Fourtitude.com - Tesla Model 3 prototype revealed - On-sale in late 2017 with a 215-mile minimum range and a base price of $35,000
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    1. 02-04-2020 04:25 PM #7226
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Ok, so I just watched the whole video and here is my basic summary:

      1) If you lease and give the car back --> resale doesn't matter. (Obvious)
      2) Dubious Tacoma/Gladiator example. Aren't Gladiators not doing very well?
      3) If you keep a car 10+ years, it won't be worth much anyway --> resale doesn't matter. (Debatable and highly dependant on the car.)
      4) Total cost of ownership is more important to focus on. (??? Ok; that doesn't mean resale isn't a factor. It literally is one of the factors of TCO.)
      5) MSRP vs. what you actually paid affects resale value. (Also Ok; that doesn't mean resale isn't important. This is just a calculation argument.)
      6) He again brings up fuel economy to justify the TCO argument in that it is more relevant than resale value.
      7) He concludes by basically admitting that resale value is important after the resale proposition starts making sense (between 3-8 years roughly).

      He makes a lot of good points that all car owners should be aware of, but has not convinced me that resale is not important. Is he actually just talking about difference between KBB values and the like and real-world values, or resale value as a whole? I don't get it, personally.
      Anyone who purchased a Gladiator prior to the recent $9000 off sale, will take an extra dose of depreciation if they try to sell/trade in soon.

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    3. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      02-04-2020 04:41 PM #7227
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Ok, so I just watched the whole video and here is my basic summary:

      1) If you lease and give the car back --> resale doesn't matter. (Obvious)
      2) Dubious Tacoma/Gladiator example. Aren't Gladiators not doing very well?
      3) If you keep a car 10+ years, it won't be worth much anyway --> resale doesn't matter. (Debatable and highly dependant on the car.)
      4) Total cost of ownership is more important to focus on. (??? Ok; that doesn't mean resale isn't a factor. It literally is one of the factors of TCO.)
      5) MSRP vs. what you actually paid affects resale value. (Also Ok; that doesn't mean resale isn't important. This is just a calculation argument.)
      6) He again brings up fuel economy to justify the TCO argument in that it is more relevant than resale value.
      7) He concludes by basically admitting that resale value is important after the resale proposition starts making sense (between 3-8 years roughly).

      He makes a lot of good points that all car owners should be aware of, but has not convinced me that resale is not important. Is he actually just talking about difference between KBB values and the like and real-world values, or resale value as a whole? I don't get it, personally.
      1. Doesn't resale value affect lease rates? If a car has poor resale then you'll have higher lease rates to cover the difference, no?
      2. Current run rate is 16K units per quarter which is below the 25K FCA had targeted (they gave a 100K yearly figure). Plus side is the trucks that do sell are high price loaded versions.
      3. For a regular DD type car, that's generally right.
      4. 100% and it's ridiculous to not factor in depreciation. I owned my GTI for almost 6 years and 65K miles which I'd call an average ownership period. It cost me $1,900 in maintenance but $15,000 in depreciation. You can't just pretend that doesn't exist.
      5. Agreed, it's a side note but not a main argument.
      6. Nope. Using my GTI example...25mpg combined over 65K at a high CA rate of $3.60/gal still only gets you $9300 in gas. Way less than depreciation.
      7. It's a click bait video.
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

    4. Member Elite_Deforce's Avatar
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      02-04-2020 04:45 PM #7228
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      1. Doesn't resale value affect lease rates? If a car has poor resale then you'll have higher lease rates to cover the difference, no?
      2. Current run rate is 16K units per quarter which is below the 25K FCA had targeted (they gave a 100K yearly figure). Plus side is the trucks that do sell are high price loaded versions.
      3. For a regular DD type car, that's generally right.
      4. 100% and it's ridiculous to not factor in depreciation. I owned my GTI for almost 6 years and 65K miles which I'd call an average ownership period. It cost me $1,900 in maintenance but $15,000 in depreciation. You can't just pretend that doesn't exist.
      5. Agreed, it's a side note but not a main argument.
      6. Nope. Using my GTI example...25mpg combined over 65K at a high CA rate of $3.60/gal still only gets you $9300 in gas. Way less than depreciation.
      7. It's a click bait video.
      Yeah. I love Alex, I think he has class and has a good format. But he either isn't explaining his premise very well or is just click-baiting like you said.
      Quote Originally Posted by Sonderwunsch View Post
      People have been complaining about modern BMWs lacking steering feel so they are adding torque steer.
      Quote Originally Posted by Ernie McCracken View Post
      I don't trust the judgment of anyone who likes black wheels.
      Quote Originally Posted by BRealistic View Post
      I find it ironic that long time Euro brand fans would assume long term reliability issues would destroy any love of a unique product.

