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    1. Member vr6milz's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 02:14 AM #51
      Quote Originally Posted by Burnette View Post
      That link. Good read.
      Agreed

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    3. 03-21-2017 08:22 AM #52
      Quote Originally Posted by im no hero x View Post
      I thought they had already started crushing them? I've seen several posts in facebook groups with TDIs stacked on top of eachother with no wheels and stuff. I feel disgusted every time I see a new post with pics of them. Poor cars, dude. It kills me the '09 Jetta I sold to my uncle is going to end up like that.
      There has been one set of pictures from one location indicating that. There's no evidence YET that a mass scrapping has begun.

      And that surprises me. If VW attempts to fix and sell all of these, it will overwhelm the market. Certainly a good many of them are not worth selling. The amount that VW would have to sell them for (at wholesale, and taking into account the foreseeable effect of flooding the market with cars to sell) minus what it will cost VW to implement whatever fix is eventually approved, minus the foreseeable cost of the mandatory warranty that VW will be required to place on these cars, minus the cost of whatever unrelated repairs are necessary to make the car sellable (body damage, interior damage, undoing "modifications" and emissions tampering, fixing worn-out clutches, replacing clogged DPFs, etc) minus whatever it costs them to store the car until such time as it can be fixed and sold, minus the car's scrap value, needs to be a positive number. If it isn't, the car isn't worth selling.

      If it were up to me, there ought to have been an initial cull. Anything 2009-2010 unless in exceptional low-mileage condition, anything with more than 100,000 miles, anything with non-trivial body or interior damage, anything with the "check engine" lamp on for a non-trivial reason, ought to have gotten the orange spray-painted "X" of doom and gone directly for scrap instead of being stored for all this time.

    4. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 09:07 AM #53
      Quote Originally Posted by GoFaster View Post
      There has been one set of pictures from one location indicating that. There's no evidence YET that a mass scrapping has begun.

      And that surprises me. If VW attempts to fix and sell all of these, it will overwhelm the market. Certainly a good many of them are not worth selling. The amount that VW would have to sell them for (at wholesale, and taking into account the foreseeable effect of flooding the market with cars to sell) minus what it will cost VW to implement whatever fix is eventually approved, minus the foreseeable cost of the mandatory warranty that VW will be required to place on these cars, minus the cost of whatever unrelated repairs are necessary to make the car sellable (body damage, interior damage, undoing "modifications" and emissions tampering, fixing worn-out clutches, replacing clogged DPFs, etc) minus whatever it costs them to store the car until such time as it can be fixed and sold, minus the car's scrap value, needs to be a positive number. If it isn't, the car isn't worth selling.

      If it were up to me, there ought to have been an initial cull. Anything 2009-2010 unless in exceptional low-mileage condition, anything with more than 100,000 miles, anything with non-trivial body or interior damage, anything with the "check engine" lamp on for a non-trivial reason, ought to have gotten the orange spray-painted "X" of doom and gone directly for scrap instead of being stored for all this time.
      Uhhh, they're still pretty early in the process. They probably want to collect as many buy backs as possible and then process the cars in large batches. I also doubt these will be straight up crushed and stacked in a junk yard. Most likely, high value parts will be removed and resold on the repair market (in the US or abroad). Most everything else will be recycled.

      As far as reselling them, I'm pretty sure VW is smart enough to figure out whether a car is worth retrofitting and reselling or not. I doubt they will "flood" the US market with used TDIs. It's likely only current gen TDIs can be retrofitted. Moreover, they also have the option of exporting retrofitted cars to other markets -- it happens all the time with used cars. Finally, some cars that can be retrofitted may not be simply because of their condition.
      =

    5. Member Dravenport's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 09:08 AM #54
      Quote Originally Posted by robr2 View Post
      Looks more like a parking lot, not a dumping ground. The latter would be a giant pit full of burning cars.
      came for this, leaving disappointed
      Quote Originally Posted by westopher View Post
      If you want to spend a bunch of money for something to look at, buy a painting. I'll happily drive my car til its worth nothing.
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      Since my presence has been requested, Beetlejuice-style, I'll address the current controversy:
      Yes, the Prius is the greatest car ever made.

    6. Member 2 doors's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 09:30 AM #55
      There is also apparently another storage lot at the old Bethlehem Steel site in Sparrows Point outside of Baltimore. My B-I-L saw a car carrier full of VWs heading in there and could see a bunch of cars already parked.

