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    1. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 04:53 PM #76
      Quote Originally Posted by Icantdrive65 View Post
      My wife's Atlas has it. I turn it on and off while I'm driving, anticipating when I will be idling for a while or if I will I need to accelerate quickly. If you use it like that, it is not annoying. I have always driven manual transmission cars, so operating a push-button as needed becomes intuitive.

      I was skeptical about the system until I watched this video. It breaks down real-world gas consumption with and without the system. If you are at all concerned about the subject, spend the 7 minutes watching the Engineering Explained video.
      Gas consumption isn't my concern. My concern is the mechanical parts. I am sure it does save some fuel, but at what cost?

      Think about it this way. An engineer's job is to think of all things that could possibly go wrong and which is why we test and do math to come up with a solution. Well, here's a good example of why I am concerned about the engineering behind the start/stop components. My GTI has 34k miles. I had the water pump break on me causing my engine to leak coolant. Me, as an engineer, I would try to make sure that the water pump I'm designing can withstand the pressure, heat, cycles, and all other physical forces that heated coolant will create. Seems to me like the engineers at VW didn't do too well with the calculations/design for the water pump because the cracked water pump has happened quite a few times, although not enough to make it a recall. You'd think they would have gotten water pumps 100% correct since they are a technology that has been used for 50 years or so. But that's not the case. There's been other recalls for other parts in cars and such because of mistakes that most of the time can be traced to either engineering or manufacturing.

      Also, as an amateur house mechanic, I have seen low quality OEM components in modern cars that are inferior in quality than comparable parts from older cars that maybe more heavy duty. Just like interiors, they've gotten extremely cheap in the last decade.

      So with all the recalls and trivial problems, it tells us not everything is 100%, so is start/stop perfect? On paper, yes. Real world, not sure yet we gotta wait and see how long these engines will last. As I said before, starting a car requires a hell of a lot more than just a starter, which makes me wonder how reliable it will be 5-10 years later when cars have over 100k miles.
      2016 GTI S 6MT 2door

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      12-25-2018 05:41 PM #77
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Gas consumption isn't my concern. My concern is the mechanical parts. I am sure it does save some fuel, but at what cost?

      Think about it this way. An engineer's job is to think of all things that could possibly go wrong and which is why we test and do math to come up with a solution. Well, here's a good example of why I am concerned about the engineering behind the start/stop components. My GTI has 34k miles. I had the water pump break on me causing my engine to leak coolant. Me, as an engineer, I would try to make sure that the water pump I'm designing can withstand the pressure, heat, cycles, and all other physical forces that heated coolant will create. Seems to me like the engineers at VW didn't do too well with the calculations/design for the water pump because the cracked water pump has happened quite a few times, although not enough to make it a recall. You'd think they would have gotten water pumps 100% correct since they are a technology that has been used for 50 years or so. But that's not the case. There's been other recalls for other parts in cars and such because of mistakes that most of the time can be traced to either engineering or manufacturing.

      Also, as an amateur house mechanic, I have seen low quality OEM components in modern cars that are inferior in quality than comparable parts from older cars that maybe more heavy duty. Just like interiors, they've gotten extremely cheap in the last decade.

      So with all the recalls and trivial problems, it tells us not everything is 100%, so is start/stop perfect? On paper, yes. Real world, not sure yet we gotta wait and see how long these engines will last. As I said before, starting a car requires a hell of a lot more than just a starter, which makes me wonder how reliable it will be 5-10 years later when cars have over 100k miles.
      You have to think about it on a bell curve.

      If they make 10,000 water pumps and they expect them to last at least 5 years but 750 last less than 1 year, is that poor engineering? Conversely, they can surely make a water pump that would last 25 years, but why would they and at what cost? Now multiply those incremental costs over the the 1000s of similar units that run through a supply chain, what does that do to the price of entry?

      These systems have been in use for the better part of a decade. Now run outside and tell those kids to get off your lawn or you’ll call the police from your corded phone with a rotary dial.


