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    1. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 12:08 PM #526
      Quote Originally Posted by ForTheWin View Post
      It may shock you to learn that there was a time when people from undeveloped countries were seen as lesser. In many cases, they were seen as property. Prior to even our own country allowing slavery, many other countries held this same view. Many even viewed people from lower classes as lesser, and could even see other white people as property.

      In short, humanity has a long history of enslaving one culture or another and treating them like ****.
      My point is that the change in definition of "all men" from then to now has been significant, and represented a reinterpretation of the DoI. Has it not? It demonstrates how much we've progressed as a country from where the founders were.

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    3. 07-11-2019 12:15 PM #527
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      My point is that the change in definition of "all men" from then to now has been significant, and represented a reinterpretation of the DoI. Has it not? It demonstrates how much we've progressed as a country from where the founders were.
      Of course. And I'm sure 200 years from now, they'll look back on our society as quaint, backwards, and imperfect.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain Picard, Hide and Q
      What he might say with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god!

    4. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 12:25 PM #528
      Quote Originally Posted by ForTheWin View Post
      Of course. And I'm sure 200 years from now, they'll look back on our society as quaint, backwards, and imperfect.
      I completely agree, and expect there are people we'll see as heroes today that people 200 years from now will be trying to remove statues of. And that's not a bad thing.

    5. 07-11-2019 12:34 PM #529
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      I completely agree, and expect there are people we'll see as heroes today that people 200 years from now will be trying to remove statues of. And that's not a bad thing.
      So long as it's based on reason and not reaction, I think that'll be for the best.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain Picard, Hide and Q
      What he might say with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god!

    6. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 12:40 PM #530
      Quote Originally Posted by ForTheWin View Post
      So long as it's based on reason and not reaction, I think that'll be for the best.
      Why qualify it? It's going to be based on whatever people think about the person being celebrated. That's how it has always worked and will always work. Saying things like this "aren't based on reason" is just an excuse to imagine people who disagree with you as unreasonable. There's no formula to determine who is worth having statues of and who is worth dedicating streets and holidays to. That's just a function of sentiment at a given time and location.

    7. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 12:48 PM #531
      But guys, my point was there is nothing 'binding' in the DoI, it's not laws or anything else. It's just a document declaring we will no longer be subject to Britain rule.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
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    8. I wait in line 4 hours for Pretzels on Pretzel Day Metallitubby's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 12:57 PM #532


      Can we ban these shoes too please? The symbols remind me of my ancestors being enslaved.
      * My contributions are not representative of American Honda

    9. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 01:15 PM #533
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Why qualify it? It's going to be based on whatever people think about the person being celebrated. That's how it has always worked and will always work. Saying things like this "aren't based on reason" is just an excuse to imagine people who disagree with you as unreasonable. There's no formula to determine who is worth having statues of and who is worth dedicating streets and holidays to. That's just a function of sentiment at a given time and location.
      The problem is that it's used as a political weapon with a massive double standard.

      Take this example: Brendan Eich was run out of the office of CEO at Mozilla because in 2008 he gave $1k to support CA's proposition that banned gay marriage. That proposition PASSED, by the way, in California in 2008. But his donation apparently made Brendan unfit to be a CEO of a tech company.

      Also in 2008, when running for President, Hillary Clinton said she thought marriage was only between a man and a woman. And what did she get? The major party nomination of the progressive party in 2016.

      So it's fine to say we are going to judge people on the standards of today for things they did years ago, except that it's demonstrably not equally used, and is usually just wielded to bludgeon people who are, for whatever reason, deemed "undesirable." I have no idea who Brendan Eich was run out of office, but the same people are pissed Hillary didn't get elected to office. It boggles the mind...or it's just politics and BS.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

    10. Learning New Things Every Day. GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 01:38 PM #534
      Quote Originally Posted by Metallitubby View Post


      Can we ban these shoes too please? The symbols remind me of my ancestors being enslaved.
      I knew you were an alien posing as an eye-talian. I knew it!!
      Making people aware of the Dunning-Kruger affliction. If someone you know is afflicted with Dunning-Kruger, please help. #knowthecure
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    11. Member VWestlife's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 02:03 PM #535
      Quote Originally Posted by The_Real_Stack View Post
      The problem is that it's used as a political weapon with a massive double standard.

      Take this example: Brendan Eich was run out of the office of CEO at Mozilla because in 2008 he gave $1k to support CA's proposition that banned gay marriage. That proposition PASSED, by the way, in California in 2008. But his donation apparently made Brendan unfit to be a CEO of a tech company.

      Also in 2008, when running for President, Hillary Clinton said she thought marriage was only between a man and a woman. And what did she get? The major party nomination of the progressive party in 2016.
      The difference is that Eich stood by his donation and never said he had changed his mind on the issue. Hillary did change her mind, just like Obama, Biden, and many other politicians.
      __________

    12. Member MotownSVT's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 02:25 PM #536
      Quote Originally Posted by VWestlife View Post
      The difference is that Eich stood by his donation and never said he had changed his mind on the issue. Hillary did change her mind, just like Obama, Biden, and many other politicians.
      And then you'll get half the people that will applaud their evolution on the topic while the other half scream about hypocrisy and opportunism. Both sides do it and it's maddening.