    5. 02-04-2020 04:55 PM #7229
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      Hawk always looks at the bottom line price (taxes in) which I don't think is a bad thing. But he also ticks every option box to get there (despite buying a PDK 991 without Sport Chrono ).

      Model 3 Performance - $75,990
      Black $1,300
      FSD $9,200
      Subtotal = $86,490
      13% HST = $11,243.70
      Total = $97,733.70

      Must have added the $1,300+tax white interior too. Didn't think he got anything not in black
      Exactly! You know me too well.

      $97,000CDN for the performance of a Lamborghini and the looks of an Accord.

    6. 02-04-2020 04:56 PM #7230
      Quote Originally Posted by Mike! View Post
      (Despite buying a PDK 991 without Sport Chrono.)
      They always push Sports Chrono soooo hard! F*&k Sports Chrono.

    7. Senior Member Mike!'s Avatar
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      02-04-2020 05:03 PM #7231
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      They always push Sports Chrono soooo hard! F*&k Sports Chrono.
      But launch control! You'd probably still have it if you had that.

      I kid a bit but you specced base, auto, without any of the go-fast options then were surprised it wasn't as thrilling as you wanted.

    8. Senior Member chucchinchilla's Avatar
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      02-04-2020 05:10 PM #7232
      Quote Originally Posted by Hawk View Post
      Exactly! You know me too well.

      $97,000CDN for the performance of a Lamborghini and the looks of an Accord.
      I guess it comes down to what you care more about, looks or performance. Honestly in a daily driver I don't think it matters that much, besides while inside the car you have plenty of tech gadgetry things to keep you entertained in addition to insane acceleration. I see these cars once every two minutes while driving the roads here in Silicon Valley and surprisingly I'm not tired of seeing them. Sharp but inoffensive, good portions, not fussy, does the job. I'm even okay with the duckbill hood. The one thing I can't get over is thankfully an easily fixed detail should I ever buy a Model 3...the black hubcaps. Even if they end up looking like a food processor attachment, I think they look better painted silver. In either case, I'd love to see them do an updated design.
      Quote Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
      This forum is more and more of an embarrassment every day...

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      02-04-2020 05:19 PM #7233
      Question is, can you handle driving a $100k car that has build quality of a 1990s Kia?

      https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...ual-1822678045


    10. 02-04-2020 05:28 PM #7234
      Quote Originally Posted by aleksl View Post
      Question is, can you handle driving a $100k car that has build quality of a 1990s Kia?

      https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...ual-1822678045

      Build quality has apparently improved since those early cars. I've noticed the doors are way better aligned on showroom cars versus the first ones I saw on the street . . .

    11. 02-04-2020 05:45 PM #7235
      And the firm quoted is once of the biggest cheerleaders for Tesla out there.

    12. 02-04-2020 05:59 PM #7236

    13. Member smoothsix's Avatar
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      02-04-2020 10:33 PM #7237
      ^^^ that guy figured out how to get a Model 3 over the $100kCDN threshold
      Supercar owners: If your housekeeper can afford to register their car in your state, so can you.
      We've got an amazing country; don't like the taxes in your state, you can just move. How many other countries have this freedom?

    14. Member Unilateral Phase Detractor's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 10:21 AM #7238
      Quote Originally Posted by aleksl View Post
      Question is, can you handle driving a $100k car that has build quality of a 1990s Kia?

      https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...ual-1822678045

      I'm a Tesla skeptic, but I'll acknowledge that things seem to have improved some since the debut in 2017. The cars today aren't perfect by any means, but the people buying them don't care. Initial reports of the China built 3 also show a huge improvement since they had an opportunity to redesign some of the more boneheaded engineering choices prior to Job 1 there.

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      02-05-2020 10:31 AM #7239
      Quote Originally Posted by Elite_Deforce View Post
      Ok, so I just watched the whole video and here is my basic summary:

      1) If you lease and give the car back --> resale doesn't matter. (Obvious)
      2) Dubious Tacoma/Gladiator example. Aren't Gladiators not doing very well?
      3) If you keep a car 10+ years, it won't be worth much anyway --> resale doesn't matter. (Debatable and highly dependant on the car.)
      4) Total cost of ownership is more important to focus on. (??? Ok; that doesn't mean resale isn't a factor. It literally is one of the factors of TCO.)
      5) MSRP vs. what you actually paid affects resale value. (Also Ok; that doesn't mean resale isn't important. This is just a calculation argument.)
      6) He again brings up fuel economy to justify the TCO argument in that it is more relevant than resale value.
      7) He concludes by basically admitting that resale value is important after the resale proposition starts making sense (between 3-8 years roughly).