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    4. Member Icantdrive65's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 05:43 PM #78
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Not only does it annoy me, but these things are so gimmicky. No effing way it saves gas. Maybe 1%? Pshh sure, "huge savings". I can say with certainty, most cars with the start/stop will have serious issues at 100k miles. No way these starters, batteries, fuel pumps, etc can handle hundreds of thousands of continuous cycles. Something will crap out.
      Fuel consumption is the reason this system exists.

      I have the same concerns regarding reliability. I'm hoping the system is engineered well. The trouble with engineering is that reliability often takes a back seat to cost-cutting. Manufacturers also play the numbers game. I have had one water pump fail prematurely on one of my cars in 26 years of driving, most of that in VWs. If most of them last long enough that the customer doesn't complain too much when it needs to be replaced, the balance works out.

      I make aftermarket parts for Vanagons. Every part I design and manufacture is overbuilt. I have still had some failures over the years. Most of the parts will outlast the van though. I even have people replacing some of my parts because the rubber fuel lines that connect my aluminum fittings fail over time. I don't know why they don't just replace the rubber.
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    5. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 06:04 PM #79
      Quote Originally Posted by child_in_time View Post
      Automakers get incentives (i said $$, ok) from EPA for having this tech in their cars. Last time I checked, EPA was a government agency...
      You said two things that were false/misleading:
      1) The government gives money to OEMs for implementing start/stop (they don't give money; they give CAFE credits. In fact the EPA gives credits for all sorts of Fuel Saving Technologies).
      2) The systems have "very minute" real world benefits (in fact the real world benefits are much larger than what you measure in the EPA fuel economy trace. The reason is because the EPA FTP has very short idle times, which is why the EPA offered CAFE credits as an incentive for OEMs to implement start/stop. See elsewhere in this thread for real world fuel economy benefits).

      No one disputes the EPA is a government entity... So not sure why you felt the need to add that distraction?

      FWiW, I had a Chevy Malibu rental with start/stop and I thought it made "creeping" in drive very difficult, especially in parking situations. If you don't like start/stop, just say that. But don't create false and misleading statements to justify your opinions.
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 12-25-2018 at 08:36 PM.
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    6. Member Maximilium's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 06:23 PM #80
      I don't hate it... I just don't love it.


      Auto Disable engine stop-start system

    7. Senior Member DonL's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 08:14 PM #81
      It seems like a lot of the perceived benefits are varied and highly dependent on user driving routes or circumstances. Somebody with a long rural freeway commute with a workplace right off the freeway won't see near the benefit of somebody who commutes in heavy traffic in larger cities.

      Quote Originally Posted by Form Ocean View Post
      At least put the disable switch in a sensible location.

      What vehicle is that? That looks handy as all get-out.


      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I guess it depends on your driving situations.
      My driving is mostly short in town or long distance commute (highway).
      The redlights here are quick, so if the engine stops.. it's only off for like 10-20 seconds.
      Exactly how much fuel does 20 seconds of idling use?
      Seems stupid for my driving cycle.
      Somewhat in the same boat. Personally, I'm not a fan. The rental I had was shaky, and the timing/sensitivity seemed to be suspect, as the car seemed "dead" a couple of times when I came up to corners to turn right, and the system shut down when I could have taken advantage of a gap in traffic.

      (I'm also suspect to the durability/longevity of the system components, but I guess fine tuning of the systems and watching component durability over time would alleviate some of those concerns.)

      A clincher for me is that on my commute, I can only see two locations/opportunities for the system to do its thing. The rest of the time would be completely inconsequential. Maybe that means that I'd rarely see the system provide any benefit. Or maybe the system is meaningless in my circumstances.

      The jury is still out for me. Maybe in time I'll be convinced, but I'm not yet. My wife is looking at new vehicles soon, and one of her criteria is that the system be capable of being disabled if she wishes. She's going to have to do some homework, as some vehicles can't be disabled. Otherwise, if there's a button for those time she doesn't want it, she won't much care in the long run as long as nothing breaks down prematurely.
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    8. Senior Member DonL's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 08:25 PM #82
      OTOH, it seems like leaving roof racks on vehicles when not needed wastes more fuel than what's recouped having a stop-start system. Maybe if people weren't lazy or didn't feel some need to keep posing with outdoorsy stuff on their vehicles, they'd see enough fuel savings to not need stop-start to save a couple bucks' worth of gas here and there. I didn't know that some racks and equipment could make such a significant difference. The key is taking it off when not needed. I see empty racks on vehicles pretty much every day. Yeah, it can be a hassle, but if you only bicycle or kayak once a month and leave everything on the car the whole time, that stop-start may still be leaving you in a deficit.