    7. Member Baltimoron's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 10:02 AM #56
      Quote Originally Posted by 2 doors View Post
      There is also apparently another storage lot at the old Bethlehem Steel site in Sparrows Point outside of Baltimore. My B-I-L saw a car carrier full of VWs heading in there and could see a bunch of cars already parked.
      How fitting that VWs eco disasters are being parked at what should be a future superfund site.

    8. 03-21-2017 10:32 AM #57
      I've got no skin in this game. But, I don't know what to feel.

      A person paid for X and got Y. They could have reflashed them all, but then the consumer didn't get what they paid for.

      But the waste, holy cow. It's just shocking. Reminds me of "Fake Plastic Trees". It makes my consumerism guilt feel pretty strong.

    9. Member Ryan1981's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 02:22 PM #58
      Quote Originally Posted by burnthesheep View Post
      I've got no skin in this game. But, I don't know what to feel.

      A person paid for X and got Y. They could have reflashed them all, but then the consumer didn't get what they paid for.
      I disagree. Every single one of them bought those cars for the fuel mileage. And it delivered. Emissions aside, which nobody knew about, the car was as advertised. And even with the emissions being off, I'm willing to bet it's still one of the cleaner cars on the road. Look at all of the trucks, semis, clapped-out Cadillacs, bombed out Oldsmobiles, and smoking Chryslers cruising around. They should just give one of these VWs in exchange for getting some of those bombers off of the road.

    10. Member Stevo12's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 03:32 PM #59
      Quote Originally Posted by im no hero x View Post
      I thought they had already started crushing them? I've seen several posts in facebook groups with TDIs stacked on top of eachother with no wheels and stuff. I feel disgusted every time I see a new post with pics of them. Poor cars, dude. It kills me the '09 Jetta I sold to my uncle is going to end up like that.
      And this is why you never get emotionally attached to cars...

    11. Member vwtool's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 03:49 PM #60
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryan1981 View Post
      And a Cairo, Athens...
      Pronounced KAY-ro and AY-thens, respectively, to go along with Vienna (VAY-enna) and Beaucoup (BUCK-up.) It's as if a determined effort was made to not pronounce any foreign sounds with their mouths.

    12. 03-21-2017 03:52 PM #61
      Quote Originally Posted by vwtool View Post
      Pronounced KAY-ro and AY-thens, respectively, to go along with Vienna (VAY-enna) and Beaucoup (BUCK-up.) It's as if a determined effort was made to not pronounce any foreign sounds with their mouths.
      Furr'n?
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      03-21-2017 04:38 PM #62
      Quote Originally Posted by Ryan1981 View Post
      I disagree. Every single one of them bought those cars for the fuel mileage. And it delivered. Emissions aside, which nobody knew about, the car was as advertised. And even with the emissions being off, I'm willing to bet it's still one of the cleaner cars on the road. Look at all of the trucks, semis, clapped-out Cadillacs, bombed out Oldsmobiles, and smoking Chryslers cruising around. They should just give one of these VWs in exchange for getting some of those bombers off of the road.

      This. I can't believe there is a single TDI driver that was disappointed that their NOx emissions were out of spec. Of all the ways that consumers have been screwed over, why did this get some much traction? I think there is more to the story that we will never know, i.e., some lobbyist persuaded the right person.

      I don't blame anyone for taking the buyout. Who's going to say to no to what was basically a free car for a few years? Still doesn't mean the gov't did the right thing.

    14. Member BongTechnician's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 05:15 PM #63
      If man baby gets his way, Sans EPA, these will be back on the road in no time... exactly as they are.

    15. Member Ryan1981's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 05:27 PM #64
      Quote Originally Posted by Honda_Appliance View Post
      This. I can't believe there is a single TDI driver that was disappointed that their NOx emissions were out of spec. Of all the ways that consumers have been screwed over, why did this get some much traction? I think there is more to the story that we will never know, i.e., some lobbyist persuaded the right person.

      I don't blame anyone for taking the buyout. Who's going to say to no to what was basically a free car for a few years? Still doesn't mean the gov't did the right thing.
      I feel like more appropriate action would have been take action against VW, as they have, but do not buy the cars back. Compensate owners through monetary means or deep discounts on new cars, but still allow these cars on the road. They have just created a bigger mess.

