I think instead of over-complicating engines, they should focus on electric cars or at least electric cars with gas or diesel range extenders.
      The same was said about fuel injection and variable valve timing. Sure, problems arise, but cars have gotten more and more reliable over the decades, not less. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Where is the evidence that longevity is impacted?

      These are not standard starters.. that is of course ignoring that starters in general have improved and are not really a wear item like they used to be. ( I own a shop that's never replaced a starter)

      Since stop start systems are operating on already warmed up engines they operate for much shorter times than intial startup up starters and they operate at significantly lower rpms. There is programming that also allows the engines to crank with less load using adjustable cam overlap and inject fuel only when it knows it will fire in certain cars as well.. this all helps to reduce stress on the restart.

      So while it might operate 30 times a day vs 2 times a day they are operating under much different conditions than what we think of normal starters doing.
      Thanks for that. This all makes sense. I mean I knew the engines were warm and the starters and batteries were built for it, but hadn't thought about VVT and whatnot making it easier.
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    22. Senior Member LT1M21Stingray's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 09:48 AM #146
      drivetribe.com/reviewed-stop-start

      Quote Originally Posted by JamesMay
      A lot of you youngsters these days seem to have quite nice cars. Fairly new ones. But it wasn’t like that when I was a lad. We drove old ****, and it often didn’t work.

      If a car is running, then that, according to something deeply ingrained in my driving conscience, is a bonus. It follows, therefore, that when it stops running at a set of traffic lights, it’s broken. That’s how it was for so many years.

      Look; stop-start is a perfectly reasonable idea. As I’ve said before on this tribe, the internal combustion engine has to idle before it can do anything useful, unlike an electric motor or a steam engine. But it need only start idling in the instant before you call on it. If you’re stationary, it can be turned off.

      It’s not even a new idea. Twenty five years ago, long before electronic systems took over the job, I noticed that the taxi drivers of Calcutta would turn their engines off at traffic lights. Made sense; it saved a bit of fuel, and the Hindustan Ambassador was designed by Richard Trevithick, and made a bit of a stink. But it did seem a bit ill-advised to a man still traumatised by a 130,000-mile and unserviced Vauxhall.

      Even now I sense a tiny kernel of panic forming in my bowels whenever the car turns itself off at a junction. It’s like a very mild form of shell shock; a trigger for the memory of some horror in a previous life. Who’s to say it will start again, when for so many decades it almost certainly wouldn’t?

      But there’s something else. I was driving a Land Rover Discovery, with the stop-start turned on. It stopped when I pulled up at a pedestrian crossing, and because I was unconsciously applying a tiny force to the steering wheel, I felt the power steering fade away and the wheel become inert. I felt a car die. It was like a beloved pet expiring in my arms, and it was horrible, and I hated it.

      That’s why every car I’ve ever driven with stop-start has a button that allows you to switch the system out. There’s no reason to have this that I can think of, except that it’s there for my generation. But it will pass away, like the idea of alms houses. And then we will be at peace.
      This.
      Quote Originally Posted by Mk1Madness
      Back when making your car faster and better handling was the big thing.
      Quote Originally Posted by Tavarish
      The car's best safety feature includes ejecting you in the moment of impact and wishing you the best of luck.
      Buy my couch!

    23. Member TheDeckMan's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 11:18 AM #147
      Start stop would left this guy high and dry.

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      07-12-2019 11:28 AM #148
      Quote Originally Posted by TheDeckMan View Post
      Start stop would left this guy high and dry.

      I mean not stopping in the shoulder would have also been a way to avoid being hit. Based on distance to the car in front of him there was no need for him to have pulled into the shoulder. I realize people do this all the time, but the lesson is don't pulling into the shoulder for no reason not this is why stop start is bad.

      I also wouldn't be so sure about that actually based on the ones I've experienced.

      He barely came to a complete stop and was already off the brake for a bit before he actually attempted to move so there is a good chance the system would never have kicked in, there is usually a delay because of stops exactly like this.

    25. Member IJM's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 12:28 PM #149
      I've only driven one manual car with stop-start, which was a Fiat 500 in Italy back in 2011. As someone else mentioned, it works better in a manual car since it fires up as soon as you push in the clutch and won't cut off at a light unless you let out the clutch in neutral. I fooled around with it a bit and found I could push in the clutch, hit the gas, and let out the clutch all as fast as possible, and the engine would behave just like it had been running with not delay in launching the car (aside from the 68 hp ).
      Last edited by IJM; 07-12-2019 at 12:34 PM.

    26. Geriatric Member ValveCoverGasket's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 12:36 PM #150
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      All I’m saying all this tech is supposed to be “environmentally friendly” when in reality it will just be worse.
      based on?....


      you do have engineer in your username though, so its hard to argue with that

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