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a few 16v engine questions

3K views 16 replies 4 participants last post by  Dustinicus 
#1 ·
I have read through the first few pages of the 16v sticky, and was wondering if I could get a bit more clarification without going through the 50+ pages.

I dont see many older vw cars around the junk yards here, and I was wondering if there are any later model parts that I might be able to utilize.

Could a 2000's or later car prove heads and manifolds for my mk3 block for example? Of course I would ultimately buy another engine to build up for this project, just curious if there is anything else viable?

What are the real limitations to keeping with my OBD2 electronics? For example, if i used my stock bottom end (compression ratio, etc... aside) would there be any problems with finding a later 16vtop end and "slapping it on" the OBD2 bottom end?

I wouldnt be totally against using a stand alone if I needed to, and I understand there are other internal engine parts that need sourcing. At this point I am mostly interested in physical fitment, and as I work this through can sort all of the other things out.

I have read numerous threads that people have made asking about "how do I do this?" and i am not exactly asking how to do it as much as what kind of changes may or may not have been that could keepthisfrom working.

thanks
Dustin
 
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#2 ·
What is the exact year and model engine that you are starting with? What chassis is it in?

In general the “16v” heads were 87-92 in the us and went a little longer in Europe. We got “20v” heads by 98 in the Audis and that went until the FSI/TSI direct injection motors in the mid to late 00s (which are also 16v btw...).
 
#3 ·
its a 97 jetta, i have the ABA (a or b? not sure). i kind of gathered that the "16v head" is one off of an older model VW. I was more curious about the later model car engines and their compatibility with parts and such with the engine that is in my car.

I am mostly curious about physical fitment of any parts from newer VW's (like the heads) obviously with a different head I will need different manifolds and such.

Some of what a read about was the current distributor would need to be deleted and some custom type parts built or bought for it because the newer head would have it's own. I imagine this is due to clearance issues with the different head and manifolds etc..

thanks for your reply, I hope I was able to clarify this question some more

thanks
Dustin
 
#4 ·
The newer 20v heads can all be adapted to your block, lots of info on that swap. After that I am not sure and its likely easier to use a whole engine, fueling, etc.

Big question is why do the swap? If its for power one of the turbo engines would be simpler and probably cheaper.
 
#5 ·
I read that there were issues with the oil ports when swapping a 20v head on to the ABA block, (not to mention the utter lack of older VW stuff around here to be had) unless I misread it what I had about the 20v.

A turbo engine is the ultimate iteration that I plan on having in this car, and I thought about just going turbo with the 8v engine, but starting from an engine with twice as many valves gives the potential for more baseline power (in theory; more airflow = more potential power) Plus I am going to buy another engine to go through, rebuild/build up. I can get a short block for $150 and a cylinder head(with cams) for $100, which is decent I think. Manifolds and such will be another expense, but that is of no consequence to me.

I didnt get much time today to do any more reading on newer VW engines and any kind of physical compatibility today(head bolts lining up oil and coolant passages etc..)

But if i can find the right parts to make something that physically fits together and can operate mechanically like an engine should (pistons and valves moving synchronously) then ill just put a megasquirt on it with an EDIS wheel(im sure there are better things) if I have too, to get fuel and spark in this theoretical mix n' match of parts.

I know I didnt mention things like; making sure cam/crank gears line up, accessories, oiling, etc... But with the right amount of sense in the right place, as long as everything aforementioned lines up, I can have things like clearances and spacing sorted out as needed.

Right now I am just doing the research and collecting things I will use like an ABA short block, clutch kit, transmission (to freshen up, but that is a different monster to tackle)

I havent bought anything yet, and unless there is advise on a different engine that will physically bolt into my car, I am thinking that a home brew engine with a homemade stand alone is the direction that I am facing at the moment. Whether I buy a whole turbo engine or just piece it together, I am going to tear it all down and rebuild it before I put it in my car. Besides its winter, and the perfect time to start building an engine to have fun with next summer.

thanks again
Dustin
 
#7 ·
Don't mess with the 20v unless you get a whole long block. We made hybrid 20v using ABA back in the day (I still have a current Long term project I have been working on), for reasons that no longer make much sense. ABAs were a dime a dozen with lower mileage, 20v heads were easier to get, but 1.8t bottom ends were harder to get on the cheap.

All that has changed and complete 1.8t long blocks/swaps can be had for cheap, especially if you plan on refreshing it.

So, you have an ABA OBD2. Normally, an ABA would be great for a hybrid motor (especially an ABF** clone), but the problem with OBD2 (neglecting that it didn't get piston oil squirters or Forged crank like OBD1), is that the stock "castle" pistons will not clear valves on early VW 16v heads. If you had an OBD1 then it would be a no brainer for a budget build and I would suggest getting any early 16v head from a 1.8L PL (SciroccoII, earlier GTi '86-89) or a 9a 16v from later Gti, Jetta, Passat B3 '87-93.