      https://www.menshealth.com/technolog...t-gas-mileage/

      https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2016/04/2...-fuel-economy/

      https://www.automobilemag.com/news/s...-fuel-economy/
      Last edited by DonL; 12-25-2018 at 08:28 PM.
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    9. Senior Member
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      12-25-2018 08:54 PM #83
      Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
      OTOH, it seems like leaving roof racks on vehicles when not needed wastes more fuel than what's recouped having a stop-start system.
      Who cares and what does that have to do with anything? Driving with 4 people in the car probably wastes more fuel than what is recouped by having a start stop system. Just because there are possibly things that hurt fuel economy doesn't mean there is any reason to compare them to start stop.

      I noticed about a 10% drop in fuel economy on my 2012 TDI sportwagen, still getting better than claimed, with my old style square bar Thule rack on and older medium profile bike mounts. I bet that 80s roof rack did better than that horrendous setup on the buick in that one link.

      I noticed an immeasurable drop on my 2015 TDI sportwagen, also still got better than claimed, with my new style thule aero blade bars and low profile bike mounts.

      My allroad has only ever had the rack on while i've owned it and it technically also does better than claimed fuel economy.. but I don't have allroad gearing There is no combo of my engine/trans/avant to compare to those with standard gearing but if you avg some of the sedan and avant numbers out, I can still beat that even with a bike on the roof!



      not all racks are as bad as those tests are claiming and they have noting to do with start stop...



      ETA : I have no issue with the idea of start-stop.. I have been annoyed by some systems (Ford escape rental) and seems to work seemlessly in others (Moms V90CC)
      Last edited by chris86vw; 12-25-2018 at 08:59 PM.

    10. Senior Member 2.0T_Convert's Avatar
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      12-25-2018 09:17 PM #84
      Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
      What vehicle is that? That looks handy as all get-out.
      Based on button font and plastics I'm guessing BMW (F30)?

    11. Member Engineer90's Avatar
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      12-26-2018 02:47 PM #85
      Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
      OTOH, it seems like leaving roof racks on vehicles when not needed wastes more fuel than what's recouped having a stop-start system.
      Extremely true. I took mine off my wife's car and we're just gonna get a hitch for the bikes.

      You can feel the drag from the roof racks at highways speeds.
      2016 GTI S 6MT 2door

    12. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 07:08 AM #86
      The F150 S/S system is very aggressive.
      Stop.. engine stops.
      Move five feet.. stop, engine stops.
      There is no way to get around it being annoying.

      BIG QUESTION.
      With turbo engines, we have always been told to keep off the boost for the last few minutes to let the turbo cool down since once turned off- the cooling fluid (oil/coolant) stops circulating which can lead to oil cooking in the turbo.
      This is what "turbo timers" were for.
      But now we have turbo vehicles where you floor it, slam on the brakes to stop and the engine shuts off.
      What's the word on this?

    13. Member fireside's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 07:24 AM #87
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      The F150 S/S system is very aggressive.
      Stop.. engine stops.
      Move five feet.. stop, engine stops.
      There is no way to get around it being annoying.

      BIG QUESTION.
      With turbo engines, we have always been told to keep off the boost for the last few minutes to let the turbo cool down since once turned off- the cooling fluid (oil/coolant) stops circulating which can lead to oil cooking in the turbo.
      This is what "turbo timers" were for.
      But now we have turbo vehicles where you floor it, slam on the brakes to stop and the engine shuts off.
      What's the word on this?
      Just a shot in the dark but I'd imagine vehicles with stop/start systems have an supplementary/auxiliary electric water pump to keep warm coolant flowing so the heat remains effective for the duration of the average "stop" period during the winter months - at least on higher end/more expensive vehicles. This is just speculation.

    14. Member TangoRed's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 08:05 AM #88
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      The F150 S/S system is very aggressive.
      Stop.. engine stops.
      Move five feet.. stop, engine stops.
      There is no way to get around it being annoying.