    16. Member Dave, Bro's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 08:39 PM #65
      Instagram : @davexbro \ David Jasneski Photography \ 2.0L \ Lace Up \ Live Low Or Die \ Rochester NH GTG https://forums.vwvortex.com/showthrea...chester-NH-GTG
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      I've never owned a passat

    17. Member dh71704's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 09:28 PM #66
      Quote Originally Posted by CoolWhiteWolfsburg View Post
      How fitting that VWs eco disasters are being parked at what should be a future superfund site.
      The Normal plant where the cars are being stored at was bought by an ELECTRIC car company called Rivian.

      http://www.pantagraph.com/business/l...71b3ec73e.html
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Rabbit, I'd love your meat.
      Quote Originally Posted by jnm2.0t View Post
      Reported.

    18. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      03-21-2017 10:53 PM #67
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      In the US, we don't regulate CO2 as if it were a smog forming emission. Instead, we regulate it through CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy), which was created in response to the Oil Embargo in the 1970s. Why? Probably has a lot to do with politics. At the time, it wasn't widely accepted that CO2 was "harmful" to the environment since we exhale it. So, the EPA wasn't granted authority to regulate automotive CO2 emissions via the Clean Air Act. CAFE is regulated by NHTSA but fuel economy testing is administrated by the EPA. Since the EPA has limited resources and we are a market-driven economy, the EPA allows automakers to "self certify" their fuel economy and emissions.

      NOx, which is the smog forming emission that VW violated, is within the EPA's jurisdiction and is regulated by the Clean Air Act.

      Fuel consumption is directly proportional to CO2 emissions. The higher the CO2 emissions, the poorer the gas mileage. It's important to note a gallon of diesel will have slightly higher carbon emissions than a gallon of gasoline due to differences in chemical structure (Gasoline: 4-12 Carbon atoms per molecule, Diesel: 10-15 Carbon atoms per molecule). NOx is not directly correlated to fuel consumption, and in fact lower fuel consumption (leaner burning) can drastically increase NOx emissions. Since CAFE works by fleet averages, an automaker can build a certain amount of vehicles with poor fuel consumption as long as they have a higher number of vehicles with good fuel consumption to offset. There is no allowance like this for NOx.

      So, in light of the EPA's viewpoint or authority to regulate vehicle emissions, a TDI is in fact worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor that gets 12 mpg. The EPA reflects this on the window sticker by giving a Golf TDI a 3/10 score for Smog Forming Emissions compared to the Raptor's 5/10 score. In reality, the truth is much more complex than that, but our political system isn't always so logical.
      No it is NOT "in fact" worse for the environment.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    19. Member SydBarrett420's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 02:08 AM #68
      There is something to similar to OP'S pics at the port of Tampa, just rows and rows of VW's lined up behind some fences
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    20. Member candy11's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 07:07 AM #69
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      The EPA has compromised with VW and allowed for a fix that brings these cars into "partial" compliance. So that means newer generation TDIs can be fixed and resold domestically or exported.

      For older cars that cannot be fixed, they won't literally be dumped in a junk yard. There is significant value in used parts on the repair market and high value parts can taken off and resold as-is (e.g. body panels, interior parts, electronics like airbags, etc.). For the remaining parts, metallics can be re-melted and recycled. For polymer parts, most thermoplastics can be remelted and recycled. Thermoset plastics (not re-meltable) will likely be ground up and some can be recycled into filler in other products. Since VW is an EU company, likely all plastics above a certain weight threshold have an ISO symbol (e.g. >PP< for polypropylene) applied to them so the recycler can determine whether they're remeltable or not.
      So I guess VW's TDIs will be the new Hummer H1...

    21. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 07:45 AM #70
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      No it is NOT "in fact" worse for the environment.
      Did you even read what I wrote, or selectively zero in on one part of one sentence? If you look at smog forming emissions -- which is all the EPA is allowed to regulate under the CAA -- yes they are in fact worse for the environment than a Raptor in that regards. Even in cheat mode, the TDIs had higher NOx emissions.

      If you want to talk about cradle to grave, well to wheel emissions... That's a lengthy discussion for another thread, because unfortunately our government has decided it isn't worthwhile to give one agency the power to regulate and control that.
      Last edited by BUJonathan; 03-22-2017 at 07:53 AM.
      =

    22. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 09:15 AM #71
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      Did you even read what I wrote, or selectively zero in on one part of one sentence? If you look at smog forming emissions -- which is all the EPA is allowed to regulate under the CAA -- yes they are in fact worse for the environment than a Raptor in that regards. Even in cheat mode, the TDIs had higher NOx emissions.