ABA OBD1 vs OBD2 -> https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthread.php?3875757-OBDI-vs-OBDII-ABA-engines

My Suggestions in order would be to consider:

1.) using your whole motor and turbo it on Stand alone (Not an ideal motor internals, but fine for modest goals)
2.) make your motor into an ABF Clone, but you will need to change pistons (or machine for clearance at a min)
3.) get 1.8t swap as complete as can be with accessories etc.

ABF clone is fairly str8 fwd, but you will need to source some readily avail specialty items to help you with hybrid build.

One benefit of the ABA is what is has a 60-2 tooth Crank trigger/pickup and yours has a 1 tooth Dist, which can be used as a cam trigger for Full sequential fuel/spark on MS if you really want to get freaky. Or just use Wasted spark Coil pack for more simplistic. ...or get OBD1 Dist for Distributor spark for even more simplistic. Lots of mix match options for management...

No Need for EDIS anything

Do some more reading and searching. Tons of threads on all of these topics.

As for Trans, you will def want to get rid of that horrid 020 and swap to an 02a or 02j for the main reason of a clutch setup that can handle turbo power (Among other things).
 
#8 ·
Alright, thank you for the input. I plan on doing some more reading, and ill check out the links you gave.

The biggest learning curve for me is just understanding the different engine codes.

with fuel and spark I will more likely than not use megasquirt since I am already familiar with it from a few previous projects i have had.

The only other issue I have is finding parts. Anything pre 2000 is all but non existent around where i live, and most of the junk yards that i could find parts from dont have much in the way of older VW parts for 16v conversions.

I'm not exactly planning on making an engine right out the gate that is pushing 20psi on all aftermarket internals. I like the idea of using an already turbo engine as a platform just for ease of parts access, and not having to deal with matching different engine parts together.

Like i said, ill keep reading on it before I decide on anything for certain.

My biggest question was whether I could put a newer model engine in my car, if it would be just not worse. 16v's to me jsut translate to more potential power.

Either way thanks again for your input
Dustin
 
#9 ·
...

My biggest question was whether I could put a newer model engine in my car, if it would be just not worse. 16v's to me jsut translate to more potential power.
You can use any motor up through the Mk4 1.8t 20v. Anything later (i.e. Mk5 Fsi/Tsi and later) and the mounts from your 8v will not bolt up to the block and will require extensive modifications.
 
#11 ·
After some reading, i think im going to just try and find a whole motor, hybrid setup sounds cool, but the cool factor is kind of "Eh" to me, only reason I considered it was because a decade or so ago I did the Dodge Neon head on a 2.5l block in a Dodge Shadow with a megasquirt. Fun project, but lots of work though, and a hybrid head conversion made me reminisce a little.

I think I am leaning more towards the 1.8t (if i can find one) and a newer transmission (haven't done much reading on that yet); I think at this point I am just going to buy what I can find, and build the best bang for the buck motor. Either way regardless of what i land on, I am going to rebuild what ever it is, and upgrade parts based on cost vs. quality (if the stock one is found to be more than sufficient, i'll just save the money for ones that might be more worth while etc...)

I will post what I end up with if anyone is interested.

-Dustin
 
#12 ·
I had just one more question.. If i put a 1.8t in my car,would I be able to use the stock electronics at all, or would that also require an ecu and harness swap? I will most likely go with a stand alone anyway, but I am more curious whether or not its feasible.

And based on what I can find locally, I am probably just going to turbo a refreshed 8v and maybe look into buying a whole different motor to swap in later down the road.

thanks
Dustin
 
#15 ·
I found out why i cant use the passat transmission today. bot since there are about 6 with the 1.8t in them, ill just grab one of them and try to get a newer 5speed from a mkIV jetta or golf. I dug out an old megasquirt unit v2.2 that was set up for a ford tfi system, and see if i can adapt it for use to save a few bucks.
I digress though. i think im now in the realm of the wrong subforum so after this ill move to the 1.8tforum for any more questions that might come up.

thanks again for eveyones input
Dustin
 
#17 ·
I kind of thought that with the case with the 2.2. Last time I used one was over a decade ago, and like I had aluded to was with a ford EDIS module. This one has never been installed even though it was built for a TFI module. I was hoping since I already have the 2.2pcb that I could use that easily enough.
Imagine my shock when i popped the hood of passat though, that was not what I was expecting, but based on the measurements that I took, I should be able to make the manifolds and stuff work.
Anyway thanks again
Dustin
 
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