    13. Learning New Things Every Day. GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 02:33 PM #537
      Quote Originally Posted by VWestlife View Post
      The difference is that Eich stood by his donation and never said he had changed his mind on the issue. Hillary did change her mind, just like Obama, Biden, and many other politicians.
      about a great many things, it all depended on the audience.

      it's really not fair to argue with politicians as the shiny example that proves a point.
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    14. 07-11-2019 02:36 PM #538
      Quote Originally Posted by MotownSVT View Post
      And then you'll get half the people that will applaud their evolution on the topic while the other half scream about hypocrisy and opportunism. Both sides do it and it's maddening.
      They chase votes. Everything else is secondary. Campaign promises should be ignored, because their only goal is to gain more support than whoever their opponent is. For example: Obama campaigning against Hillary in 2008 "She'll say anything to get elected." He pointed out how she flip flopped on certain issues to gain support. Then, in 2016, he called her "the most qualified person to ever run for President". It's all about winning at all costs.

      Like Bush Sr's "No new taxes" rhetoric, or Paul Ryan walking the party line until he resigned and started bashing on Trump, the issues don't matter to them. Winning and staying in power is all that does.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain Picard, Hide and Q
      What he might say with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god!

    15. Senior Member NoDubJustYet's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 03:08 PM #539
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      I completely agree, and expect there are people we'll see as heroes today that people 200 years from now will be trying to remove statues of. And that's not a bad thing.







    16. 07-11-2019 03:14 PM #540
      Quote Originally Posted by NoDubJustYet View Post




      **** like this is why I said "as long as it's done by using reason". The verb, btw. There's no reason to demolish those monuments. It was spite, ignorance, and hatred that led to those being destroyed.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain Picard, Hide and Q
      What he might say with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god!

    17. Learning New Things Every Day. GreenandChrome's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 04:31 PM #541
      Quote Originally Posted by ForTheWin View Post
      **** like this is why I said "as long as it's done by using reason". The verb, btw. There's no reason to demolish those monuments. It was spite, ignorance, and hatred that led to those being destroyed.
      Making people aware of the Dunning-Kruger affliction. If someone you know is afflicted with Dunning-Kruger, please help. #knowthecure
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    18. 07-11-2019 04:38 PM #542
      Quote Originally Posted by GreenandChrome View Post
      My point of view would be the historical significance of those statues and monuments. What we could've learned from them. What future generations could learn about us from the ones we have now. That's why I'm in the camp of moving confederate statues to museums or other relevant sites rather than tearing them down and destroying them. We don't need them up so we can idolize people like Nathan Bedford Forrest, but we need to learn about who he and people like him were so we can understand our past.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain Picard, Hide and Q
      What he might say with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god!

    19. Member VWestlife's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 04:42 PM #543
      Quote Originally Posted by ForTheWin View Post
      They chase votes. Everything else is secondary. Campaign promises should be ignored, because their only goal is to gain more support than whoever their opponent is. For example: Obama campaigning against Hillary in 2008 "She'll say anything to get elected." He pointed out how she flip flopped on certain issues to gain support. Then, in 2016, he called her "the most qualified person to ever run for President". It's all about winning at all costs.
      And Trump used to be a pro-choice Democrat who donated to Hillary's 2008 presidential campaign. Just let that thought sink in for a little bit.
      __________

    20. 07-11-2019 04:48 PM #544
      Quote Originally Posted by VWestlife View Post
      And Trump used to be a pro-choice Democrat who donated to Hillary's 2008 presidential campaign. Just let that thought sink in for a little bit.
      There's nothing to let sink in that isn't already there. Trump bounced from side to side like a pinball. He's a good friend of Bill's, too. Bill's the one that talked him into running as a Republican this time.
      Quote Originally Posted by Captain Picard, Hide and Q
      What he might say with irony, I say with conviction. What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason, how infinite in faculty, In form and moving how express and admirable, In action how like an Angel, In apprehension how like a god!

    21. Member VWestlife's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 04:48 PM #545
      Quote Originally Posted by ForTheWin View Post
      My point of view would be the historical significance of those statues and monuments. What we could've learned from them. What future generations could learn about us from the ones we have now. That's why I'm in the camp of moving confederate statues to museums or other relevant sites rather than tearing them down and destroying them. We don't need them up so we can idolize people like Nathan Bedford Forrest, but we need to learn about who he and people like him were so we can understand our past.
      If private citizens want to arrange and pay for the preservation of these statues on private land, I'm all for it. Just not with my tax dollars.

