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    1. Member VT1.8T's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 10:30 AM #551
      I considered one when they came out but ended up with a 2.0t touring Accord instead. I didn't need an AWD sedan so the honda was much better bargain. It had an msrp of $36,690 and I paid $29,000. A similarly equipped Arteon (albeit with AWD) would have been a premium with an MSRP of $47,205. The only thing I wish the Accord had would be a hatch instead of a trunk.

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    3. Member
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      02-13-2020 10:36 AM #552
      Quote Originally Posted by silverspeedbuggy View Post
      Don’t misread my posts: the Arteon definitely has challenges.* If VW wants to sell more of them (and what business doesn’t want to sell more of something?) they have to do something. Adjust pricing, adjust packages, advertise. Something. They’re saying they know it’s a niche model, but I think they’re also saying that they believe they can sell more. What’s “more?” Are they thinking 100 more a month? 200? They’re also saying they’re not just going to sit back and accept 400/month.

      *Agreed on what’s been stated: it’s not compelling enough as-is. It’s main selling points are style, practicality, and available AWD. The detracting points are price, style (if you’re not into expressive designs), interior design, and performance. If it were cheaper it would be a better value. If it had more performance the price would be more palatable. And for a premium car, the bland interior design doesn’t match the exterior.

      The Arteon was high on my list for a new car. But a Giulia found its way into my driveway. It has style, performance, and is a ridiculously great drive. If the Arteon was more dynamic or was a better overall value (read: leased well) it would have been a stronger contender for my monthly payment.
      If the US gets the wagon variant, the value proposition increases for me. I look forward to sniping another well contented, heavily-depreciated, low volume sales flop.

      If VWoA is serious about turning the tides on selling niche vehicles the #1 issue they have when it comes to moving product is lease pricing. You saw this with your Guilia, and I saw it last year as I looked for a wagon. I could get a Tiguan with the same MSRP as an Alltrack for almost $100/mo less. I get the Tiguan moves volume so there's built in incentives on a corporate scale to get that product moving, but it'd be nice as someone who would have wanted to stay loyal to the brand by buying another brand new vehicle instead of used to have the same type of lease support built into a car that appealed to me as an enthusiast. Even GTI leases suck.
      Last edited by oidoglr; 02-13-2020 at 10:39 AM.

    4. Moderator silverspeedbuggy's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 11:01 AM #553
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      If the US gets the wagon variant, the value proposition increases for me. I look forward to sniping another well contented, heavily-depreciated, low volume sales flop.

      If VWoA is serious about turning the tides on selling niche vehicles the #1 issue they have when it comes to moving product is lease pricing. You saw this with your Guilia, and I saw it last year as I looked for a wagon. I could get a Tiguan with the same MSRP as an Alltrack for almost $100/mo less. I get the Tiguan moves volume so there's built in incentives on a corporate scale to get that product moving, but it'd be nice as someone who would have wanted to stay loyal to the brand by buying another brand new vehicle instead of used to have the same type of lease support built into a car that appealed to me as an enthusiast. Even GTI leases suck.
      Yep. This. For comparison: My Giulia monthly payment was only slightly higher than a GTI S in Dec. 2019. And I put waaaay less down then their required $3499.

    5. 02-13-2020 11:21 AM #554
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      If the US gets the wagon variant, the value proposition increases for me. I look forward to sniping another well contented, heavily-depreciated, low volume sales flop.

      If VWoA is serious about turning the tides on selling niche vehicles the #1 issue they have when it comes to moving product is lease pricing. You saw this with your Guilia, and I saw it last year as I looked for a wagon. I could get a Tiguan with the same MSRP as an Alltrack for almost $100/mo less. I get the Tiguan moves volume so there's built in incentives on a corporate scale to get that product moving, but it'd be nice as someone who would have wanted to stay loyal to the brand by buying another brand new vehicle instead of used to have the same type of lease support built into a car that appealed to me as an enthusiast. Even GTI leases suck.
      Quote Originally Posted by silverspeedbuggy View Post
      Yep. This. For comparison: My Giulia monthly payment was only slightly higher than a GTI S in Dec. 2019. And I put waaaay less down then their required $3499.
      VWs have always leased like dung. That's why you buy them. And SSB, you don't need to put money down on a lease, just be prepared to pay more monthly. I have never put down on a lease in my life because it is a sunk cost if you total the car the next day. In instances where you pay a lease in full, you can recoup some of the money, but with a down payment, good luck getting it back.

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      02-13-2020 11:26 AM #555
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      If the US gets the wagon variant, the value proposition increases for me. I look forward to sniping another well contented, heavily-depreciated, low volume sales flop.