      He makes a lot of good points that all car owners should be aware of, but has not convinced me that resale is not important. Is he actually just talking about difference between KBB values and the like and real-world values, or resale value as a whole? I don't get it, personally.
      My takeaway from the video wasn't so much that resale value doesn't matter at all, just that the difference in resale between similar vehicles generally isn't enough to make a huge difference by comparison. The point about all the resale rankings being calculated from MSRP rather than ATP is a biggie. It's a little clickbaity but the takeaway I got from it seemed legit. Most cars don't deviate much from the typical depreciation curve of their respective segments; it's just a matter of where you are getting on and off said curve.

    16. Senior Member AZGolf's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 12:00 PM #7240
      Quote Originally Posted by chucchinchilla View Post
      1. Doesn't resale value affect lease rates? If a car has poor resale then you'll have higher lease rates to cover the difference, no?
      2. Current run rate is 16K units per quarter which is below the 25K FCA had targeted (they gave a 100K yearly figure). Plus side is the trucks that do sell are high price loaded versions.
      3. For a regular DD type car, that's generally right.
      4. 100% and it's ridiculous to not factor in depreciation. I owned my GTI for almost 6 years and 65K miles which I'd call an average ownership period. It cost me $1,900 in maintenance but $15,000 in depreciation. You can't just pretend that doesn't exist.
      5. Agreed, it's a side note but not a main argument.
      6. Nope. Using my GTI example...25mpg combined over 65K at a high CA rate of $3.60/gal still only gets you $9300 in gas. Way less than depreciation.
      7. It's a click bait video.
      You do not understand the point, and are demonstrating this by only looking at YOUR car. It's about shopping between different cars, not looking at only your car. Let me demonstrate:

      Let me demonstrate:
      Chucchinchilla's VW GTI:
      $15,000 depreciation
      $9300 in gas
      $1900 maintenance
      $3000 in license, tags, registration, etc (estimate, $500/yr over 6 years)
      $7200 in insurance (estimate, based on $100/month for 6 years)
      $1766 in interest ($30,000 loan, 6 years, 1.9%)
      Total cost of ownership: $38,166

      Let's say we compare this against a Mustang Ecoboost that has collector value (go with me here) and thus 5% better resale value retention but higher cost to fuel, insure, and maintain (due to all those smokey burnouts):
      Ecoboost Mustang:
      $13,500 depreciation
      $10,230 in gas
      $2500 maintenance
      $3000 in license, tags, registration, etc (estimate, $500/yr over 6 years)
      $8280 in insurance (estimate, based on $115/month for 6 years)
      $1766 in interest ($30,000 loan, 6 years, 1.9%)
      Total cost of ownership: $39,276

      So even with $1500 better resale value the Mustang could end up costing over $1000 more. Does that make the GTI a better car? I don't know, we're only talking about $1100 over the course of 6 years for a difference in cost on vehicles where the TCO is close to $40,000.

      That's the point of the video. Resale value is just one piece of the TCO equasion and not the biggest piece even with only a 6 year ownership. The longer you own, the more that things like repairs, maintenance, and cumulative cost of registration and gas will vastly outstrip depreciation, but even at 6 years we see depreciation as 34 to 39% of the TCO: less than 4/10ths.

    17. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 12:44 PM #7241
      Quote Originally Posted by AZGolf View Post
      That's the point of the video. Resale value is just one piece of the TCO equasion and not the biggest piece even with only a 6 year ownership. The longer you own, the more that things like repairs, maintenance, and cumulative cost of registration and gas will vastly outstrip depreciation, but even at 6 years we see depreciation as 34 to 39% of the TCO: less than 4/10ths.
      I wonder how an SR+ Model 3 will fair in your equation within that 6-year time frame. Do we think depreciation will treat it kindly as new tech evolves? Personally I think so because even today, there really isnt a sporty/quickish 250 mi EV. I think the competition is still out years that can match an SR+.
      Slow Car Fast

    18. Member Galrot's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 01:44 PM #7242
      Quote Originally Posted by aleksl View Post
      Question is, can you handle driving a $100k car that has build quality of a 1990s Kia?

      https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...ual-1822678045

      It's a probably a poorly suited cars for car enthusiasts that apparently primarily cares about reliability, interior quality and the amount engine noise it makes. However it's a nice car for the general public like mr Koenigsegg that are probably more interesting in performance and sportiness. Different strokes for different people and all that.
      Last edited by Galrot; 02-05-2020 at 01:48 PM.

