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    1. Member Jim_Coupe's Avatar
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      09-18-2016 12:43 PM #1
      Hi,




      When does Intake Valve opens / close (degrees)

      When does Exhaust Valve opens / close (degrees)

      Take the AEB compared to ADR for example..
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      09-19-2016 10:07 AM #2
      Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Coupe View Post
      Hi,




      When does Intake Valve opens / close (degrees)

      When does Exhaust Valve opens / close (degrees)

      Take the AEB compared to ADR for example..
      I did an overlay several months ago comparing the AEB and ADR cams from catcams website. Stock AEB is in black, ADR (NA) is in red. You can read the cam IVO & EVO events, duration and lift directly from the chart.



      EDIT: I have a bunch of other comparisons, such as: AEB vs 3660, ADR vs 3660, 3651 vs 3658, 3651 vs 3660. I can post if you or others request.
      Last edited by mainstayinc; 09-19-2016 at 10:14 AM.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

    4. Member Gulfstream's Avatar
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      09-19-2016 01:17 PM #3
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      I did an overlay several months ago comparing the AEB and ADR cams from catcams website. Stock AEB is in black, ADR (NA) is in red. You can read the cam IVO & EVO events, duration and lift directly from the chart.



      EDIT: I have a bunch of other comparisons, such as: AEB vs 3660, ADR vs 3660, 3651 vs 3658, 3651 vs 3660. I can post if you or others request.
      You seem like the man to ask: I have 3651's installed which I advanced 3 degrees. Picked up alot of respons and spoolup compared to having them as is from Cat Cams. Any ideas how much advance is too much?

      I don't have time to do this on a dyno unfortunately.
      Largeport 2008cc 9,7:1CR, Catcams 3651, GTX3582R genII 0,82ar + E85 = 723bhp - N I T S -

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      09-19-2016 02:55 PM #4
      Quote Originally Posted by Gulfstream View Post
      You seem like the man to ask: I have 3651's installed which I advanced 3 degrees. Picked up alot of respons and spoolup compared to having them as is from Cat Cams. Any ideas how much advance is too much?
      I don't have time to do this on a dyno unfortunately.
      Below is a overlay of the 3651's (black) and 3658's (red). As you can see, both share the same exhaust camshaft (left curve). However, the 3651's have a significantly smaller intake camshaft (less duration and lift).



      In a turbo application, you want to minimize valve overlap due to reversion of the intake charge back into the intake tract under boost. That's why the 3658's are so slow to spoolup but have a nice top end (large overlap but late closing intake valve). The 3651's, having a smaller intake camshaft, can be advanced a little without too much valve overlap. Stock IVO for the 3651's is at 9 degrees ATDC at 1mm lift. Advancing the IVO by 3 degrees gives you an IVO of 6 degree ATDC which will give you slightly more valve overlap.

      I think you are seeing better response and initial spoolup in your case because increasing valve overlap actually improves cylinder filling off boost. That is the case with an NA application, where you need some valve overlap to help scavenge the cylinder. The absolute maximum advance I would recommend is 13 degrees for the 3651's. That would give you an IVO of 4 degrees BTDC or the same as the 3658's. However, I would not recommend advancing them more than 5 degrees total (giving you an IVO of 4 degrees ATDC) since that would create too much valve overlap.

      The other problem with advancing your intake cam is that it shortens your IVC (intake valve closing) timing. The reason the 3658's make big power is that they have a late closing intake (43 degrees ABDC). That allows the cylinder to trap more air at high engine speeds. The stock 3651 IVC is at 37 degrees ABDC. Advancing the intake cam by 3 degrees shortens your IVC to 34 degrees ABDC.

      Generally, I think that the exhaust cam is way too big for the 3651's and 3658's. There is no reason to have 216 degrees of exhaust duration on a turbo application. For comparison, the stock exhaust duration is 200 degrees. I opted to get the 3660's which have stock exhaust duration and slightly larger intake cam (duration and lift) as compared to the 3651's (see comparison below).



      I plan to use VVT to advance and retard the 3660's so that I can get stock spoolup but with 3658-like top end. Below is a quick overlay of the 3658's (black) and the 3660's (red) with VVT on and off. I will use catcam's adjustable sprocket and a camshaft timing wheel to dial in the timing.

      Last edited by mainstayinc; 09-19-2016 at 03:09 PM.
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    7. Member Gulfstream's Avatar
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      09-19-2016 05:50 PM #5
      Excellent stuff.