      BIG QUESTION.
      With turbo engines, we have always been told to keep off the boost for the last few minutes to let the turbo cool down since once turned off- the cooling fluid (oil/coolant) stops circulating which can lead to oil cooking in the turbo.
      This is what "turbo timers" were for.
      But now we have turbo vehicles where you floor it, slam on the brakes to stop and the engine shuts off.
      What's the word on this?
      Turbo technology has progressed to a point where turbo timers are unnecessary. There’s provisions in place to handle cooling. Most if not all cars have auxiliary water pumps for this.

      Anyways, you can read up more on this via the last thread we had on stop/start and turbos: https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...#post111331609
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      And on the tenth day of the two thousand fifteenth year, TCL finds out about rich people.

    15. Member davewg's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 08:40 AM #89
      Quote Originally Posted by Engineer90 View Post
      Ah ok so that answers it. Didn't know GTIs and Golf Rs had a feature to turn it off.

      On my GTI, the engine sputters a little when I'm on idle. I'm guess less fuel/air since it's idling, but doesn't turn off at all.
      Yeah, my '18 R has the stop/start system (with a button to turn it off).

      It's off by default in sport or race mode, but since I didn't love how it worked I just used VCDS and coded it off.

      Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
      OTOH, it seems like leaving roof racks on vehicles when not needed wastes more fuel than what's recouped having a stop-start system.
      This reminds me that I need to get the roof rack for the bikes off my wife's Durango.
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    16. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 09:43 AM #90
      Quote Originally Posted by TangoRed View Post
      Turbo technology has progressed to a point where turbo timers are unnecessary. There’s provisions in place to handle cooling. Most if not all cars have auxiliary water pumps for this.

      Anyways, you can read up more on this via the last thread we had on stop/start and turbos: https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthre...#post111331609
      Auxiliary water pump.
      You mean electric water pump without a redundancy plan when it fails suddenly without warning?
      There definitely is a cost (complexity/long term reliability concerns) to all this better mpg tech.
      So there are at least SoMe negatives.

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      12-27-2018 09:57 AM #91
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Auxiliary water pump.
      You mean electric water pump without a redundancy plan when it fails suddenly without warning?
      There definitely is a cost (complexity/long term reliability concerns) to all this better mpg tech.
      So there are at least SoMe negatives.
      Water still gonna water even without a pump and constantly flow hot to cold through the turbo..


      An aux water pump is least significant change to these systems to make oil coking no longer a real concern.

    18. 12-27-2018 10:00 AM #92
      Normally when you are puttering around in traffic, circumstances when stop/start would be most active, engine load is so low that the turbo is not going to see much thermal loading anyhow.

    19. Senior Member DonL's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 05:06 PM #93
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Who cares and what does that have to do with anything? Driving with 4 people in the car probably wastes more fuel than what is recouped by having a start stop system. Just because there are possibly things that hurt fuel economy doesn't mean there is any reason to compare them to start stop.

      I noticed about a 10% drop in fuel economy on my 2012 TDI sportwagen, still getting better than claimed, with my old style square bar Thule rack on and older medium profile bike mounts. I bet that 80s roof rack did better than that horrendous setup on the buick in that one link.

      I noticed an immeasurable drop on my 2015 TDI sportwagen, also still got better than claimed, with my new style thule aero blade bars and low profile bike mounts.

      My allroad has only ever had the rack on while i've owned it and it technically also does better than claimed fuel economy.. but I don't have allroad gearing There is no combo of my engine/trans/avant to compare to those with standard gearing but if you avg some of the sedan and avant numbers out, I can still beat that even with a bike on the roof!



      not all racks are as bad as those tests are claiming and they have noting to do with start stop...
      Geez, you come across like somebody pissed in your Cheerios.

      It's all related to fuel economy, and how all aspects of a vehicle contributes. Stop-start is part of it. Not driving like a moran is another. Not putting monster mudders on your Corolla is another. Roof racks can be a factor. One thing might increase fuel economy and something else decreases it, prompting some to compare relative increases and decreases.