      If you want to talk about cradle to grave, well to wheel emissions... That's a lengthy discussion for another thread, because unfortunately our government has decided it isn't worthwhile to give one agency the power to regulate and control that.
      Yes I did read and comprehend what you said. Which is exactly why I took issue with your choice of wording. It is not "in fact" worse for the environment. It is DEBATABLE whether or not it is worse than the environment, even in regards to just the NOx. But you didn't say "in that regards" either.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    23. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 10:12 AM #72
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      Yes I did read and comprehend what you said. Which is exactly why I took issue with your choice of wording. It is not "in fact" worse for the environment. It is DEBATABLE whether or not it is worse than the environment, even in regards to just the NOx. But you didn't say "in that regards" either.
      That NOx is smog forming is not debated, sorry. That a TDI, even in cheat mode emits more NOx is also not debatable, sorry.

      Is the EPA's viewpoint potentially too narrow? Probably, but their hands are tied legislatively. Courts ruled they don't have authority to regulate CO2 emissions. So it's not within their authority to tell Ford to stop making Raptors, but is *is* fully within their authority to tell VW to stop making TDIs That's not going to change until we as a country agree the social costs of environmental damage outweigh the market costs of fixing the problem.
      =

    24. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 01:55 PM #73
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      That NOx is smog forming is not debated, sorry. That a TDI, even in cheat mode emits more NOx is also not debatable, sorry.

      Is the EPA's viewpoint potentially too narrow? Probably, but their hands are tied legislatively. Courts ruled they don't have authority to regulate CO2 emissions. So it's not within their authority to tell Ford to stop making Raptors, but is *is* fully within their authority to tell VW to stop making TDIs That's not going to change until we as a country agree the social costs of environmental damage outweigh the market costs of fixing the problem.
      "So, in light of the EPA's viewpoint or authority to regulate vehicle emissions, a TDI is in fact worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor that gets 12 mpg. "

      Smog is not the only measure of environmental impact. So a TDI IS NOT "in fact" worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor. From one VERY NARROW point of view it is worse. Sorry.
      Last edited by Triumph; 03-22-2017 at 02:02 PM.
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

    25. Member BUJonathan's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 05:18 PM #74
      Quote Originally Posted by Triumph View Post
      "So, in light of the EPA's viewpoint or authority to regulate vehicle emissions, a TDI is in fact worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor that gets 12 mpg. "

      Smog is not the only measure of environmental impact. So a TDI IS NOT "in fact" worse for the environment than a Ford Raptor. From one VERY NARROW point of view it is worse. Sorry.
      Again, you're selectively quoting and missing my point. The discussion started because how could the EPA allow something like a Raptor to be sold but ban the TDI. The answer is when it comes to automotive emissions impacts on the environment, the EPA's charter is limited to air quality, not global warming. However, you're not going to convince me NOx is a "narrow" part of that, sorry.

      In a perfect world, the EPA would also regulate emissions which impact global warming (e.g. CO2). Unfortunately, our government can't seem to agree with the scientific community that CO2 causes global warming, so it's not within any government agency's authority to regulate automotive CO2 emissions for global warming. We only regulate it for economic reasons via CAFE. And CAFE inherently has limits on how many gas guzzlers can be built. I stated in my posts this arrangement is not ideal. But within their regulatory power, the EPA is doing their job.

      You can argue what you think the EPA should be doing, but that's a moot point. They're doing what they've been chartered to do since the CAA was passed. The EPA can't regulate beyond their powers.
      =

    26. Member Triumph's Avatar
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      03-22-2017 05:34 PM #75
      Quote Originally Posted by BUJonathan View Post
      Again, you're selectively quoting and missing my point. The discussion started because how could the EPA allow something like a Raptor to be sold but ban the TDI. The answer is when it comes to automotive emissions impacts on the environment, the EPA's charter is limited to air quality, not global warming. However, you're not going to convince me NOx is a "narrow" part of that, sorry.
      You're also missing my point. You stated something as fact, when in fact, it is not. See?
      -Triumph, the Insult Comic Dog

      I saw this in a movie about a bus that had to speed around the city, keeping its speed over fifty, and if its speed dropped, the bus would explode! I think it was called, "The Bus That Couldn't Slow Down."

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