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    1. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 09:19 AM #1
      Hi!
      Building a daily driver TTQ with around 500CHP (EFR 7163, 7500+RPM).
      Would you be dare enough to use the stock pistons (BAM engine code) or would the Mahle PowerPak-s be a better choice?
      "Long" term reliability would be important (car is a DD on the highway), piston slap would be an issue and that is why i am looking into the low expansion direction.
      Thanks for your input!

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    3. Member groggory's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 01:43 PM #2
      If you're already going big on the build, I'd toss in some new pistons with beefier wrist pins. I believe the BAM engine code has 18mm wrist pins. Some powerpak pistons with 20mm tool steel wrist pins and some rifle drilled con rods would make me feel good. From what I understand, the 18mm wrist pins will work fine, but at that power level they'll just fatigue faster than you may like.
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    4. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 02:27 PM #3
      Thanks for your answer Groggory!

      BAM is an european code, but thats one of the latest and strongest 1.8T-s (225HP) with the 20mm wrist pin. I already got the tuscan rods over here, i am just not sure about the pistons.
      I am afraid that the stock 225 (9.0:1 CR) pistons will fail at this power level and they say that these powerpaks arent quite strong either (being only 4032).
      I already own an engine with slapping pistons, I do not need another one .

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    6. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 02:34 PM #4
      Heres the bitch:

      Ran 14.3 @ 96mph 1.9' 60ft with its stock engine.

    7. Member groggory's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 02:58 PM #5
      Quote Originally Posted by Sim View Post
      Thanks for your answer Groggory!

      BAM is an european code, but thats one of the latest and strongest 1.8T-s (225HP) with the 20mm wrist pin. I already got the tuscan rods over here, i am just not sure about the pistons.
      I am afraid that the stock 225 (9.0:1 CR) pistons will fail at this power level and they say that these powerpaks arent quite strong either (being only 4032).
      I already own an engine with slapping pistons, I do not need another one .
      I thought stock pistons or 4032 pistons generally are built with pretty tight wall clearances and so there is less space for the piston to rock/ slap. The downside to the 4032 is less tolerance of knocking and detonation.

      I'd give a call to IE, PagParts, or one of the established builders out there who have some first hand experience. This is above the power level I'm experienced playing in.
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    8. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 03:14 PM #6
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      I thought stock pistons or 4032 pistons generally are built with pretty tight wall clearances and so there is less space for the piston to rock/ slap.
      Yes, exactly that is why i am considering the powerpaks. But if they have no real benefits over on the OEM 225HP pistons i will have to reduce my power goals (which i do not really want to ). E85 also going to be used for the 500hp "race" version, with pump gas (hiway mode) i will be satisfied even with lets say max 400hp. That is the plan.

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      04-12-2016 03:20 PM #7
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      If you're already going big on the build, I'd toss in some new pistons with beefier wrist pins. I believe the BAM engine code has 18mm wrist pins. Some powerpak pistons with 20mm tool steel wrist pins and some rifle drilled con rods would make me feel good. From what I understand, the 18mm wrist pins will work fine, but at that power level they'll just fatigue faster than you may like.
      No, AMU/APX/BEA/BAM engines all used 20mm pins, and have the lowered compression (8.9 vs 9.0:1 depending on source). Yes, I would run those pistons at 500chp all day long, assuming they aren't worn/damaged. No 1.8T had 18mm pins, I'm assuming you mean 19mm from AWW/AWP and the less common Beetle codes that came later. Why would the pistons in question fail at 500chp though? I ran AEB pistons (20mm pins, higher 9.5:1 CR) to well over 500chp with no issues. The 225 pistons will be fine at that power level.

    10. Member groggory's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 03:43 PM #8
      Quote Originally Posted by 20v master View Post
      No, AMU/APX/BEA/BAM engines all used 20mm pins, and have the lowered compression (8.9 vs 9.0:1 depending on source). Yes, I would run those pistons at 500chp all day long, assuming they aren't worn/damaged. No 1.8T had 18mm pins, I'm assuming you mean 19mm from AWW/AWP and the less common Beetle codes that came later. Why would the pistons in question fail at 500chp though? I ran AEB pistons (20mm pins, higher 9.5:1 CR) to well over 500chp with no issues. The 225 pistons will be fine at that power level.
      Thanks for the correction. I'm not thinking clearly today.