    19. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 01:52 PM #7243
      Quote Originally Posted by Galrot View Post
      It's a probably a poorly suited cars for car enthusiasts that apparently primarily cares about reliability, interior quality and the amount engine noise it makes. However it's a nice car for the general public like mr Koenigsegg that are probably more interesting in performance and sportiness. Different strokes for different people and all that.
      Slow Car Fast

    20. Member titleist1976's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 01:58 PM #7244
      Quote Originally Posted by Galrot View Post
      It's a probably a poorly suited cars for car enthusiasts that apparently primarily cares about reliability, interior quality and the amount engine noise it makes. However it's a nice car for the general public like mr Koenigsegg that are probably more interesting in performance and sportiness. Different strokes for different people and all that.
      All that and my wife is tired of paying for gas all of a sudden. We had the stupid Pilot for 10 years. I showed her the total in gas we put into it and a light bulb went off.

      I'm keeping the Porsche for my sanity.

    21. 02-05-2020 02:37 PM #7245
      Quote Originally Posted by titleist1976 View Post
      All that and my wife is tired of paying for gas all of a sudden. We had the stupid Pilot for 10 years. I showed her the total in gas we put into it and a light bulb went off.

      I'm keeping the Porsche for my sanity.
      I don't know how it is in the Model 3 but in the Bolt EV, "fuel costs" and even "total fuel usage" are not directly quantifiable like gasoline purchases. The car gives me an average miles/kWh (currently 3) and miles/kWh since last full charge (currently 4.8) but that doesn't really tell me how many kWh I've used since I bought the car since it had 2500 miles when I got it. I can't just look at my electric bill and say I used XX kWh in the car since my average home kWh usage varies due to weather and other factors. But I do know one thing, even at 3 miles/kWh, the Bolt only costs me 4.3 cents/mile ( just 2.7 cents/mile at the higher 4.8 m/kWh figure). My Colorado (or the Cayman) costs at least 13 cents/mile in fuel costs. I'm putting most of my miles on the Bolt at this point.

    22. Member Tommietank's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 02:42 PM #7246
      Quote Originally Posted by spockcat View Post
      I don't know how it is in the Model 3 but in the Bolt EV, "fuel costs" and even "total fuel usage" are not directly quantifiable like gasoline purchases. The car gives me an average miles/kWh (currently 3) and miles/kWh since last full charge (currently 4.8) but that doesn't really tell me how many kWh I've used since I bought the car since it had 2500 miles when I got it. I can't just look at my electric bill and say I used XX kWh in the car since my average home kWh usage varies due to weather and other factors. But I do know one thing, even at 3 miles/kWh, the Bolt only costs me 4.3 cents/mile ( just 2.7 cents/mile at the higher 4.8 m/kWh figure). My Colorado (or the Cayman) costs at least 13 cents/mile in fuel costs. I'm putting most of my miles on the Bolt at this point.
      Is your level 2 charger smart? Most of them connect to wifi and log everything like my chargepoint. Example below.

      Slow Car Fast

    23. 02-05-2020 02:51 PM #7247
      Quote Originally Posted by Tommietank View Post
      Is your level 2 charger smart? Most of them connect to wifi and log everything like my chargepoint. Example below.

      Didn't spend the extra $200-$300 on a smart charger for home. Didn't seem truly important to know. Cost-benefit ratio just didn't add up. I also haven't used any paid public chargers either, so I can't log those costs either. But I have used a free charger at a supermarket once. The other times I tried the charger was taken by a Tesla or a Leaf.

    24. Senior Member 6cylVWguy's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 02:53 PM #7248
      Quote Originally Posted by aleksl View Post
      Question is, can you handle driving a $100k car that has build quality of a 1990s Kia?

      https://jalopnik.com/tesla-model-3-t...ual-1822678045

      You're not buying any tesla for the build quality or attention to detail. They aren't actual luxury cars, but they cost the same. You are buying the tech and the somewhat novel approach to transportation. At this point, buying a tesla now is like buying a higher end PC in the 90s.

    25. 02-05-2020 03:55 PM #7249
      Quote Originally Posted by 6cylVWguy View Post
      You're not buying any tesla for the build quality or attention to detail. They aren't actual luxury cars, but they cost the same. You are buying the tech and the somewhat novel approach to transportation. At this point, buying a tesla now is like buying a higher end PC in the 90s.
      It seems thought that Tesla does in fact have an advantage over the field when it comes to energy utilization. Someone suggested they're a decade ahead of everybody else. I don't think it's that much, and I certainly don't believe their technology gap is widening, but the proof is in the pudding, and we've all seen the not very good at all range numbers the EPA assigned to the Taycan (Turbo S???) . . .

    26. Member titleist1976's Avatar
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      02-05-2020 09:33 PM #7250
      So my antsy wife called to get an update on when the car will be delivered. We ordered it on 1/5/2020 with a 4-7 week expected delivery. It's been updated to the second week of March. Wtf. Missed it by that much!

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