      You missed my general point, but then supported it, junebug. Some people love stop-start for the fuel savings, but leave roof racks on their vehicles when they don't need it, negating the purpose and savings of the stop-start. A lot of people might complain about stop-start and how much it might theoretically "cost" them, fearing the day that replacing a starter can affect their credit score. But they just leave their racks where they are as long as they own their vehicles. No sense to either of those scenarios.
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    20. Member Jimmy Russells's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 05:16 PM #94
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      Normally when you are puttering around in traffic, circumstances when stop/start would be most active, engine load is so low that the turbo is not going to see much thermal loading anyhow.
      Not to mention modern oil can sit at 280°F pretty much forever and not have nearly the same problems older dino oil did at even much lower temps.

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      12-27-2018 05:39 PM #95
      Quote Originally Posted by DonL View Post
      Some people love stop-start for the fuel savings, but leave roof racks on their vehicles when they don't need it, negating the purpose and savings of the stop-start.
      Who are these people? I don't believe you see that many roof racks or that many cars that have start stop let alone this mystical combination of the two that this is remotely relevant to the topic..

      And even then who cares if someone gains 1mpg with the start stop and loses it with their roof rack they use once a month? Mine takes more time to put on and take off and risks damage to the car then is worth losing 1mpg (which I don't) over and it doesn't even have start stop.

      I've seen a roof rack on a hybrid.. OMG!!!! they bought a car that gets better mpg but then had the audacity to put a functional roof rack on it?!??! They should have just bought a damn suv..


      What do roof racks, tires, or even how one drives have to do with start stop?



      PS didn't miss your point, and also didn't post a word meant to disprove it.

    22. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 06:00 PM #96
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      Who are these people? I don't believe you see that many roof racks or that many cars that have start stop let alone this mystical combination of the two that this is remotely relevant to the topic..

      And even then who cares if someone gains 1mpg with the start stop and loses it with their roof rack they use once a month? Mine takes more time to put on and take off and risks damage to the car then is worth losing 1mpg (which I don't) over and it doesn't even have start stop.

      I've seen a roof rack on a hybrid.. OMG!!!! they bought a car that gets better mpg but then had the audacity to put a functional roof rack on it?!??! They should have just bought a damn suv..


      What do roof racks, tires, or even how one drives have to do with start stop?



      PS didn't miss your point, and also didn't post a word meant to disprove it.
      Maybe I took it wrong, but I took DonL's post as satire.
      We have a group saying we all NEED these start/stop systems even if some..most find them very annoying (and have reliability concerns) because idling is wasted fuel.
      Taken to the extreme, that applies to anything avoidable that hurts fuel economy.. like roof racks.
      But now instead of everybody, we are pointing at one group (makes it uncomfortable).

    23. Senior Member
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      12-27-2018 06:15 PM #97
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Maybe I took it wrong, but I took DonL's post as satire.
      And yet you responded to my reply where he clarified he was quite serious... So yeah you took it wrong.


      We have a group saying we all NEED these start/stop systems even if some..
      Who is this group saying this, the EPA? You have a few people here saying they are good, you don't have a single person here saying everyone needs start stop.



      And not sure why I am bothering to respond because my point was what the hell do roof racks have to do with start stop.. and yet now its being discussed

    24. Geriatric Member BRealistic's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 06:24 PM #98
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      And
      Who is this group saying this, the EPA? You have a few people here saying they are good, you don't have a single person here saying everyone needs start stop.
      Well.. maybe it's just me perception from page 2/3.
      Seems to be a few actually poking fun at those that don't like it/trust it.

      And maybe DonL was serious and it not just trolling. (shrug)

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      12-27-2018 06:29 PM #99
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      Well.. maybe it's just me perception from page 2/3.
      Seems to be a few actually poking fun at those that don't like it/trust it.
      Poking fun and people saying everyone needs something are not the same thing at all...




      And maybe DonL was serious and it not just trolling. (shrug)
      you think post 93 trolling?

    26. Member Mr Miyagi's Avatar
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      12-27-2018 06:39 PM #100
      I don't know, but I completely disregard any video that:

      • the title is "The truth about.."
      • Has big red text in the thumbnail
      • has a bald host

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