      Anyway, future generations will have talking, animated 3D holograms of historical figures, rather than statues.
      __________

    22. Member The_Real_Stack's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 06:17 PM #546
      Quote Originally Posted by VWestlife View Post
      If private citizens want to arrange and pay for the preservation of these statues on private land, I'm all for it. Just not with my tax dollars.

      Anyway, future generations will have talking, animated 3D holograms of historical figures, rather than statues.
      I too have been to Disney in the rain and seen the hall of Presidents.
      Quote Originally Posted by Volkl View Post
      My wife wanted a SUV with a manual transmission. I suggested a Wrangler, she said no way, too masculine

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      07-11-2019 06:37 PM #547
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Why qualify it? It's going to be based on whatever people think about the person being celebrated. That's how it has always worked and will always work. Saying things like this "aren't based on reason" is just an excuse to imagine people who disagree with you as unreasonable. There's no formula to determine who is worth having statues of and who is worth dedicating streets and holidays to. That's just a function of sentiment at a given time and location.
      How very self-righteous of you. If for 200+ years the thinking was based on merit, achievement, & accomplishment towards an entire nation, and with no new information available that might disqualify, some new generation comes along and says, "the previous generations didn't know S___, and I feel offended, so let's change this!" Is that how you think it should work?

    24. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      07-11-2019 07:42 PM #548
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      How very self-righteous of you. If for 200+ years the thinking was based on merit, achievement, & accomplishment towards an entire nation, and with no new information available that might disqualify, some new generation comes along and says, "the previous generations didn't know S___, and I feel offended, so let's change this!" Is that how you think it should work?
      Absolutely. If the evolution of public sentiment causes us to remove terrible laws or add new ones, why should nobody be allowed to reconsider whether historical figures should continue to be held up as heroes? When their list of achievements doesn’t extend to practicing what they preach, people are right to question whether they were actually heroes.

      So one generation gets to establish someone as a hero based on how they feel about them, and future generations have to carry on those feeling unquestionably for eternity? Doesn’t work like that.



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      Last edited by westsideseal; 07-11-2019 at 07:53 PM.

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      07-12-2019 07:28 AM #549
      Quote Originally Posted by westsideseal View Post
      Absolutely. If the evolution of public sentiment causes us to remove terrible laws or add new ones, why should nobody be allowed to reconsider whether historical figures should continue to be held up as heroes? When their list of achievements doesn’t extend to practicing what they preach, people are right to question whether they were actually heroes.

      So one generation gets to establish someone as a hero based on how they feel about them, and future generations have to carry on those feeling unquestionably for eternity? Doesn’t work like that.
      Preserving monuments and statues of the past is important because they are a study and reflection of our history, they help us to understand and respect people who lived in different eras with different habits and traditions. They also help us observe the changes in the societies for a better understanding of the past and the reasons that lead to the development of current day society. To tear down the past "just because" of current day emotion towards how people behaved back then is shortsighted in educating a society. There are hundreds of statues and monuments all over the world older than this country and they represent political, military, religious and historical/cultural/musical figures which are part of that countries culture and past. If one is uncomfortable with the past history of their country or culture they need to fix themselves first. They can't change history no matter how hard they try.

      The founding fathers didn't have just one generation thinking they were heros, it's spanned 200 years now. If you believe the ones that owned slaves are not worthy of their monuments, I can only hope you are in the 1% minority. It would be a bitch to change every street name, town, county, monument, statue for both Washington and Jefferson alone. Good Luck with that.

    26. Member westsideseal's Avatar
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      07-12-2019 09:04 AM #550
      Quote Originally Posted by tbvvw View Post
      Preserving monuments and statues of the past is important because they are a study and reflection of our history, they help us to understand and respect people who lived in different eras with different habits and traditions. They also help us observe the changes in the societies for a better understanding of the past and the reasons that lead to the development of current day society. To tear down the past "just because" of current day emotion towards how people behaved back then is shortsighted in educating a society. There are hundreds of statues and monuments all over the world older than this country and they represent political, military, religious and historical/cultural/musical figures which are part of that countries culture and past. If one is uncomfortable with the past history of their country or culture they need to fix themselves first. They can't change history no matter how hard they try.

      The founding fathers didn't have just one generation thinking they were heros, it's spanned 200 years now. If you believe the ones that owned slaves are not worthy of their monuments, I can only hope you are in the 1% minority. It would be a bitch to change every street name, town, county, monument, statue for both Washington and Jefferson alone. Good Luck with that.
      They can’t change history, which is the point, but they can make a value judgement about who they want to memorialize. If enough people in a given jurisdiction want to pull together and have Jefferson Ave changed to Tubman Blvd, that’s an appropriate function of representative government. Same as if they no longer think a given founding father represents their values. Hoping that statues will never be reconsidered once they are constructed is just you being afraid of change.

      The current population gets to choose who we hold up as heroes. There’s no obligation to carry on the traditions of the past, despite how unfair you think it is.


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