      If VWoA is serious about turning the tides on selling niche vehicles the #1 issue they have when it comes to moving product is lease pricing. You saw this with your Guilia, and I saw it last year as I looked for a wagon. I could get a Tiguan with the same MSRP as an Alltrack for almost $100/mo less. I get the Tiguan moves volume so there's built in incentives on a corporate scale to get that product moving, but it'd be nice as someone who would have wanted to stay loyal to the brand by buying another brand new vehicle instead of used to have the same type of lease support built into a car that appealed to me as an enthusiast. Even GTI leases suck.
      The problem with this is the Tiguan leases cheaper because the in demand SUV's don't depreciate as much. VW doesn't get product moving at a loss by subsidizing the customers depreciation thus making even less money on an already sketchy niche product. it would be the same think as putting cash on the hood but with even more risk of the car losing even more value than estimated when the lease is up. It's supply and demand. Low demand = Low resale = high lease rates. I hate it as much as the next guy but the fact is SUVs and pickups sell... Cars, especially wagons and sports cars don't.

    7. Member
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      02-13-2020 12:00 PM #556
      Quote Originally Posted by VT1.8T View Post
      I considered one when they came out but ended up with a 2.0t touring Accord instead. I didn't need an AWD sedan so the honda was much better bargain. It had an msrp of $36,690 and I paid $29,000. A similarly equipped Arteon (albeit with AWD) would have been a premium with an MSRP of $47,205. The only thing I wish the Accord had would be a hatch instead of a trunk.
      That is an example just how niche the Arteon market is. So many people will compare the Arteon to sedans, because they consider them in the same class - and for almost everyone, they are. But if you are that strange, niche buyer who will ONLY consider hatch/wagon, and needs AWD, the market is very small...when compared in that particular class, there are very few competitors - most are more expensive. The only one cheaper with the same levels of equipment and size is the Buick Regal, which is notably downmarket in feel and build. The A5 sportback starts in the same price range, but as soon as equipment is added, can soar to $10K - $15K over the Arteon's price. Audi Allroad, Volvo V60 wagon, and Audi A7 are all priced $15K more more above when fully loaded with AWD. Even the Kia needs to be a bottom trim level to stay under $50K, and fully loaded hits $55K. The Kia was really the only other car I was considering strongly, as the rest all priced themselves out of consideration (except the Buick which just didn't feel quite competitive).

      No question, anyone not needing AWD, and anyone who doesn't care if it's a sedan or hatch, has many competitive choices to consider, many priced much better. For those looking for cars like the A7, or who specifically want a wagon or hatch only in the large/lux space, the Arteon is one of the cheapest fully loaded options available. There are definitely not very many people in the US looking for this type of car, and never will be. Vive le difference!
      _____
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      2019 Arteon SEL Premium R-Line

    8. 02-13-2020 01:09 PM #557
      Quote Originally Posted by zackiedawg View Post
      That is an example just how niche the Arteon market is. So many people will compare the Arteon to sedans, because they consider them in the same class - and for almost everyone, they are. But if you are that strange, niche buyer who will ONLY consider hatch/wagon, and needs AWD, the market is very small...when compared in that particular class, there are very few competitors - most are more expensive. The only one cheaper with the same levels of equipment and size is the Buick Regal, which is notably downmarket in feel and build. The A5 sportback starts in the same price range, but as soon as equipment is added, can soar to $10K - $15K over the Arteon's price. Audi Allroad, Volvo V60 wagon, and Audi A7 are all priced $15K more more above when fully loaded with AWD. Even the Kia needs to be a bottom trim level to stay under $50K, and fully loaded hits $55K. The Kia was really the only other car I was considering strongly, as the rest all priced themselves out of consideration (except the Buick which just didn't feel quite competitive).

      No question, anyone not needing AWD, and anyone who doesn't care if it's a sedan or hatch, has many competitive choices to consider, many priced much better. For those looking for cars like the A7, or who specifically want a wagon or hatch only in the large/lux space, the Arteon is one of the cheapest fully loaded options available. There are definitely not very many people in the US looking for this type of car, and never will be. Vive le difference!
      Why do you need AWD in Florida? And the Regal is moot since they just discontinued it in the US.

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      02-13-2020 02:48 PM #558
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Why do you need AWD in Florida? And the Regal is moot since they just discontinued it in the US.
      I think AWD in something like this is more about putting the power down in all conditions and having better traction in the rain than it is about driving faster in the snow.

