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    1. Member finklejag's Avatar
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      03-29-2017 08:23 PM #101
      The Tornado red ones have soul.

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    3. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      03-29-2017 09:58 PM #102
      Quote Originally Posted by UncleJB View Post
      I don't know why but this made me really sad.
      I know why. Because it's a gigantic waste of resources. You're weeping for the sheer insanity of it all.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    4. Member
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      20 years of German cars led to this: 2016 RAV4 hybrid, 2020 Prius Prime
      03-29-2017 10:40 PM #103
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      I know why. Because it's a gigantic waste of resources. You're weeping for the sheer insanity of it all.
      The video has me more saddened by the sea of grayscale color offerings that VW has been offering in North America.

    5. Senior Member Silly_me's Avatar
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      03-29-2017 11:07 PM #104
      Quote Originally Posted by Dubveiser View Post
      The video has me more saddened by the sea of grayscale color offerings that VW has been offering in North America.
      That is why they made it a point to say it was filmed in 4k.
      Germans are white people. Look up #84 on the list of things white people like: Gear. Lots of Gear. We even have gear farkles over here. -Atomicalex

      Upon my word I have had as much excitement on a car as in the air, especially since the R.F.C. have had women drivers. -James Byford McCudden

    6. Senior Member UncleJB's Avatar
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      03-30-2017 06:28 AM #105
      Quote Originally Posted by ThatGTI View Post
      This reminds me of the scene in Who Killed the Electric Car? with the EV1s. Kinda sad.
      That occurred to me also.

    7. Member
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      04-13-2017 01:15 PM #106
      Here is another site in Crete, IL

      Sent from my HTC6535LVW using Tapatalk

    8. 04-13-2017 10:17 PM #107
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryan1981 View Post
      I disagree. Every single one of them bought those cars for the fuel mileage. And it delivered. Emissions aside, which nobody knew about, the car was as advertised. And even with the emissions being off, I'm willing to bet it's still one of the cleaner cars on the road. Look at all of the trucks, semis, clapped-out Cadillacs, bombed out Oldsmobiles, and smoking Chryslers cruising around. They should just give one of these VWs in exchange for getting some of those bombers off of the road.
      I agree. These vehicles could be flashed to comply with emissions rules, which might make them less than satisfying to purchase on the regular market, but why not use them as charity vehicles for folks that need cars and are truly poor and needy?

      Habitat for Humanity

      MOBILITY FOR HUMANITY? (R)
      Last edited by dr whos it; 04-13-2017 at 10:20 PM.

    9. Member gonzo08452's Avatar
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      04-13-2017 10:31 PM #108
      My father has a non running diesel caddy in his garage. I bet he'd love the idea of swapping in a modern tdi.

    10. Member 1Point8TDan's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 02:26 AM #109
      Since VW now owns all the vehicles, why can't they ship them out of the country?

    11. Member Deserion's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 07:06 AM #110
      Quote Originally Posted by 1Point8TDan View Post
      Since VW now owns all the vehicles, why can't they ship them out of the country?
      Part of the settlement with the EPA says they cannot export.

    12. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 10:16 AM #111
      Quote Originally Posted by dr whos it View Post
      I agree. These vehicles could be flashed to comply with emissions rules, which might make them less than satisfying to purchase on the regular market, but why not use them as charity vehicles for folks that need cars and are truly poor and needy?

      Habitat for Humanity

      MOBILITY FOR HUMANITY? (R)
      Ehhh... It's not just drivability. The cars running in cheat mode could get through the EPA tests. But that doesn't mean they could run in that configuration indefinitely. For example, the DPF could clog up quickly.
      =

    13. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 10:28 AM #112
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryan1981 View Post
      I disagree. Every single one of them bought those cars for the fuel mileage. And it delivered. Emissions aside, which nobody knew about, the car was as advertised. And even with the emissions being off, I'm willing to bet it's still one of the cleaner cars on the road. Look at all of the trucks, semis, clapped-out Cadillacs, bombed out Oldsmobiles, and smoking Chryslers cruising around. They should just give one of these VWs in exchange for getting some of those bombers off of the road.
      Wrong. DEAD wrong.

      Consumers on the surface got what they paid for, but it was based on a basic assumption that the car was legally available for sale. Oh sure, people may not go into the dealer with that requirement, because it's ASSUMED all the cars are legal for sale. It's the reason why we can't buy Escort RS Cosworths....they were not legal for our roads. The specific reason why they (and TDIs) are not legal are relevant but otherwise nobody cares. Joe Average Guy who buys a car is assuming (perhaps subconsciously) that the cars are legal for sale.