      I have a cam wheel which adjust both intake and exhaust cams at the same time. i cannot advance intake alone. Not sure if that helps on the valve overlap?
      Largeport 2008cc 9,7:1CR, Catcams 3651, GTX3582R genII 0,82ar + E85 = 723bhp - N I T S -

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      09-19-2016 06:13 PM #6
      Any help on a mild race cam for 640ish hp and to run with 30psi?
      Not interested in IE.

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      09-19-2016 06:41 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by Gulfstream View Post
      Excellent stuff.

      I have a cam wheel which adjust both intake and exhaust cams at the same time. i cannot advance intake alone. Not sure if that helps on the valve overlap?
      That does make a difference. The nice thing about cat cams is that you can get them with an adjustable sprocket on the exhaust cam as an option. That allows you to change the IVO and EVO timing events independently. So, with just a cam wheel, you cannot increase or decrease valve overlap, just timing for both. Since that's the case, then you could probably 'degree' them with more advance. But, like I said, you loss IVC time ABDC.

      EDIT: Cat Cam adjustable sprocket:

      Last edited by mainstayinc; 09-19-2016 at 07:12 PM.
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      09-20-2016 05:50 PM #8
      Some good info in here

      Nice to see the profiles over laid to, its a lot easier to visualise the differences in the grinds, also interesting to see that my 3660's weren't far off the 3651's

      Be nice to see info like this on the IE grinds?

      Got some more info from an old thread as well that may be worth comparing


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      09-21-2016 09:21 AM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by StaceyS3 View Post
      Some good info in here

      Nice to see the profiles over laid to, its a lot easier to visualise the differences in the grinds, also interesting to see that my 3660's weren't far off the 3651's
      I think the 3660's are a better cam overall as compared to the 3651's. The 3651's loose some spoolup and mid-range due to the large exhaust cam as can be seen from the dyno comparison thread:



      Whereas the 3660's have stock-like spoolup and mid-range, but have big top end (+30 HP over stock):



      The 3651's make slightly more top end horsepower (+5 HP) due to the fact that the IVC event is slightly later (+2 degrees) trapping a little more air on the top end. That is why I want to use VVT with the 3660's. To delay IVC on the top end and make 3658-like power (see below) while retaining stock-like spoolup and mid-range.



      Quote Originally Posted by StaceyS3 View Post
      Be nice to see info like this on the IE grinds?

      Got some more info from an old thread as well that may be worth comparing
      I'd be interested in seeing this. Also, you were the one that turned me onto the "purple cams" from your previous postings.
      The Bible Teaches That Few are Saved. Why Hell Must Be Eternal. Scientific Evidence for God. "The perverse are hard to be corrected, and the number of fools is infinite." (Ecclesiastes 1:15).

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      09-22-2016 04:38 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      I think the 3660's are a better cam overall as compared to the 3651's. The 3651's loose some spoolup and mid-range due to the large exhaust cam as can be seen from the dyno comparison thread:



      Whereas the 3660's have stock-like spoolup and mid-range, but have big top end (+30 HP over stock):



      The 3651's make slightly more top end horsepower (+5 HP) due to the fact that the IVC event is slightly later (+2 degrees) trapping a little more air on the top end. That is why I want to use VVT with the 3660's. To delay IVC on the top end and make 3658-like power (see below) while retaining stock-like spoolup and mid-range.





      I'd be interested in seeing this. Also, you were the one that turned me onto the "purple cams" from your previous postings.
      Haha i feel i may have done some good in the times off all that research and digging i used to do

      Just looking over them again at Bills Catcams grind they specced for him and it looks like hes got the same inlet as 3658 and 3652's but the exhaust is another different grind all together. So many combos out there

      Just wish there was some true hard data about the IE cams.
      Power now ????bhp....was 510hp 463nm previously was also 446bhp & 349 badger torques
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    13. Member Jim_Coupe's Avatar
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      09-23-2016 09:41 AM #11
      Woo hoo.. nice info... im gonna read so my eye bleed... I throwing in the ADR cams this week in my 1.8T Gt2860 just to try.. I got them for free.. But maybe ill try CAT cams later..
      Last edited by Jim_Coupe; 09-23-2016 at 09:44 AM.
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      09-23-2016 12:02 PM #12
      Quote Originally Posted by Jim_Coupe View Post
      Woo hoo.. nice info... im gonna read so my eye bleed... I throwing in the ADR cams this week in my 1.8T Gt2860 just to try.. I got them for free.. But maybe ill try CAT cams later..
      The ADR cams are the way to go! They are virtually the same as the 3660's (see below). The only difference is that the exhaust cam is slightly bigger than the 3660's (duration and lift). But get this, they open 10 degrees earlier on the exhaust stroke. That will help spool your turbo sooner because cylinder pressure is higher at 38 degrees BBDC as compared to 28 degrees when the exhaust valve opens.