      No AWD is a major drawback and a dealbreaker for many people when it comes to something like the Lexus ES, which I consider to loosely be a competitor (or at least a cross-shop) to the Arteon.

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      02-13-2020 03:25 PM #559
      Quote Originally Posted by JitteryJoe View Post
      The problem with this is the Tiguan leases cheaper because the in demand SUV's don't depreciate as much. VW doesn't get product moving at a loss by subsidizing the customers depreciation thus making even less money on an already sketchy niche product. it would be the same think as putting cash on the hood but with even more risk of the car losing even more value than estimated when the lease is up. It's supply and demand. Low demand = Low resale = high lease rates. I hate it as much as the next guy but the fact is SUVs and pickups sell... Cars, especially wagons and sports cars don't.
      That'd be true, except that well-executed enthusiast models do hold better resale value than volume CUVs. 2016 Golf Rs are still in the $25k range. And my original point was even if the anticipated depreciation is greater than a volume product, if you're telling the public seriously that you want to move niche/performance cars to improve your brand's image/cache, you'd back it up by incentivizing purchases of the types of cars you want your brand to be known for, even if it means reallocating some of the profitable lease dollars from Tiguans to GTIs, Arteons, etc. with manufacturer incentives to move inventory.

    11. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 03:31 PM #560
      I assumed that AWD > than FWD until I owned a Legacy GT (2005) for about a year. SE TX gets pretty much the same kind of weather as FL (rain) it I realized that AWD wasn't really any advantage, and really only added a layer of unnecessary technical complexity.
      Quote Originally Posted by Col. David Crockett
      I told the people of my district, that, if they saw fit to re-elect me, I would serve them as faithfully as I had done; but, if not, they might go to Hell, and I would go to Texas.

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      02-13-2020 04:12 PM #561
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I assumed that AWD > than FWD until I owned a Legacy GT (2005) for about a year. SE TX gets pretty much the same kind of weather as FL (rain) it I realized that AWD wasn't really any advantage, and really only added a layer of unnecessary technical complexity.
      I guess it depends how you drive. AWD is so much better than typical open diff peg leg FWD to me, even in the dry, but especially in the rain. I used to hate on AWD but now I think it's my preference for regular cars, with RWD following (mainly for sports cars). Even for just a regular daily I don't think I can do FWD again.

    13. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 04:47 PM #562
      Quote Originally Posted by CTK View Post
      I guess it depends how you drive. AWD is so much better than typical open diff peg leg FWD to me, even in the dry, but especially in the rain. I used to hate on AWD but now I think it's my preference for regular cars, with RWD following (mainly for sports cars). Even for just a regular daily I don't think I can do FWD again.
      I moved from that Legacy into an 08 Speed3 and felt in no way penalized. Even considering the latter car's reputation for torque steering. Now I'm in a RWD muscle car and that's definitely my preference, but if I had to change platforms, AWD isn't compelling to me in the least.
      Quote Originally Posted by Col. David Crockett
      I told the people of my district, that, if they saw fit to re-elect me, I would serve them as faithfully as I had done; but, if not, they might go to Hell, and I would go to Texas.

    14. Member sg207ptg's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 04:58 PM #563
      Do they sell? I probably have seen 1 on the road in the last 6 months.

    15. Member
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      02-13-2020 05:41 PM #564
      Quote Originally Posted by ice4life View Post
      Why do you need AWD in Florida? And the Regal is moot since they just discontinued it in the US.
      Precisely as others mentioned - AWD for me is something I absolutely love with our rain. We don't get a little bit - it rains probably 200-240 days out of the year here, and sometimes heavily. The difference in overall traction, off the line traction, etc is huge with AWD. Night and day. When I get stuck driving a FWD car in rain, I routinely find myself spinning the front wheels at green lights (because I'm used to AWD's instant hookup with no wheel spin), and in turns the extreme understeer (whereas AWD better controls the car in the turn with a controlled and predictable drift and much less understeer push). Hitting large ponding standing water is much more stable with AWD, less prone to break traction, pull off to the side of the road, etc.

      The Regal may be moot now, but back in Jan 2019 when I was weighing a new purchase, it was still a consideration.
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    16. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 08:37 PM #565
      Quote Originally Posted by zackiedawg View Post
      Precisely as others mentioned - AWD for me is something I absolutely love with our rain. We don't get a little bit - it rains probably 200-240 days out of the year here, and sometimes heavily. The difference in overall traction, off the line traction, etc is huge with AWD. Night and day. When I get stuck driving a FWD car in rain, I routinely find myself spinning the front wheels at green lights (because I'm used to AWD's instant hookup with no wheel spin), and in turns the extreme understeer (whereas AWD better controls the car in the turn with a controlled and predictable drift and much less understeer push). Hitting large ponding standing water is much more stable with AWD, less prone to break traction, pull off to the side of the road, etc.