      TDIs are NOT legal for sale, thus, whether Joe A. knows it or not, he is NOT getting what he paid for - a legally compliant automobile. It doesn't MATTER why it isn't legal - it could have the wrong glove box latch, illegal emissions, or the steering wheel is on the wrong side, or it doesn't pass crash tests. The reason is irrelevent in the end - illegal is illegal.

      Whether it is cleaner than an older clapped out car is irrelevant. They do not pass the standard set for them at the time they were offered for sale, whether by a fraction or a country mile. They are illegal.

      The sooner Dubbers realize this and stop apologizing for a stupid situation of VWs own making, the better we will all be.

      Crush the cars that cannot be made compliant.
      Last edited by Maximum_Download; 04-14-2017 at 11:02 AM.
      Matt
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    14. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 11:17 AM #113
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Wrong. DEAD wrong.

      Consumers on the surface got what they paid for, but it was based on a basic assumption that the car was legally available for sale. Oh sure, people may not go into the dealer with that requirement, because it's ASSUMED all the cars are legal for sale. It's the reason why we can't buy Escort RS Cosworths....they were not legal for our roads. The specific reason why they (and TDIs) are not legal are relevant but otherwise nobody cares. Joe Average Guy who buys a car is assuming (perhaps subconsciously) that the cars are legal for sale.

      TDIs are NOT legal for sale, thus, whether Joe A. knows it or not, he is NOT getting what he paid for - a legally compliant automobile. It doesn't MATTER why it isn't legal - it could have the wrong glove box latch, illegal emissions, or the steering wheel is on the wrong side, or it doesn't pass crash tests. The reason is irrelevent in the end - illegal is illegal.

      Whether it is cleaner than an older clapped out car is irrelevant. They do not pass the standard set for them at the time they were offered for sale, whether by a fraction or a country mile. They are illegal.

      The sooner Dubbers realize this and stop apologizing for a stupid situation of VWs own making, the better we will all be.

      Crush the cars that cannot be made compliant.
      He's not "dead" wrong.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    15. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 11:31 AM #114
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      He's not "dead" wrong.
      It depends on how strictly you view the laws on legality of sale.

      From my standpoint, the TDIs were never legal and should never have been sold, OR, they should have been sold with the fixes in place. It's very black and white for me.
      Matt
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    16. Member saron81's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 11:40 AM #115
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      He's not "dead" wrong.
      Later small turbo Escort Cosworths were US legal too.

    17. Senior Member
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      04-14-2017 11:51 AM #116
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Wrong. DEAD wrong.
      He's not dead wrong.

      I bought both of mine because of the mileage, I wanted a diesel, I wanted a wagon, I didn't want a 2.5, I had a 2.0t, and on the second one my company allowance worked for the diesel not the 1.8t.. also SEL manual on that one..

      I didn't buy it in anyway considering a claimed or possible benefit to the environment. I did buy it assuming it was legal. But I wasn't harmed in anyway more than the person nextdoor (which at one point had 2 TDIs too because I bought it the environmental implications doesn't hurt the owner more than another.



      If you read his statement as a dubber apologizing you have a real problem with reading comprehension or some other problem you need to work on not the "dubbers".

    18. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 12:04 PM #117
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      He's not dead wrong.

      I bought both of mine because of the mileage, I wanted a diesel, I wanted a wagon, I didn't want a 2.5, I had a 2.0t, and on the second one my company allowance worked for the diesel not the 1.8t.. also SEL manual on that one..

      I didn't buy it in anyway considering a claimed or possible benefit to the environment. I did buy it assuming it was legal. But I wasn't harmed in anyway more than the person nextdoor (which at one point had 2 TDIs too because I bought it the environmental implications doesn't hurt the owner more than another.



      If you read his statement as a dubber apologizing you have a real problem with reading comprehension or some other problem you need to work on not the "dubbers".
      Here's the crux of my argument, and both you and Triumph are glossing over it. Do you not see the problem with this?
      Matt
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    19. Senior Member
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      04-14-2017 12:12 PM #118
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      Here's the crux of my argument, and both you and Triumph are glossing over it. Do you not see the problem with this?
      And here is the crux of the argument you are glossing over when claiming he was dead wrong

      Quote Originally Posted by Ryan1981 View Post
      Emissions aside, which nobody knew about, the car was as advertised.
      Everyone nows it wasn't legal. That doesn't make the other poster dead wrong, which is what we objected to.

    20. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 01:42 PM #119
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      And here is the crux of the argument you are glossing over when claiming he was dead wrong



      Everyone nows it wasn't legal. That doesn't make the other poster dead wrong, which is what we objected to.
      The car wasn't legal. If the car was as advertised, it would be legal.