      Of course, you will lose 10 degrees on your powder stroke with the ADR cams, but most of your torque production occurs before 90 BBDC. Below is a graph from a spreadsheet I made a while ago that compares the effect of different connecting rod ratios on torque production. Ignoring that comparison for now, you can see where I marked two vertical lines. One at 38 degrees BBDC (ADR) and one at 28 (3660). As you can see, most of your torque curve happens well before the exhaust valve opens. In fact, when I sum up the values of the torque curves, you only lose 2% of your torque curve at EVO=38 degrees BBDC as compared to EVO=28. So, you loose 2% of your power stroke, but gain additional boost pressure due to early EVO with the ADR cams.



      EDIT: I calculated a 2 psi increase in exhaust pressure at EVO=38 BBDC as compared to 28. Assuming you can translate 2 psi exhaust pressure into 1.5 psi boost pressure, that equals more than 10% increase in power. Subtract out the 2% loss on power stroke, equals a total of an 8% increase in power (10% - 2%) with ADR cams alone due to early EVO.
      Last edited by mainstayinc; 09-23-2016 at 12:41 PM.
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      09-23-2016 01:21 PM #13
      Is it possible for us to see the info on IE's street/strip cams presented in this layout? Also, to the guy above asking for info on cams other than IE, can I ask you why you are searching for anything BUT them? (Not arguing or fight picking. I have IE cams and just want to know if there's anything that I need to keep an eye out for)

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      09-23-2016 01:38 PM #14
      Quote Originally Posted by FTMFW View Post
      Is it possible for us to see the info on IE's street/strip cams presented in this layout? Also, to the guy above asking for info on cams other than IE, can I ask you why you are searching for anything BUT them? (Not arguing or fight picking. I have IE cams and just want to know if there's anything that I need to keep an eye out for)
      If someone can post: valve lift, centerline, and duration for the IE cams, I can get a very close estimation of the IE cams and overlay for comparison.
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      09-24-2016 10:20 AM #15
      Found this post: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post10052370

      It gives lift and duration at .05 inches for the IECVA1 & IECVA2, but no centerlines. I can probably work with this information. I'll try to post something in the next few days when I have time.
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      09-27-2016 01:19 PM #16
      I'll dyno my car with Catcams 3651 next monday. Will test zero, 3 and 5 degree advancements to see how it reacts.
      Largeport 2008cc 9,7:1CR, Catcams 3651, GTX3582R genII 0,82ar + E85 = 723bhp - N I T S -

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      09-27-2016 01:37 PM #17
      Quote Originally Posted by Gulfstream View Post
      I'll dyno my car with Catcams 3651 next monday. Will test zero, 3 and 5 degree advancements to see how it reacts.
      I'd be interested to see the results.
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      09-27-2016 02:12 PM #18
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Found this post: http://www.audizine.com/forum/showth...1#post10052370

      It gives lift and duration at .05 inches for the IECVA1 & IECVA2, but no centerlines. I can probably work with this information. I'll try to post something in the next few days when I have time.

      Only things I've found show 270 / 274 degrees (Intake & Exhaust) and .370" / .378" Lift (Intake & Exhaust)

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      09-27-2016 03:15 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by FTMFW View Post
      Only things I've found show 270 / 274 degrees (Intake & Exhaust) and .370" / .378" Lift (Intake & Exhaust)
      Thanks. I searched the internet for the CVA1/2 centerlines with no luck. I then called IE and talked with a tech. He said that they don't publish the centerline data but one can always measure from an actual cam. Without the centerline data, there is really no way I can compare the CVA1/2's with other cams. I can always use the centerlines from the closest Cat Cam, however, this data would be somewhat misleading.

      I did mock up a CVA2 versus 3660 exhaust cam and can say that the IE cam has less lift but longer duration. That would explain why there is a slight sacrifice in spoolup as compared to OEM camshaft (see below).