      The Regal may be moot now, but back in Jan 2019 when I was weighing a new purchase, it was still a consideration.
      Fair, but a lot of that could be tires as well. Some tires are awful in rain whereas others are great.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    17. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      02-13-2020 09:39 PM #566
      Tires > AWD in the wet
      Quote Originally Posted by Col. David Crockett
      I told the people of my district, that, if they saw fit to re-elect me, I would serve them as faithfully as I had done; but, if not, they might go to Hell, and I would go to Texas.

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      02-13-2020 11:30 PM #567
      Quote Originally Posted by sg207ptg View Post
      Do they sell? I probably have seen 1 on the road in the last 6 months.
      much much weaker than a $50k KIA.

      https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/volksw...onthly-yearly/

      https://www.goodcarbadcar.net/kia-st...es-usa-canada/

      In Toronto, it is easier to find a Lambo SUV running than Arteon. It is VW version of RLX.
      “I am not a Mac user unless under duress.” - John Carmack

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      02-14-2020 08:29 AM #568
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      I moved from that Legacy into an 08 Speed3 and felt in no way penalized. Even considering the latter car's reputation for torque steering. Now I'm in a RWD muscle car and that's definitely my preference, but if I had to change platforms, AWD isn't compelling to me in the least.
      Different strokes for different folks I guess. My 140HP Civic one wheel peeled on excellent DWS06s. My Optima torque steered on every set of tires I put on it. TLX is a revelation for me. It just puts the power down all the time, no fuss, which is what I want, at least right now. We get a good bit of rain here too and I don't want a daily that forces me to tip toe if the weather is anything but perfect. My G37 could be like that some times.

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      02-14-2020 09:31 AM #569
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      Tires > AWD in the wet
      Sick dude. The option isn't "Bald Chinese tires & AWD" vs "Best tires on the market & FWD".

      AWD w/ good tires > FWD w/ good tires in the wet

    21. Member
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      02-14-2020 10:01 AM #570
      Tires are very important in the rain...unquestionably. Having driven rear-wheel-drive, front-wheel-drive, 4-wheel-drive, and all-wheel-drive vehicles in tropical rain conditions over the past 37 years, there's no question for me that good tires plus good AWD is the best combo there is for me.
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    22. Chili Bigot Seabird's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 10:18 AM #571
      Quote Originally Posted by zackiedawg View Post
      Tires are very important in the rain...unquestionably. Having driven rear-wheel-drive, front-wheel-drive, 4-wheel-drive, and all-wheel-drive vehicles in tropical rain conditions over the past 37 years, there's no question for me that good tires plus good AWD is the best combo there is for me.
      *shrug* I'll put up my 32 years of licensed driving in similar conditions in a similar cross-section of vehicles and maintain that AWD is overrated and marketing hype. But hey, I don't mean to discourage anyone from buying what they like.
      Quote Originally Posted by Col. David Crockett
      I told the people of my district, that, if they saw fit to re-elect me, I would serve them as faithfully as I had done; but, if not, they might go to Hell, and I would go to Texas.

    23. Member
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      02-14-2020 11:24 AM #572
      Does everyone do launch control from a red light in the rain in Florida?

    24. Member
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      02-14-2020 11:45 AM #573
      Quote Originally Posted by oidoglr View Post
      Does everyone do launch control from a red light in the rain in Florida?
      If they have AWD, yes.
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    25. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 05:22 PM #574
      Quote Originally Posted by Seabird View Post
      *shrug* I'll put up my 32 years of licensed driving in similar conditions in a similar cross-section of vehicles and maintain that AWD is overrated and marketing hype. But hey, I don't mean to discourage anyone from buying what they like.
      I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is overrated. An argument can be made that it is actually the best of the three when done right. But I agree that a lot of problems people have can be chalked up to lack of skill or tires instead of which wheels are driven. They are all very different, you just have to drive appropriately.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    26. Member vwbrvr6's Avatar
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      02-14-2020 09:51 PM #575
      Quote Originally Posted by zackiedawg View Post
      If they have AWD, yes.
      Even without....

      If you are putting down any sort of power AWD is far superior to front wheel drive. First gear is pretty useless in my car. My next car will def have AWD
      Last edited by vwbrvr6; 02-14-2020 at 09:54 PM.
      It go down in the DM

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