      I mean....I can't really say it any more clearly than that.
      Matt
      2018 Toyota Highlander SE AWD, Midnight Black Metallic/Black
      2018 Volkswagen Golf R 6-speed, Lapiz Blue/Titan Black
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    21. Senior Member
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      04-14-2017 01:53 PM #120
      Quote Originally Posted by Maximum_Download View Post
      The car wasn't legal. If the car was as advertised, it would be legal.
      That isn't black and white, certainly not in how you are describing it.

      The cars are still legal, and according to the EPA will remain legal, says so right on their website about the scandal. If they were not legal then there would be no option to keep them or for VW to resell them.

      They are also being fixed below a level that is technically to the limits of the regulation and allowing them to be sold.

    22. Member dmorrow's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 02:18 PM #121
      Quote Originally Posted by Honda_Appliance View Post
      This. I can't believe there is a single TDI driver that was disappointed that their NOx emissions were out of spec. Of all the ways that consumers have been screwed over, why did this get some much traction? I think there is more to the story that we will never know, i.e., some lobbyist persuaded the right person.

      I don't blame anyone for taking the buyout. Who's going to say to no to what was basically a free car for a few years? Still doesn't mean the gov't did the right thing.
      As already shown in this post there are people disappointed. Strange you didn't see this coming.

    23. Senior Member
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      04-14-2017 02:36 PM #122
      Quote Originally Posted by Deserion View Post
      Part of the settlement with the EPA says they cannot export.
      They would have to implement an approved emissions fix before exporting.

    24. Member Maximum_Download's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 03:22 PM #123
      Quote Originally Posted by chris86vw View Post
      That isn't black and white, certainly not in how you are describing it.

      The cars are still legal, and according to the EPA will remain legal, says so right on their website about the scandal. If they were not legal then there would be no option to keep them or for VW to resell them.

      They are also being fixed below a level that is technically to the limits of the regulation and allowing them to be sold.
      As I understand it, only the 2015s can be fixed, as can certain Passats. Older TDIs are not fixable.

      I am basing this off principle. Right now, none of the 4 cylinder TDIs are technically "legal" in their current form. I don't know where you get your definition of "legal" from, but as I understand it, VW cannot guarantee 100% compliance, therefore they had to pay the fine to atone for the TDIs that will remain on the roads.
      Matt
      2018 Toyota Highlander SE AWD, Midnight Black Metallic/Black
      2018 Volkswagen Golf R 6-speed, Lapiz Blue/Titan Black
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    25. Member
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      04-14-2017 07:34 PM #124
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      In the US, we don't regulate CO2 as if it were a smog forming emission. Instead, we regulate it through CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), which was created in response to the Oil Embargo in the 1970s. Why? Probably has a lot to do with politics. At the time, it wasn't widely accepted that CO2 was "harmful" to the environment since we exhale it. So, the EPA wasn't granted authority to regulate automotive CO2 emissions via the Clean Air Act. CAFE is regulated by NHTSA but fuel economy testing is administrated by the EPA. Since the EPA has limited resources and we are a market-driven economy, the EPA allows automakers to "self certify" their fuel economy and emissions.

      NOx, which is the smog forming emission that VW violated, is within the EPA's jurisdiction and is regulated by the Clean Air Act.

      Fuel consumption is directly proportional to CO2 emissions. The higher the CO2 emissions, the poorer the gas mileage. It's important to note a gallon of diesel will have slightly higher carbon emissions than a gallon of gasoline due to differences in chemical structure (Gasoline: 4-12 Carbon atoms per molecule, Diesel: 10-15 Carbon atoms per molecule). NOx is not directly correlated to fuel consumption, and in fact lower fuel consumption (leaner burning) can drastically increase NOx emissions. Since CAFE works by fleet averages, an automaker can build a certain amount of vehicles with poor fuel consumption as long as they have a higher number of vehicles with good fuel consumption to offset. There is no allowance like this for NOx.

      So, in light of the EPA's viewpoint or authority to regulate vehicle emissions, a TDI is in fact worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor that gets 12 mpg. The EPA reflects this on the window sticker by giving a Golf TDI a 3/10 score for Smog Forming Emissions compared to the Raptor's 5/10 score. In reality, the truth is much more complex than that, but our political system isn't always so logical.
      This post is a 10/10.

      Oh, and I can attach a picture of the 20 something buy backs sitting in the back of our lot. We also have 20 something brand new TDi's sitting in our holding lot that we start and drive around to stop the lot rot from taking hold.
      < Dan >

      My B5 Thread

    26. Member 1Point8TDan's Avatar
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      04-14-2017 10:32 PM #125
      Quote Originally Posted by tjl View Post
      They would have to implement an approved emissions fix before exporting.
      Seems like VW did not use any lawyers!

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