      However, without knowing the centerline, I have no way of knowing exactly when the exhaust cam opens and closes BTDC. So, it's best to see if someone with IE's CVA1/2 cams is willing to measure and get centerline data. We have lift and duration, but we need centerline.

      The tech at IE said that they don't have any date of availability for the CVA1/2 cams due to the fact that it's very difficult to find a core supplier that meets their strict requirements. However, he did sound hopeful that they will find a supplier at some point and resume production.
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      09-27-2016 03:30 PM #20
      Quote Originally Posted by FTMFW View Post
      Is it possible for us to see the info on IE's street/strip cams presented in this layout? Also, to the guy above asking for info on cams other than IE, can I ask you why you are searching for anything BUT them? (Not arguing or fight picking. I have IE cams and just want to know if there's anything that I need to keep an eye out for)
      Not sure if was me or not this was aimed at?

      Don't worry no offence or anything taken

      Only thing is that what I was informed by someone that had their cams profiled said that the "advertised" figures are no where near actual figures and profile?

      How true it is I don't know? Catcams data seems to be readily available where as IE's aren't? I was previously running Catcams 3660 and researched this for months, never found hard data for IE grinds though and I'm now running the IECVA1's alongside our other car.
      Power now ????bhp....was 510hp 463nm previously was also 446bhp & 349 badger torques
      1/4 mile 11.02secs @ 135 mph Hoping to get into the 10's this year

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      09-30-2016 04:32 PM #21
      Quote Originally Posted by mainstayinc View Post
      Thanks. I searched the internet
      That's a bummer about the centerline data. I understand whey they don't release all the specs, but as soon as they sell 1 set, anyone can measure... If I had thought to while they were out of the car, I'd have been happy to measure! We're a little past that now...

      Quote Originally Posted by StaceyS3 View Post
      Not sure if was me or not this was aimed at?

      Don't worry no offence or anything taken

      Only thing is that what I was informed by someone that had their cams profiled said that the "advertised" figures are no where near actual figures and profile?

      How true it is I don't know? Catcams data seems to be readily available where as IE's aren't? I was previously running Catcams 3660 and researched this for months, never found hard data for IE grinds though and I'm now running the IECVA1's alongside our other car.
      Not originally, but this discrepancy in profile information has my curiosity peaked!! Do you remember if the advertised numbers were above or below actual, or are you still in contact with the person who told you about it?

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      09-30-2016 05:26 PM #22
      Quote Originally Posted by FTMFW View Post
      That's a bummer about the centerline data. I understand whey they don't release all the specs, but as soon as they sell 1 set, anyone can measure... If I had thought to while they were out of the car, I'd have been happy to measure! We're a little past that now...



      Not originally, but this discrepancy in profile information has my curiosity peaked!! Do you remember if the advertised numbers were above or below actual, or are you still in contact with the person who told you about it?
      Yeah I'm in contact with them but there's no way he will release the info.

      Was informed that the cams are a fair bit more aggressive than what the advertised figures are. How true again I don't know?
      Power now ????bhp....was 510hp 463nm previously was also 446bhp & 349 badger torques
      1/4 mile 11.02secs @ 135 mph Hoping to get into the 10's this year

      Pro-Race Engineering Race Team and Company
      https://www.facebook.com/Pro-Race-En...367871/​

    25. 09-30-2016 08:23 PM #23
      Quote Originally Posted by StaceyS3 View Post
      Yeah I'm in contact with them but there's no way he will release the info.

      Was informed that the cams are a fair bit more aggressive than what the advertised figures are. How true again I don't know?
      iECVA2 on cam doctor saw

      218 at .050
      10 more than advertised
      exhaust is 2 more
      and exhaust center lines appear to be offset


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      10-02-2016 08:29 AM #24
      Changed the oil today and had a look at how easy it is to adjust cam timing. Have to unbolt the chargepipe to get to the crank bolt. Not enough time on the dyno to mess with that so I'll have to dyno it as is cam advanced 3 degrees.
      Largeport 2008cc 9,7:1CR, Catcams 3651, GTX3582R genII 0,82ar + E85 = 723bhp - N I T S -

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      10-04-2016 11:38 AM #25
      Quote Originally Posted by StaceyS3 View Post
      Yeah I'm in contact with them but there's no way he will release the info.

      Was informed that the cams are a fair bit more aggressive than what the advertised figures are. How true again I don't know?

      Aw bummer, how come he's not releasing them? I'm actually not mad to know they're more aggressive than advertised! I'd prefer that over them being under-performers...

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