      It's not that 500 chp is a magic number. I was actually thinking it was 500 whp....no biggie. I was more thinking along the lines that the 20mm wrist pin is a stouter wrist pin than the 19mm wrist pin for high horsepower use. Arnold at pagparts talked on this subject awhile back and he basically believed that 19mm wrist pins are fine for most builds, but expect them to wear faster as your horsepower starts creeping up.


      I'm going to also vote that the 225 pistons will be fine.
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    11. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 03:47 PM #9
      Quote Originally Posted by 20v master View Post
      Why would the pistons in question fail at 500chp though?
      I am just concerned. It is better safe than sorry you know . This is not going to be a budget build, so if i can increase the reliability with upgraded (non slapping) pistons, i will do it.
      BTW: thanks for your input!!!

    12. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-12-2016 03:49 PM #10
      Quote Originally Posted by groggory View Post
      I'm going to also vote that the 225 pistons will be fine.

    13. 04-13-2016 03:56 AM #11
      You will be fine with 20mm wrist-pinned stock pistons at 500 CHP or even 500 WHP. You already have the rods upgraded so no worries there. Use that money for some iconel exhaust valves (the next weak point in the motor's internals).
      http://www.ftdmotorsports.com
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    14. Member Elcroato's Avatar
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      04-13-2016 04:08 AM #12
      On a similar note, do you think AGU pistons will be okay at 500chp? They are 20mm wrist pins I believe.
      2000 Skoda Octavia 1.8T, mods: Revo Stage II, 4 bar FPR, INR tranny and engine mounts, 3" Draft 42 catless turbo back exhuast, vRS front bumper
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    15. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-13-2016 04:59 AM #13
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      You will be fine with 20mm wrist-pinned stock pistons at 500 CHP or even 500 WHP. You already have the rods upgraded so no worries there. Use that money for some iconel exhaust valves (the next weak point in the motor's internals).
      Yes of course the exhaust valves will be replaced, along witn the whole valvetrain (springs, retainers, followers, cam gear, ...), all this in a big port AGU head with the SEM manifold.

      EDIT: according to the EFR 7163 compressor map and the fact that E85 will also be used, even the 600chp mark could be reached i think. With this in mind, would you still feel comfortable with the oem pistons? 600 hp is not the primary goal, but you know how it is: if everything works OK at 500chp, .......
      Last edited by Sim; 04-13-2016 at 05:09 AM.

    16. 04-13-2016 05:39 AM #14
      ^^ Yeah mate, I would still use the stock BAM piston at 600 CHP.
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    17. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-13-2016 06:04 AM #15
      Quote Originally Posted by Marcus_Aurelius View Post
      ^^ Yeah mate, I would still use the stock BAM piston at 600 CHP.

    18. Former Advertiser AL@PagParts.com's Avatar
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      04-13-2016 09:53 AM #16
      Its not so much the pistons in question as the stockers are of decent composition albeit with less margin for error on the tuning side. Its the wrist pins you really need to worry about. Engine knock at this level of power and the deflecting pins can result in mushroomed pin bushings and ovalized pistons. Better safe then sorry. I've kicked myself on several occasions in the past...

    19. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-13-2016 11:35 AM #17
      Thanks!
      Knock is not really an issue with E85 so i am not concerned about it (or about the tune) at all. Pump gas power will be reduced (not exceeding 400chp).

    20. Member luchos's Avatar
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      04-14-2016 08:37 AM #18
      I use my stock pistons(BEA engine code) with upgraded brute rods from PagParts and a PTE5857 revving to 8500rpms with no issues whatsoever. I would not bother with pistons on stock displacement if you have upgraded rods.

    21. Member Sim's Avatar
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      04-14-2016 03:12 PM #19
      Quote Originally Posted by luchos View Post
      I use my stock pistons(BEA engine code) with upgraded brute rods from PagParts and a PTE5857 revving to 8500rpms with no issues whatsoever. I would not bother with pistons on stock displacement if you have upgraded rods.

      Will disassemble the engine and check how the stockers look like.

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